Hi guys, I know we are in slightly unfavorable against eldrazi decks, they have 3 big titans that most frustrates us. TKS ripped our hand, taking our protection spell. A top deck drowner come down really pressuring us. Putting down 2 little guys and could make our threats tap anytime. A great hit from smasher could be really hurt us taking 5 damage.
The real plan against them is play thoughtseize first before they lay down their eldrazis? What our plan against them?
I am surprised you want Liliana against Merfolk, I feel like they are too fast and if you can keep their board in check you can usually kill them pretty fast, because they are either chump-blocking or taking huge amount of damage.
As for Stubborn Denial against Dredge, it's not great, but countering an early Reunion is pretty big and making sure they can't just Conflegrate you for the win is also important. I think you either win with very fast beat-downs, preventing them from dredging or them getting unlucky. Or you TBR for the win, but both instances more often than not you want your life total to be pretty low so that you actually have more threats in the for of Shadow.
Hi, thanks for reply Liliana is there for mid/late game after the board has stabilized against merfolk. We has lot of kill spells for their creature (4 push, 2 terminate, 2 anger, 4 snap for direct kill. 2 bolt, 2 kolaghan, 2 brutality if they have 0 or 1 lord. Liliana with kill spell/creature protection as backups would kill them slowly. Liliana could able take down a cursecatcher or silvergill single hand without any lord in board but that is a least scenario.
For dredge I think you have your meaning, stubborn denial is great vs conflagrate since it could kill us in an instance when we are already lower our own life. I would add denial and out wraith probably. But, I might be mistake.
I guess red is more important to us than white atm. I cant't miss out kolaghan's command with snap. Thats only grixis stuff and only grixis can access this looping. Secondly, anger > path for me for handling go wide decks.
Against merfolk, I would add 2 terminate, 2 liliana, 2 anger, 2 brutality. Taking out 2 stubborn denial, 4 wraith, and possible with TBR also. I am the control role here.
Against dredge, I would add 2 anger, 2 spellbomb, 2 surgical, 1 TBR. Siding out 4 push, 2 bolt
I saw Butakov playing two Lightning Bolts as well, I am wondering what the reasoning is behind that, more often than not I find my Lightning Bolts dead and very, very rarely better than Fatal Push. I guess in the mirror there is a threat of Bolt into Snapcaster.
Did anyone try out Jace, Vryns? I wonder why nobody is playing him, he seems good for match-ups which tend to go longer.
I think Bolt is here to stay, 2 is the correct number, some of players play 3. Sometime we need bolt more than push for dealing with nasty planeswalker such as liliana, or karn. Besides, late game bolt-snap-bolt could be win you some games by reduce your opponent 6 life.
I guess baby Jace is there for grind matchups, but we already have liliana, the last hope to be more appropriate who fit well in our strategies more than Jace.
Hmmm, just come out a little bit homework about the match ups nanalysis about Death's shadow Grixis. Feel free to look at it and give some opinion about it.
A. Unfavor Match Ups
1. Go Wide Strategies decks with Replaceable Creatures (Elves, Revolt Zoo, Dredge)
2. Control decks which High Disruption and Removals (UW Control, Eldrazi Taxes, UB Faeries, Jeskai/Grixis/Esper Control, W/R Sun & Moon, Lantern Control)
I currently don't own Liliana, the last hope. I replaced 2 sb spot with a painful truth and second anger of the god. Want to get some opinion, is she really impact lot to the grindy matchups much? Before I decide to buy over her. Thanks.
She is great on the grindy matchups for sure. It's one of the ways for you to not lose. If they have access to Abrupt Decay things aren't that crystal clear. It's great vs Infect. They can't win if you untap with LtLH in play. It's great against CoCo decks as well.
Thanks for reply. Against deck that go wide such as elves and dredge. Is it best to play her in game 2 for her +1 ability?
I currently don't own Liliana, the last hope. I replaced 2 sb spot with a painful truth and second anger of the god. Want to get some opinion, is she really impact lot to the grindy matchups much? Before I decide to buy over her. Thanks.
Hi guys, wanna ask that what do you think about rakdos charm over nihil spellbomb in the sb options? Literally, pros are that there are multiple effect that fit in sb that can deal with decks that go wide, deal with problematic artifacts and a grave hate presence as an instant speed. Cons are it cost 1 more compared to spellbomb and it doesn't kill creatures with its cost. Do you think that its pros > cons, and strong enough to replace nihil spellbomb?
I don't think Dredge is that bad of a matchup after losing GGT. Sure, they can nut draw us out of the game, but that doesn't seem to happen all that often anymore.
I don't bring in Path vs Dredge, I just try to race. I go -4 Eidolon +1 Skullcrack +2 Relic +1 Deflecting Palm.
Hi, thanks for reply I begin to understand that racing against them might be better than play control (path, RIP) They could easily come back in maybe one or two turn later and remain in high hp since we don't burn them at beginning. My thought is go aggro with them by arrangement mana for proper burn spell is very important and try to utilise every single mana without leaving unused mana against them I guess. I would -4 eidolon -2 lavamancer +2 relic +2 palm +2 skullcrack.
Match 1: Lantern Control (2-0)
Been think its good matchup since it takes some time for him to set up his stuffs. Game 1 his first play was ancient stirring for first turn followed by lantern. Goblin Guide hit for 2 was my first play. He played thoughtseize rip an eidolon from my hand. All my burns are straight to his face. Game 2 was lantern first. I hit him with guide on turn 1 and follow with lavamancer but later he lock my attack with bridge. Revelry really did its job in this game here. Luckily didn't saw any collective brutality.
In: 4 revelry, 1 grudge Out: 4 blaze 1 lavamancer
Match 2: Abzan Company (2-1)
Opponent was a close friend and we always play together where he knows my deck and I know his too. My thought is 50-50 matches is just I burn him to death or he hit his infinite life first. Game 1 he played bird. I swing him with guide for 2. He immediately gain 2 with finks turn 2 with tapping mana dorks. All my burn spell was his face leaving his mana dorks in play. I was fast with early hasty creature and mid late with burns before he could take action to his plan. Game 2 I kept with 2 swiftspear 1 guide with 3 lands. I was lack of burn spells and he had for a spellskite and a wall of root to block my creatures and I lacked of burns by holding few lands in my hand. Play relic but didn't saw any finks so I crack it but drew nothing. Eventually died to a pumped tireless trekker and selfless spirit. Game 3 I started with guide and spike. He fetched shock to stabilize his colour left him to 7 life. I hold 2 charm and topdecked a fetches and go for the kill!
Match 3: Dredge (0-2)
The matches was horrible. Been lost to dredge twice before and never won against this deck. I immediately know what he is playing once he play turn 1 faithless looting. Turn 1 I played a guide and take him to 18. He dredged and swarmed his board with 9+ power on turn 3 and I was unable to bring him down as he is 11 life. Game 2 I bring in all my paths and relics. He played faster than his previous game and swarmed his horde on turn 2. The end, he killed me with a flashbacked conflagrate for 10 damage (filled his hand with life from loam) Saw him bring his Vengeful Pharaoh against early creature. He mentioned that guide actually gave him lands for later used for conflugrate fuel. Well, didn't saw any gnaw to bone that we hate to see -__-
Dredge is one of decks that go aggro faster than us and for me is hard to play against is fact that I admitted LOL. Might try play RIP instead of relic but might not stop them goldfish in turn 2 as well.
I would try the new harsh mentor and play 2 copy, big possibility would in sideboard than mainboard
Infinite mana wins with: Chord or Recruiter or Balista on top of classic Kiki+Angel with Evolutions that accidentaly works very well with finks + vizier
How is removal a problém? You chord for Duskwatch and simply play every green creature or win with ballista through removal
I wish you luck in testing.
I have personally found problems with what to do with large amounts of mana, but if you find a way to make it work.
I guess it works actually. Given infinite G mana are successful combo out and the hand has chord/recruiter/ballista could go for the win. Using infinite G mana to chord/recruit to cast an infinite power Ballista and simply remove that infinite counter and go for the kill. Even removal such as path can't stop this since we can respond the removal by slowly remove all counter in Ballista. But this doesn't safe in counterspell/discard heavy decks. And devoted druid or vizier are easy to remove also if shield doesn't active.
Hi guys, how do you all play against rw sun and moon. They able to turn 1 play chalice for one, thanks to simian spirit guide. Chalice for 1 followed by chalice for 2 is really annoying and pretty unbeatable. In sideboarding game, they bring in leyline against us also. I feel that I only have 4 revelry and not enough to destroy chalice, leyline and blood moon. Any tips that could help?
Hi, is anyone still build the UR version of this deck? Splashing 3 colour seems quite difficult to play kiki for his 2RRR but still saw a number playing UWR kiki in mtgtop8. Any thought?
What are the generally accepted bad matchups for Burn? I'm trying to choose a secondary deck to play, and I would like a deck that has even to positive matchups against the decks that are good against Burn. So far I'm thinking about Affinity, Merfolk, and DNT. Potentially DSJ as well. I guess Soul Sisters as well, but I can't remember the last time I saw that deck.
Hmm, deck that could access to big creature very fast such as tasigur, rhino, smasher can be bad for burn preboard as well.
I try the discard version and non-discard version. I really love the non-discard more than discard one since, grixis kiki play in a tempo way rather holding or topdecked a discard card in hand. Discard is more a negative tempo playstyle whereby "twin" is a tempo deck.
The real plan against them is play thoughtseize first before they lay down their eldrazis? What our plan against them?
Hi, thanks for reply
For dredge I think you have your meaning, stubborn denial is great vs conflagrate since it could kill us in an instance when we are already lower our own life. I would add denial and out wraith probably. But, I might be mistake.
Against merfolk, I would add 2 terminate, 2 liliana, 2 anger, 2 brutality. Taking out 2 stubborn denial, 4 wraith, and possible with TBR also. I am the control role here.
Against dredge, I would add 2 anger, 2 spellbomb, 2 surgical, 1 TBR. Siding out 4 push, 2 bolt
I think Bolt is here to stay, 2 is the correct number, some of players play 3. Sometime we need bolt more than push for dealing with nasty planeswalker such as liliana, or karn. Besides, late game bolt-snap-bolt could be win you some games by reduce your opponent 6 life.
I guess baby Jace is there for grind matchups, but we already have liliana, the last hope to be more appropriate who fit well in our strategies more than Jace.
A. Unfavor Match Ups
1. Go Wide Strategies decks with Replaceable Creatures (Elves, Revolt Zoo, Dredge)
Best Cards:
-Board Wipes (Anger, Flaying Tendrills, Kozilek's Return, Izzet Statiscaster, EE)
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Damage Penetration Cards (Temur Battle Rage)
-Dredge: Grave Hate (Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical, Rakdos Charm)
2. Control decks which High Disruption and Removals (UW Control, Eldrazi Taxes, UB Faeries, Jeskai/Grixis/Esper Control, W/R Sun & Moon, Lantern Control)
Best Cards:
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall)
-Modal Spells (Kolaghan’s Command, Collective Brutality, Liliana Last Hope or Veil)
-Flexi-ness Cards (Serum Vision, Snapcaster Mage)
-Sun & Moon, Lantern Control: Artifact Hate (Kolaghan’s Command, Rakdos Charm)
3. High Damage Deck with Fast Life Deduction (Burns, 8rack)
Best Cards:
-Discard (Inquisition, Collective Brutality)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall, Kolaghan’s Command)
-Life Gain (Collective Brutality)
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate)
B. Even Match Ups
1. Go Wide Strategies Deck with Irreplaceable Creatures (Merfolk, Affinity, Abzan Company, Kiki-Chord)
Best Cards:
-Board Wipe (Anger, Flaying Tendrills, Kozilek's Return, Izzet Statiscaster, EE)
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Damage Penetration Cards (Temur Battle Rage)
-Affinity: Artifact Hate (Kolaghan’s Command, Rakdos Charm)
-Abzan Company: Grave Hate, Card Selection (Surgical, Rakdos Charm)
2. Big Mana decks with Mid Game Creatures (EldraTron, Bant Eldrazi, Breach Titan, Gx Tron)
Best Cards:
-Land Destruction (Fulminator, Molten Rain, Crumble)
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize) + Card Selection (Surgical Extraction)
-Damage Penetration Cards (Temur Battle Rage)
-Eldrazis: Board Wipe, Single Removal (Terminate, Dismember)
3. Midrange Deck with Fair Strategies (Jund / Abzan Midrange, Bant Knightfall, Skred, Grixis Delver)
Best Cards:
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall)
-Modal Spells (Kolaghan’s Command, Collective Brutality, Liliana Last Hope or Veil)
-Flexi-ness Cards (Serum Vision, Snapcaster Mage)
4. Midrange Death’s Shadow Decks with Distruption (Death’s Shadow Jund/Abzan)
Best Cards:
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspell (Stubborn Denial)
-Modal Spells (Kolaghan’s Command, Collective Brutality, Liliana Last Hope or Veil)
-Single Card Selection (Surgical + Snapcaster Mage)
-Damage Penetration Cards (Temur Battle Rage)
-Lingering Soul Hate (Surgical Extraction, Izzet Statiscater, Nihil Spellbomb, Rakdos Charm)
C. Favor Match Ups
1. Non-go Wide Strategies Decks with Single or Few Creature (Infect, Griselbrand)
Best Cards:
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall)
-Griselbrand: Grave Hate (Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical, Rakdos Charm)
2. Combo Decks with Spell-Oriented (Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam, Living End, UR Storm)
Best Cards:
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall)
-Single Card Selection (Surgical Extraction)
-Living End: Grave Hate (Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical, Rakdos Charm)
Thanks for reply. Against deck that go wide such as elves and dredge. Is it best to play her in game 2 for her +1 ability?
Hi, thanks for reply
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
Spells (26)
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
2 Lightning Helix
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Inspiring Vantage
2 Mountain
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skullcrack
Match 1: Lantern Control (2-0)
Been think its good matchup since it takes some time for him to set up his stuffs. Game 1 his first play was ancient stirring for first turn followed by lantern. Goblin Guide hit for 2 was my first play. He played thoughtseize rip an eidolon from my hand. All my burns are straight to his face. Game 2 was lantern first. I hit him with guide on turn 1 and follow with lavamancer but later he lock my attack with bridge. Revelry really did its job in this game here. Luckily didn't saw any collective brutality.
In: 4 revelry, 1 grudge Out: 4 blaze 1 lavamancer
Match 2: Abzan Company (2-1)
Opponent was a close friend and we always play together where he knows my deck and I know his too. My thought is 50-50 matches is just I burn him to death or he hit his infinite life first. Game 1 he played bird. I swing him with guide for 2. He immediately gain 2 with finks turn 2 with tapping mana dorks. All my burn spell was his face leaving his mana dorks in play. I was fast with early hasty creature and mid late with burns before he could take action to his plan. Game 2 I kept with 2 swiftspear 1 guide with 3 lands. I was lack of burn spells and he had for a spellskite and a wall of root to block my creatures and I lacked of burns by holding few lands in my hand. Play relic but didn't saw any finks so I crack it but drew nothing. Eventually died to a pumped tireless trekker and selfless spirit. Game 3 I started with guide and spike. He fetched shock to stabilize his colour left him to 7 life. I hold 2 charm and topdecked a fetches and go for the kill!
In: 2 Relic, 4 Path, 2 Skullcrack Out: 4 Eidolons, 1 Spike, 1 rift bolt
Match 3: Dredge (0-2)
The matches was horrible. Been lost to dredge twice before and never won against this deck. I immediately know what he is playing once he play turn 1 faithless looting. Turn 1 I played a guide and take him to 18. He dredged and swarmed his board with 9+ power on turn 3 and I was unable to bring him down as he is 11 life. Game 2 I bring in all my paths and relics. He played faster than his previous game and swarmed his horde on turn 2. The end, he killed me with a flashbacked conflagrate for 10 damage (filled his hand with life from loam) Saw him bring his Vengeful Pharaoh against early creature. He mentioned that guide actually gave him lands for later used for conflugrate fuel. Well, didn't saw any gnaw to bone that we hate to see -__-
In: 2 Relic, 4 Path, 2 Skullcrack (Struggle to bring palm or not) Out: 4 Eidolon, 2 Swiftspear, 1 Lavamancer, 1 fetches
Dredge is one of decks that go aggro faster than us and for me is hard to play against is fact that I admitted LOL. Might try play RIP instead of relic but might not stop them goldfish in turn 2 as well.
I would try the new harsh mentor and play 2 copy, big possibility would in sideboard than mainboard
I guess it works actually. Given infinite G mana are successful combo out and the hand has chord/recruiter/ballista could go for the win. Using infinite G mana to chord/recruit to cast an infinite power Ballista and simply remove that infinite counter and go for the kill. Even removal such as path can't stop this since we can respond the removal by slowly remove all counter in Ballista. But this doesn't safe in counterspell/discard heavy decks. And devoted druid or vizier are easy to remove also if shield doesn't active.
Hmm, deck that could access to big creature very fast such as tasigur, rhino, smasher can be bad for burn preboard as well.
I try the discard version and non-discard version. I really love the non-discard more than discard one since, grixis kiki play in a tempo way rather holding or topdecked a discard card in hand. Discard is more a negative tempo playstyle whereby "twin" is a tempo deck.