How do you guys usually play against burn? It's one of this decks's really hard matchups.
Previous 3 post has mention the best way we could do. SB game I would goes for -4 Wraith, -2 Thoughtseize, +2 Collective Brutality, +2 Denial, +1 Kozilek's Return, +1 Kolaghan's Command.
I've had good success with TBR:ing our delve guys, so I would disagree that it depends on DS being in play.
There is an inherent risk to the card, being 2 for 1'd is a legitimate concern. I tend to board out my TBR against decks where this is likely to happen, unless they also run a card like Lingering Souls. I'm constantly reassessing the card on the basis of not many top players using it in Grixis Shadow, but so far it's been well worth its salt.
I agreed that TBR is godlike card because the surprise effect that run out of opponent's expectation and directly kill him in one hit. I used to have 1 in MD and 1 in SB. I have experienced that I hold it for long time just to seek the opportunity to go off the 1 HIT KO tactic, however it could stay in my hand for long time and I was hoping it to be another card that allow me to control board or a cantrip card that I need. So I decided to only play 1 in my SB and 0 MB.
I think it is good for:
-anti-lingering soul (abzan midrange, DS Jund with white splash, BW tokens), eldrazi scion (bant eldrazi)
-spellbased combo (Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, Storm, Turns)
-swarm deck (affinity, elves, revolt zoo, fish, company deck)
But it might be bad in:
-control deck with blue counters (UW, Grixis control, Esper, Jeskai Nahiri)
-hand disruption (Jund, 8 rack, Esper, Shadow mirrors)
I guess I'm not explaining my line well enough. Please note that this is a specific fringe case where you are holding both a counter and a Surgical, since the spell needs to not resolve for this to work. I'll try to explain it better step by step.
1. They cast Past in Flames
2. You crack a fetch land, hold priority and cast Stubborn Denial on PiF.
3. PiF is countered and goes to the graveyard.
4. With the fetch ability still on the stack, you cast Surgical Extraction on Past in Flames.
Since everything from step 2 onwards happens in response to the fetch, they can't flashback PiF.
I guess it works this way if I am not mistaken:
Scenario 1: He has Past in Flame, I have Stubborn Denial and Surgical.
1. He cast Past In Flame, and goes to stack, priority pass to me.
2. I respond with Stubborn denial on PiF. PiF goes to graveyard. I hold priority. I cast Surgical on Past In Flames.
(Result: He doesn't cast upper part and lower part of Past In Flame, and exile by Surgical.)
Scenario 2: He have Past in Flame, I have Surgical only.
1. He cast Past in Flame, and goes to stack, priority pass to me.
2. I pass priority.
3. Past in Flame resolves. He hold priority. He flashback Past in Flame. Past in Flame goes to stack and no more in graveyard. He pass priority.
4. I can't cast Surgical on Past in Flame due to no target in graveyard.
(Result: He cast upper and lower part of Past In Flame.)
I guess doesn't matter in respond to fetches. Its more on passing priority and timing. An active player whose current taking his/her turn have priority first before another player.
Scenario 1 cannot happen. in Scenario 1 step 2. When PiF is countered, the Storm player retains priority until he moves phases or he casts another spell/activates an ability. Therefore, if, after he gets his first PiF countered, and he then immediately flashes back PiF, we do not have a window to cast Surgical Extraction
Scenario 2 shouldn't happen since casting two PiFs in one turn seems unlikely, but in this case we never get priority back if he casts PiF back to back, as described in Scenario 1
What gizlow says is correct and the procedure is a bit nuanced.
1. They cast PiF
2. I crack a fetch and announce that you are holding priority (realistically, this could be any activated ability like maybe a Tasigur activation, doesn't matter. You need the fetch activation to make sure an ability is on the stack until this procedure is complete).
3. cast Stubborn Denial on PiF, countering that spell. there is no point holding priority here. if you do, it will just leave stubborn denial targeting pif on the stacm
3. PiF is countered by Stubborn Denial and is now in the graveyard. Having retained priority, the only ability on the stack is once again the fetchland activation
4. you can now surgical his PiF. he has no window to flashback his PiF, because PiF can only be flashed back any time a sorcery can be cast, but because the fetchland is still on the stack, sorceries cannot be cast. You've now successfully Extracted all PiFs, and the fetchland activation finally resolves
Ah, I begin to understand, I made some mistake here :). Thanks for pointing out
I guess I'm not explaining my line well enough. Please note that this is a specific fringe case where you are holding both a counter and a Surgical, since the spell needs to not resolve for this to work. I'll try to explain it better step by step.
1. They cast Past in Flames
2. You crack a fetch land, hold priority and cast Stubborn Denial on PiF.
3. PiF is countered and goes to the graveyard.
4. With the fetch ability still on the stack, you cast Surgical Extraction on Past in Flames.
Since everything from step 2 onwards happens in response to the fetch, they can't flashback PiF.
I guess it works this way if I am not mistaken:
Scenario 1: He has Past in Flame, I have Stubborn Denial and Surgical.
1. He cast Past In Flame, and goes to stack, priority pass to me.
2. I respond with Stubborn denial on PiF. PiF goes to graveyard. I hold priority. I cast Surgical on Past In Flames.
(Result: He doesn't cast upper part and lower part of Past In Flame, and exile by Surgical.)
Scenario 2: He have Past in Flame, I have Surgical only.
1. He cast Past in Flame, and goes to stack, priority pass to me.
2. I pass priority.
3. Past in Flame resolves. He hold priority. He flashback Past in Flame. Past in Flame goes to stack and no more in graveyard. He pass priority.
4. I can't cast Surgical on Past in Flame due to no target in graveyard.
(Result: He cast upper and lower part of Past In Flame.)
I guess doesn't matter in respond to fetches. Its more on passing priority and timing. An active player whose current taking his/her turn have priority first before another player.
Some of the ruling question, if my death's shadow has attached spirit link. My life is 2, so my death's shadow is 11/11. My opponent is at 15 life. I declare attack (without any blocker) and play temur battle rage. I remember that spirit link: Whenever enchanted creature deal damage,you gain that much of life. Do my shadow with double strike dealt 22 damage and kill opponent? Or first/double strike damage phase, shadow dealt 11 damage. Spirit Link goes to stack. Spirit Link resolves. Opponent gain life to 26 life. Followed by regular damage phase, opponent gain life again. It works first or another one?
About ruling question: Does Liliana, tLH still can +1 given no creature in the board?
Yes. The +1 is up to one creature, so you can choose zero creatures if none are on board or only you have creatures on board.
Does it means that it gonna target one creature on board and has to be my creature if my opponent doesn't have a creature. And, if both of us doesn't have any creature, she still +1 loyal counters. Just that the activated ability go to stack and fizzled itself only.
Just started following this thread, so pardon my n00bishness for the following query:
Is Apostle's Blessing worthy to be in the 75? It protects and pumps...
Its good that we could take 2 damage to give protection to our creature. But if our life is too low (below 5 life) is quite risky. Stubborn denials and discard worked well here. Denial can hit other spell based combo and burn too.
Hey guys I'm working on my deck for a modern tournament coming up in 2 weeks that I really want to do well in. I'll post my current deck, sideboard, cards I have and some decks I know will be there ahead of time. this is my first post so I hope I formatted it correctly.
decks I know for sure will be there
boggles (we had a guy come in and win an entire tournament with boggles so now at least 3 other players always bring boggles. why I have liliana of the veil in my side)
naya burn
naya zoo
colorless eldrazi
bant eldrazi
sun and moon
jund
abzan company
naihiri control
death's shadow jund
storm
at least 2 affinity
martyr proc
titan shift
any help or advice would be really appreciated.
also what is the opinion on shivan reef
Hmm, seems interesting with 1 Liliana, tLH without bolt in maindeck. I would try the list. Just feel that we are less and less bolt-snap-bolt, but more on push-snap-push. In sb, i would +1 Liliana coz she can win by herself if with a creature/denial protection. Probably +brutality coz of burn, affinity, storm is so popular in your meta. I would also replace kozilek return to anger for abzan company.
For shivan reef is bit bad card coz its damage is bit slow. In 1 turn it only deal 1 damage whereby fetch shock able to deal 3 and fast turn on death's shadow in the same turn.
My main complaints with Grixis are 1) like all Shadow versions, we are heavily reliant on the graveyard, and 2) it feels like we're one or two threats short of where we need to be. 1) can't really be solved for any of the shadow variants as far as I'm aware, though if you manage to pull that off you've possibly built the best deck in the format, bar none. 2) may be solvable. My first forays into Grixis shadow (starting with Esper really) were with 8 delve creatures, 0 Snapcasters, and more air (Mishra's Bauble). I don't think this is the way to go, but maybe taking a step in that direction is a good idea. I might try shaving 1-2 Snapcasters for 1-2 delve creatures. And also probably shaving a K Command for something cheaper to help support the extra pressure on the graveyard.
I've definitely noticed #2 as well, and another part of that is that sometimes it can be difficult to play out multiple delve creatures if you haven't seen enough Thought Scours. This has been especially true for me in long, drawn out games where my creatures are dying. Just to throw out some other possibilities: Enigma Drake, Cryptic Serpent, Kiln Fiend, Thing in the Ice... Can't think of anything else off the top of my head.
We can't play Enigma Drake and Cryptic Serpent because our yard is getting eaten by the Delve creatures all the time, or flashbacked by Snapcaster mage. Kiln Fiend we can't play, because we have no Mutagenic Growth. Thing in The Ice can't reliably flip with no Phyrexian Spells and if you wanted to play it you should replace Street Wraith with something else.
The only viable solution if you want more threats is one: Delver Of Secrets. And that's debatable.
Hmm, a threat not neccessary a creature. A planeswalker like Liliana could it be?
Beatable, but very difficult. Doesn't help that they run main board Unlife which is one of the best Burn hate cards. Leylines usually come in post board as well.
Beatable, but very difficult. Doesn't help that they run main board Unlife which is one of the best Burn hate cards. Leylines usually come in post board as well.
4 leyline 3 unlife and we only have 4 revelries. If same time leyline and unlife on board i would remove unlife first. Early game creatures and attarka's command and boros charm as creature damage increase might be the game plan here i think.
What are generally the tough matches for Burn? First game and then after the sides rotate in. I notice an significant difference there in the limited matches I experienced.
For starters, Ad Nauseam is almost unwinnable.
Ad nauseam is beatable. First thing you must do is disrupt their mana generator. 4 revelries do much job here. They are good destroying unlife, prism and lotus.
Use mostly instant speed burn spell instead of sorcery speed.
Previous 3 post has mention the best way we could do. SB game I would goes for -4 Wraith, -2 Thoughtseize, +2 Collective Brutality, +2 Denial, +1 Kozilek's Return, +1 Kolaghan's Command.
I agreed that TBR is godlike card because the surprise effect that run out of opponent's expectation and directly kill him in one hit. I used to have 1 in MD and 1 in SB. I have experienced that I hold it for long time just to seek the opportunity to go off the 1 HIT KO tactic, however it could stay in my hand for long time and I was hoping it to be another card that allow me to control board or a cantrip card that I need. So I decided to only play 1 in my SB and 0 MB.
I think it is good for:
-anti-lingering soul (abzan midrange, DS Jund with white splash, BW tokens), eldrazi scion (bant eldrazi)
-spellbased combo (Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, Storm, Turns)
-swarm deck (affinity, elves, revolt zoo, fish, company deck)
But it might be bad in:
-control deck with blue counters (UW, Grixis control, Esper, Jeskai Nahiri)
-hand disruption (Jund, 8 rack, Esper, Shadow mirrors)
Ah, I begin to understand, I made some mistake here :). Thanks for pointing out
I guess it works this way if I am not mistaken:
Scenario 1: He has Past in Flame, I have Stubborn Denial and Surgical.
1. He cast Past In Flame, and goes to stack, priority pass to me.
2. I respond with Stubborn denial on PiF. PiF goes to graveyard. I hold priority. I cast Surgical on Past In Flames.
(Result: He doesn't cast upper part and lower part of Past In Flame, and exile by Surgical.)
Scenario 2: He have Past in Flame, I have Surgical only.
1. He cast Past in Flame, and goes to stack, priority pass to me.
2. I pass priority.
3. Past in Flame resolves. He hold priority. He flashback Past in Flame. Past in Flame goes to stack and no more in graveyard. He pass priority.
4. I can't cast Surgical on Past in Flame due to no target in graveyard.
(Result: He cast upper and lower part of Past In Flame.)
I guess doesn't matter in respond to fetches. Its more on passing priority and timing. An active player whose current taking his/her turn have priority first before another player.
Mulligan. No one drop creature, plus its too slow. Probably need to topdeck every turn. It would be tougher if against mirror, affinity, or eldrazis.
Thanks for posting your videos magicdownunder always love your video and get to learn what card to side in and out. Appreciate it lot!
Does it means that it gonna target one creature on board and has to be my creature if my opponent doesn't have a creature. And, if both of us doesn't have any creature, she still +1 loyal counters. Just that the activated ability go to stack and fizzled itself only.
Its good that we could take 2 damage to give protection to our creature. But if our life is too low (below 5 life) is quite risky. Stubborn denials and discard worked well here. Denial can hit other spell based combo and burn too.
Hmm, seems interesting with 1 Liliana, tLH without bolt in maindeck. I would try the list. Just feel that we are less and less bolt-snap-bolt, but more on push-snap-push. In sb, i would +1 Liliana coz she can win by herself if with a creature/denial protection. Probably +brutality coz of burn, affinity, storm is so popular in your meta. I would also replace kozilek return to anger for abzan company.
For shivan reef is bit bad card coz its damage is bit slow. In 1 turn it only deal 1 damage whereby fetch shock able to deal 3 and fast turn on death's shadow in the same turn.
Thanks for the post I guess sb against living end shall be same as dredge except that -2 TBR, +2 collective Brutality
Hmm, a threat not neccessary a creature. A planeswalker like Liliana could it be?
4 leyline 3 unlife and we only have 4 revelries. If same time leyline and unlife on board i would remove unlife first. Early game creatures and attarka's command and boros charm as creature damage increase might be the game plan here i think.
Ad nauseam is beatable. First thing you must do is disrupt their mana generator. 4 revelries do much job here. They are good destroying unlife, prism and lotus.
Use mostly instant speed burn spell instead of sorcery speed.