Hi thread! I have a few questions about strategy/sideboarding with this deck
Vs jeskai control, which is the best way to win? So far I have not been able to win a single game. I've tried siding in decays (for queller), sin collector, lead the stampede and siding out chords but it doesn't seem like it's enough.
In the mirror, which cards do you usually side out? finks? I know that finks isn't the best there because infinite life is almost worthless but there are situations where you want to be attacking / don't want to be attacked, and finks is awesome at doing so.
Also, which is the consensus best way of beating valakut decks? I've tried siding 2 burrenton, and I've thought about magus of the moon, but they all seem too low impact... Sin collector is a card too, but even lower impact. Apart from going burrenton/selfless into druid, vizier, duskwatch I haven't found a way to win. So I don't know if I should board more burrenton/selfless effects or if I should go with mindcensor/moon kind of cards...
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Oct 7, 2017Questions for everyone the thread, about some topics that I strugglePosted in: Aggro & Tempo
Storm - Of course cards like eidolon of rhetoric are amazing but my SB plan feels weak. I got to cast T2 RIP and still lost to a million goblins, next game he countered my removal spell with apostle's blessing and I died to two grapeshots. My SB was
+2 searing blaze
+2 Rest in peace
I'm currently running no path to exile, partly because I don't like SB slots that don't deal damage and partly because I'm testing for team unified GP and I won't have path available there. Still, in this matchup, the difference between path and blaze should be negligible, aside from the apostle's blessing case. I've seen some sideboards running mindbreak trap but the card is really narrow and it doesn't even win you the game. I thought about having some wraths in the sideboard, like slagstorm (if it isnt useful you can cycle it for 3 damage) but it's probably too expensive and cute.
Artifact destruction - I'm currently running straight RW (4 vantage 5 mountains 2 foundry 9 fetchlands) because I love how this version can avoid dealing damage to itself. Problem is, that without green, you need other cards to sub destructive revelry. I currently have 3 fragmentize and 2 smash to smithereens, which is decent but I don't know if I would do better with 4 revelries in the sideboard and changing the manabase. In addition to this, smash to smithereens is super awkward, does someone know when do we want them? Vs chalice I only bring fragmentize (the truly dangerous chalice is x=2), maybe smash is better vs affinity? What other artifacts does this deck want to kill?
Sep 25, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from mftb »
What should we bring against Knightfall then? RIP, Paths and Palms (Palms only if we are on the draw)?
Good knightfall players will side out the combo (too slow and painful), so you shouldn't worry about that. Knightfall's manabase is super painful (fetch+shocking is almost always mandatory, that + canopy) so burning face is the best plan. I would side a few paths (for knight and ooze), maybe one or two palms but definitely stay away from RIP/cage effects, they do nothing, a lava spike is better.
Sep 24, 2017@elconquistador1985 great primer! Lots of great information, but two thingsPosted in: Aggro & Tempo
1) I think that the SB section promotes oversideboarding in some matchups. I can't speak about all of them, but vs knightfall (which I've played a ton) you should never bring cage in. it doesn't hit enough cards, any burn spell should be better than it.
2) Have you thought about running the numbers on vexing devil? I like how your analysis reveals the common conception about creature quality (goblin guide is the best one, then eidolon and so on) and it would be great to see where vexing devil falls.
Sep 19, 2017@blueduck70 congrats on the 5-0! Also, congrats on getting your list published. This new 5-0 policy is awfulPosted in: Midrange
2cmc thalia is an okay choice I think. Newer lists were cutting the two drops and in my testing, playing almost any configuration of 2 drops until a total of 8 makes this deck considerably better. It doesn't matter if it's lotus cobra, thalia, selfless, third ooze/qasali/voice, it will be better than any three drop. I'm personally not a fan of thalia in modern but I can see it being good in various matchups (shadow, living end, the synergies with queller...). I also see no problem with playing thalia maindeck.
I would never go below 4 queller though. The number of times I've cast queller to then receive a handshake by my opponent...
Mindcensor should be in the sideboard I think, and in higher numbers, if you want that kind of effect. Mindcensor is at its best turn 2, so I would advice 2-3 copies if that's how you want to fight the valakut matchup.
I'm interested in your reasoning for stony silence/surgical extraction though. Surgical is a pretty narrow card in this deck (no thought scour, only one ghost quarter, our removal exiles, no discard, no snapcaster) and I only played it when I expected facing griselbrand reanimator decks. Stony is a good card but I think gaddock is a better card in this deck.
Sep 18, 2017Posted in: MidrangeQuote from LuisGobern »I'm just not sold on the current SBoards for traditional Knightfall, if you guys could share yours.
I have several posted if you check my post history (one is in this same page). Most of them are pretty similar.
What don't you like about knightfalls SB? I might be able to help more if you share your questions and concerns
Sep 18, 2017Yesterday played a pptq with a 3-1 start, had bad tiebreakers and had to play while everyone else drew (and I lost the win and in, sad panda)Posted in: Midrange
Took some ideas from older lists (lotus cobra, 8 2cmc creatures, more vendilion, more tracker). I felt pretty confident about this list, only issues were the ones that this deck always has (sometimes plays a little too fair, manabase is 4 colors with 3 colorless lands and 1 painland so there are games that you lose by not having your colors or because you take a beating just by fetch shocking + horizon canopy). Those two issues made me play lotus cobra, and it was decent actually! Got some free ooze activations, fixed my mana and some opponents were super scared about it so they spent good cards at removing it, which made resolving better creatures easier.
Jeskai ascendancy (2-0)
Eldrazi tron (1-2)
Living end (2-1)
Jeskai control (1-2)
On another topic: I just bought GW elves, so I'll be able to test games with that deck. I think that it's a better vizier shell than knightfall, but I have yet to test more
Sep 14, 2017Posted in: MidrangeQuote from taopaipai8 »Last pptq result with traditional knightfall a dissapointing 1-3 drop.
Bw eldrazi 2-0:a few mistakes of my opponent and cocos gave me the victory.
Grixis ds 0-2:no cocos neither pte. Removal for all my creatures (including two of them for finks), and ds+ds. 3 reflectors didn't help.a
Elves 0-2: one of the worst pairings in my opinion. Both games he win without attacking, with shaman and chord for shaman.
Uw control 1-2: gideon won game 1 for him, Game 2 coco son the game. Game 3 vendilion show me his hand: 2 supreme verdict, 2 path, d-sphere. He won with gideon again.
For the next one I'm trying to decide between traditional again or humans knightfall.
Disappointing result but sometimes it happens. Mind sharing your list?
Sep 11, 2017Posted in: MidrangeQuote from Dreadnaught33 »So RPD and others with the vizier discussion--
What reasoning did Mr. Chew have on why regular knightfall is better?
Heres my quick argument for the combo- Having access to infinite mana on turn 3 pretty consistently is pretty awesome IMHO. I'm failing to see why people don't see that getting these instant wins is crazy. Having played with the druid/vizier thing in this shell and in abzan, people get scared and defensive when they see you're on the combo, so much so that sometimes they start giving up on their own plan to try to stop you, which is a true power. They know one company on their end step can end the game, same with chord, or just letting a druid resolve on turn 2 and live. It's insane the power we have and the combo is game breaking if you can sink it into dusk watch, chaining wit to company or chord, ballista, or in the knight version kessig (rhonas if you want). Many ways to get there, and only about like 5% of the time have i had infinite mana with nothing to do with it which are odds I'll take.
I'm guessing one argument is that all these creatures suck on their own, which is true- but with chord, company, ewit you can reassemble pretty easily to be honest, and outside of somebody surgicaling your druid and company in the same game (this happened to me once and I got the win anyways) you can get there eventually.
second argument I'd guess---Spell Queller. The card is great of course, but not good enough for me to give up free wins and I've have trouble in my meta at least having them live to see the light of day.
Regular knightfall is so fun to play and if you like interacting or grinding more than thats great, but if you like winning the combo makes too much sense to deny to me.
He didn't give me any reasons (didn't ask about them, just asked which GWx coco deck he felt was better positioned, since he plays all of them except abzan) but I kind of agree with that. In an unknown metagame, I think that classic knightfall can do better than vizier. It isn't like you are removing the 2 drops and adding the combo - you're changing the whole structure and gameplan (no queller, chord, witness, no path...) and that changes how lots of matchups play out. You get lots of percentage points vs tron and valakut, but you lose them vs burn, shadow and random interactive/grindy decks.
In the end, this is always a meta question. Here in Spain (and in Europe in general, AFAIK) "unknown meta" means lots of interactive and grindy decks. We had a day 1 metagame breakdown of a recent big tournament here and +60% were GBx/UBx decks. In this conditions, I'm much more willing to take something resilient to discard and removal. I know that other places of the world have more tron/valakut/noninteractive decks and I can see how you prefer something that wins fast.
Sep 11, 2017Posted in: MidrangeQuote from FoodChainGoblins »I am actually very unsure about whether Vizier Knightfall is better or not. I haven't had time to play test it yet and since I keep drawing well with Knightfall, I am having a lot of fun with it!
I just talked with Kelvin Chew and he thinks that regular knightfall is better than vizier knightfall right now. I'll continue to play regular knightfall for this pptq season, just trying to guess the best SB configuration.
Sep 6, 2017Opt is great. As I said before, my experience with this deck is limited but the early turns were sketchy (mostly T1, sometimes T2) and I would often be stuck on lands/useful spells. I understand the arguments against serum visions, but opt is just perfect. About chalice, having only one maindeck copy and then searching it with fabricate/trinket mage is useful against a really narrow slice of the metagame. For chalice, the earlier the best and a T4 chalice on one isn't that scary. Thus, I think that 4 opt main and 3-4 chalice sideboard (to swap them when needed) is's crazy.Posted in: Control
Thirst for knowledge is an amazing card and I would continue to play 4. Opt is there to smooth the early turns, thirst is to refuel in the latter turns, both are needed.
I agree that snapcaster looks better now with opt, but two blue mana is still a lot for this deck and playing only one is probably still correct.
Sep 3, 2017I'm not very well versed in this deck but I recently picked it up and have one question that doesn't seem to be answered. Why no serum visions? Ran some test games and the deck was much more smooth after it. I think about this deck just like mono blue control with an eventual jump in the available mana (suddenly going from 4 to 9 mana, for example) and serum goes with that plan perfectly. It's probably wrong because no one plays that card here but I'm interested in knowing why it's that way.Posted in: Control
Oh, and ballista overperformed. There were games where I could go "mono ballista control", holding counters + ballista activations, eventually throwing all counters to the face and then academy ruins it back. Explosives were nice too, and synergistic with the trinket/tolaria plan, but my version struggled to produce more than two colors (I had UW and UB talisman, gemstone cavern and river of tears). I thought about adding gemstone mine or spire of industry, but they don't go too well with the overall plan and are awkward at times. I would like to be able to play explosives for three without major struggles.
Aug 20, 2017Nice tournament! How did the control and shadow matchups feel? When I tested abzan vizier they were miserable, but this deck is a whole different story, I might try some games with it.Posted in: Midrange
If you plan on cutting rhonas, what do you plan to do with the infinite mana? just duskwatch to draw a new hand and kessig? Wouldn't you add a ballista at least?
Aug 19, 2017I ran some test games with the GP Sao Paulo winning list, just to gauge how good or bad those interesting card decisions impacted the game. I'll comment my impressions and do a quick report to raise discussion herePosted in: Midrange
Lose 1-2 vs titanshift
Lose 1-2 vs titanshift
Both rounds went in a similar fashion. Won one game due to the combo, lost the other ones because I didn't have enough answers. Here I missed gaddock teeg a lot, he's worth 1.5 or 2 counterspells (even though breach has fallen out of favor, new lists include chandra/nahiri/hour of promise so it's still as usefull)
Won 2-0 vs burn
Maindeck kitchen finks helped a lot game one. Game two variance hits and my opponent mulligans into oblivion and loses.
Won 2-0 vs BG tron
While the other matchups felt the same or even worse than with my list, here I really felt much better. Big Thalia buys at least one turn, ceremonious rejection is as good as expected and three retreats made going for the combo much more likely.
Sejiri was never useful, and one game it was detrimental because I drew it. I was able to kill without kessig perfectly fine, but kessig is a good magic card and I like running it. Having forest instead of canopy and island instead of botanical lead to some mulligans because I didn't have the right colors, which felt bad. I think that the conventional manabase is strictly better.
Games played in a really weird way without more two drops (this list only has 3). Games were like "play a dork and hope that it doesn't die, play a 3 drop and hope it doesn't die" and if that didn't happen I would loose lots of tempo. Selfless was decent though, I'm not playing it right now in my list but I would reconsider it if the meta somehow changes.
Three retreats were amazing vs tron and valakut (as expected) and I was able to combo more frequently than usual. I drew multiples a few times, which wasn't optimal, but the combo kills outweighed the multiple retreat draws. I think that maybe the third retreat could be played in the sideboard... I think that the first two copies of retreat serve a different function than the third and fourth copies, and it wouldn't be crazy to include those latter copies in the sideboard of more stock lists, "defying" the usual "play all retreats maindeck" advice.
Big Thalia was amazing vs tron, and I expect her to be good vs eldrazi too (I'm not sure if I want her vs grixis shadow, I would need to test more). Anyway, Thalia looks like it's replacing reflector mage, and I prefer reflector over Thalia without a doubt. Three trackers is obviously overkill, I have no idea why the pilot thought that he needed so many of them.
Path to exile
One path was moved to the sideboard to make room for all those three drops. The consensus is that knightfall needs more removal than 4 path, not less. Anyway, this list looks particularly skewed to fight certain matchups (like tron, eldrazi and valakut) and when thinking about it that way, it makes sense. Anyway, for an open meta I would play 4 path maindeck.
Having 3 ceremonious+3 flashfreeze has the same effect as the stock counter suite (2-3 unified will + 2 negate), while being more efficient vs valakut/eldrazi and being worse vs random decks. Revoker is one weird inclusion, and I would love to know what deck he tries to fight on that angle. Same for fracturing gust, was he expecting lots of lantern control or bogles? that card is too slow vs affinity to be worth it.
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