I'm wary of invoke from a development perspective.
Deference actually looked really cool, when I just skipped everything and read the first card, where you tap the creature to pay the cost. I'm not certain about all the variable costs.
Are you planning to make a whole supplemental product?
I think you got the noun for the blue God wrong. Note how the "God of Zeal" is called "the Fervent", but isn't the "God of Fervor".
Invoke will need some playtesting for sure, but I'm optimistic.
The reason I went for alternative costs to deference on the rare creatures is that I didn't want to limit myself to effects that are small enough that tapping the creature is enough. Alternate costs opens me up to a wider range of effects.
And yes, I am currently planning a whole set of precons.
Also, yes I know. I figured "Mindfulness" sounded less evocative of card draw than "Knowledge," even though it still doesn't make people think of flash or counterspells. I'm still working on the names at the moment, so just consider those placeholders.
I posted a thread a little while ago about a possible continuation of the commander product series so that it lines up with the release of standard blocks, allowing it to flesh out certain characters or factions in ways a standard set can't. I introduced a few mechanics as well. This thread is a follow-up to that one, containing all of my current designs for these mechanics.
I'm looking mostly for feedback on the idividual designs, as well as the mechanics themselves overall.
The mechanics are:
Invoke - (effect using X), where X is your commander's power.
Rules: If you have more than one commander, you choose which one's power is counted. If your commander is a planeswalker, its power is 0, unless it is somehow also a creature, in which case whatever effect is doing that will determine its power.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may (pay cost). If you do, (effect).
Aaaaaaaaand the cards:
Oketra's Acolyte3W
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, exile target creature you don't control until ~ leaves the battlefield. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, exile target creature you don't control until ~ leaves the battlefield.
2/2
Paragon of Solidarity3WW
Creature - Bird Warrior (R)
Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, you gain 10 life. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may tap four untapped creatures you control. If you do, your life total becomes your starting life total.
3/4
Oketra's Call3W
Instant (U) Invoke - Create X 1/1 white Warrior creature tokens, where X is your commander's power. Then you gain 1 life for each creature you control.
Even the Odds3WW
Sorcery (R) Invoke - For each player, choose X nonland permanents that player controls, where X is your commander's power. Destroy the rest.
Kefnet's Acolyte1U
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, draw a card.
1/3
Paragon of Mindfulness Knowledge2UU
Creature - Human Wizard (R)
You may cast your commander as though it had flash. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may pay U. If you do, counter target spell.
2/2
Yes, I know this one's name doesn't make sense. It's part of the naming convention for this cycle.
Edit: Fixed name for less confusion.
Kefnet's Insight2U
Instant (U) Invoke - Reveal the top X cards of your library, where X is your commander's power. An opponent separates those cards into two piles. Put one pile into your hand and the other into your graveyard.
Lay Claim2UU
Sorcery (R) Invoke - Gain control of target nonland permanent with converted mana cost X or less, where X is your commander's power.
Bontu's Acolyte2B
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, each player sacrifices a creature. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, each player sacrifices a creature.
2/1
Paragon of Ambition4BB
Creature - Zombie Wizard (R)
You may cast your commander from your graveyard. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may sacrifice a creature. If you do, it enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it, where X is the sacrificed creature's power.
4/6
Bontu's Secrets2B
Sorcery (U) Invoke - Target player draws X cards and loses X life, where X is your commander's power.
Abuse of Power2BB
Sorcery (R) Invoke - Destroy each creature whith power less than your commander's power.
Hazoret's Acolyte2R
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, add RRR to your mana pool. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, add RRR to your mana pool.
2/2
Paragon of Zeal1RR
Creature - Jackal Wizard (R)
Prowess Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may pay 1R. If you do, you may cast up to one instant or sorcery card from your hand or graveyard this turn without paying its mana cost.
3/1
Hazoret's Retribution3R
Sorcery (U) Invoke - Destroy up to X target artifacts, where X is your commander's power.
Borrowed ZealR
Instant (R) Invoke - Target attacking creature you control gets +X/+0 and gains trample until end of turn, where X is your commander's power. Sacrifice that creature at the beginning of the next end step.
Rhonas' Acolyte2G
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy target artifact or enchantment. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, destroy target artifact or enchantment.
1/1
Paragon of Strength2GG
Creature - Naga Warrior (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight another target creature. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may tap ~ and put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield. If you do, ~ fights that creature.
4/4
Rhonas' Reclaimation1G
Sorcery (U) Invoke - Return target card with converted mana cost X or less from your graveyard to your hand, where X is your commander's power.
Serpent Society4GG
Sorcery (R) Invoke - Create X X/X green Snake creature tokens, where X is your commander's power.
Monument to the Gods5
Artifact (R) Invoke - T: Add X mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool, where X is your commander's power.
Temple of Prophecy
Land (R) Invoke - When ~ enters the battlefield, look at the top X cards of your library. Exile one of them face down, then put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. T: Add C to your mana pool. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may sacrifice ~. If you do, play the exiled card without paying any of its costs.
While this is a neat design, contradictory lines of text are problematic. That's why you'll never see something like this.
The problem is that a player might read the second ability and question whether the first ability applies to it, because it's phrased in a way that contradicts the logic of the first ability. "Why would this tell me each player gains life when they would actually lose it? The abilities are printed on the same card! This second ability must be an exception to the first."
It adds a needless second step in resolution by always having a replacement effect for the second ability. My rule of thumb is never to make an effect that will just be replaced by a different effect 100% of the time. Cut out the middle man and say "deals 1 damage to each player."
Alternatively, you could do something similar by limiting the first ability to opponents and making the second ability "target creature gains lifelink until end of turn." That would, of course, necessitate making this card also white or black (or just monoblack, now that I think about it), but it adds more depth and justifies the replacement effect. You could use it on your own guy and gain some life, or you could use it on an opponent's guy and punish them for hitting you.
When I saw Hazoret spoiled, I was pretty disappointed. Amonkhet uses the same formula for the gods, minus the enchantment aspect, and still ends up with something that's even less exciting. I'm not saying the gods should've been enchantments, that's a Theros thing. But the problem is that Hazoret (and now Kefnet), just don't evoke the feeling of being gods. Even the Theros gods had this problem.
It basically all comes down to how splashy and exciting they are. These just aren't. They're designed to be powerful in standard and limited without overpowering the format, and I understand that. I understand that it's not easy to make a card with godlike power in a power-controlled gametype without it breaking things or being so costly that it never sees play.
That's why I am imagining a solution to this disconnect between expectations and delivery. That solution is a set of commander decks, each of which is assigned to one of the five gods. In these decks, the gods can be as big and splashy and exciting as we want and it really wouldn't matter as much as it does in standard.
Furthermore, I also imagine this being a supplemental product to every standard block. For example, say we visit Ravnica next. When that set comes out, Commander: Ravnica would be released, featuring the guild leaders as face cards. Even worlds without legend cycles can have commander products like this by having the decks focus on the planeswalkers instead, as there will always be at least five in a block.
This will allow us to see versions of the main characters from standard sets really fleshed out without badly impacting standard.
So, back to the namesake of the thread, Commander: Amonkhet. This is just a proof of concept and I don't have full decklists yet, just some mechanic ideas. So here goes:
MECHANICS
These will, like any commander set, be unique to these commander decks and be tied to the theme of the world, and to a greater extent, the commanders themselves.
"Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, (effect)"
Ex:
"Disciple of Hazoret2R
Creature - Human Cleric
When ~ enters the battlefield, add RRR to your mana pool. Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, add RRR to your mana pool.
3/2"
This is to represent worship of the main commanders, each of the five gods. I anticipate god cards in these decks having high costs, so this gives players something to do to build up to their imminent arrival, while spicing things up when they finally do come out. It also incentivizes recasting commanders, should they somehow be removed. One last sidenote: This also plays well with effects like Inspired, from Born of the Gods, something I could easily see being implemented in these decks to encourage attacking and activating abilities.
"Invoke - (effect using X), where X is your commander's power."
Ex:
"Hazoret's Zeal1R
Instant Invoke - Target creature you control gets +X/+0 and gains trample until end of turn, where X is your commander's power."
This one is tricky at first, but I think there is definitely enough design space here. It obviously favors commanders with higher power, which works fine with god cards as they will typically be large. This is probably my favorite of these mechanics because of the raw flavor here. You are literally invoking the power of your god to cast powerful spells. There is one rules issue, and that has to do with Partners. For now, lets assume that if you have multiple commanders, you choose which one's power is counted here. Also of note is that this looks at your commander in whatever zone it's in.
For the next mechanic, lets look at a mockup of an actual commander:
"Hazoret, God of Zeal4RRR
Legendary Creature - God
Indestructible, haste
Whenever another creature you control would deal damage to a player, it deals twice that much damage to that player instead. Intervene - XRRR: Target creature gets +X/+0 until end of turn. You may activate this ability while ~ is in your command zone.
5/4"
Basically, you can use "intervene" abilities from the command zone the same way you would from the battlefield. One of the themes of these decks is to illustrate the power and influence of the gods, even when they haven't manifested. In standard, they do this by creating a condition for the gods to be creatures. In commander, we have the command zone to work with, allowing us to make the actual creature more exciting and less complicated. There is a slight power level concern with being able to do things with your commander without casting it, but you can cost activated abilities such that they won't be that problematic. This avoids risky situations like Oloro. Also, as this example illustrates, we can make these activated abilities more relevant after the commander is in play by making it synergize with the commander's other abilities.
Then a ton of people would complain that they are for "EDH only" or fringe reanimator strategies.
Unless they actually build a format in which cards like that are playable. And, in any case, WotC seems fine with alienating large portions of their playerbase at a time with high-profile cards anyway. Why should standard players be the exception? They still get the majority of the rest of the set, why not let cards that want to be big splashy mythics be big splashy mythics for a change?
I was hoping for gods that are actually godlike and exciting this time, but instead we get boring, feel-bad, standard midrange stuff. At this point it's fairly clear that they value making their mythics as competitive and balanced as possible over them actually conveying the feeling of being mythic. I'm not asking them to push them and make them unbalanced, I just wouldn't mind a god with a high mana cost and high stats and a big splashy effect rather than a "playable" mana cost with "aggressive" stats and "kinda maybe a little bit useful" effect, all marred with annoying downside. I mean, I'm starting to get the feeling WotC thinks "godlike" means "aggressively costed with downside" rather than being ACTUALLY godlike. I want stuff like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite or Avacyn, Angel of Hope. Those cards felt divine and almighty. This just feels like a slighty bigger than normal person with no real mechanical identity.
I had a similar idea, but it went the other way around:
Creature - Zombie
(keyword)
Graft - (cost), Exile this card from your graveyard: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. That creature gains (keyword).
Basically, you could graft a flying creature onto a nonflying creature to give it flying, for example. Thia also works with nonkeyword abilities.
Okay, Tarkir had Rakshasa, Kaladesh had Bandars, and now Amonkhet has Serpopards. Is cat-hybrids just a thing now? Like rare iconics and broken mythics?
I'm wondering if the Gods are enemy colored instead of mono, mostly because they're depicted on the enemy colored ones.
For what it's worth too if Isfet is the name of the Black God based on the demon it doesn't seem to line up with the numbers. Isfet could be a place though too.
If you look closer at the art for those cards, you'll see that there are actually two gods standing together and casting those spells (the white and black gods for Vindicate and the black and green gods for Maelstrom Pulse), which leads me to believe that they are monocolored.
All For One2B
Instant (R)
Choose a creature target player controls. That player sacrifices the chosen creature unless he or she sacrifices all other creatures he or she controls. ...or one for all. Your choice.
ExecutionBB
Sorcery (C)
Destroy target creature.
Give PauseUU
Instant (U)
Counter target spell. Target opponent draws a card.
Double or Nothing2U
Instant (C)
Counter target spell unless its controller pays its mana cost.
The reason I went for alternative costs to deference on the rare creatures is that I didn't want to limit myself to effects that are small enough that tapping the creature is enough. Alternate costs opens me up to a wider range of effects.
And yes, I am currently planning a whole set of precons.
Also, yes I know. I figured "Mindfulness" sounded less evocative of card draw than "Knowledge," even though it still doesn't make people think of flash or counterspells. I'm still working on the names at the moment, so just consider those placeholders.
I'm looking mostly for feedback on the idividual designs, as well as the mechanics themselves overall.
The mechanics are:
Invoke - (effect using X), where X is your commander's power.
Rules: If you have more than one commander, you choose which one's power is counted. If your commander is a planeswalker, its power is 0, unless it is somehow also a creature, in which case whatever effect is doing that will determine its power.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may (pay cost). If you do, (effect).
Aaaaaaaaand the cards:
Oketra's Acolyte 3W
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, exile target creature you don't control until ~ leaves the battlefield.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, exile target creature you don't control until ~ leaves the battlefield.
2/2
Paragon of Solidarity 3WW
Creature - Bird Warrior (R)
Flying
When ~ enters the battlefield, you gain 10 life.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may tap four untapped creatures you control. If you do, your life total becomes your starting life total.
3/4
Oketra's Call 3W
Instant (U)
Invoke - Create X 1/1 white Warrior creature tokens, where X is your commander's power. Then you gain 1 life for each creature you control.
Even the Odds 3WW
Sorcery (R)
Invoke - For each player, choose X nonland permanents that player controls, where X is your commander's power. Destroy the rest.
Kefnet's Acolyte 1U
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, draw a card.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, draw a card.
1/3
Paragon of
MindfulnessKnowledge 2UUCreature - Human Wizard (R)
You may cast your commander as though it had flash.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may pay U. If you do, counter target spell.
2/2
Yes, I know this one's name doesn't make sense. It's part of the naming convention for this cycle.
Edit: Fixed name for less confusion.
Kefnet's Insight 2U
Instant (U)
Invoke - Reveal the top X cards of your library, where X is your commander's power. An opponent separates those cards into two piles. Put one pile into your hand and the other into your graveyard.
Lay Claim 2UU
Sorcery (R)
Invoke - Gain control of target nonland permanent with converted mana cost X or less, where X is your commander's power.
Bontu's Acolyte 2B
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, each player sacrifices a creature.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, each player sacrifices a creature.
2/1
Paragon of Ambition 4BB
Creature - Zombie Wizard (R)
You may cast your commander from your graveyard.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may sacrifice a creature. If you do, it enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it, where X is the sacrificed creature's power.
4/6
Bontu's Secrets 2B
Sorcery (U)
Invoke - Target player draws X cards and loses X life, where X is your commander's power.
Abuse of Power 2BB
Sorcery (R)
Invoke - Destroy each creature whith power less than your commander's power.
Hazoret's Acolyte 2R
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, add RRR to your mana pool.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, add RRR to your mana pool.
2/2
Paragon of Zeal 1RR
Creature - Jackal Wizard (R)
Prowess
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may pay 1R. If you do, you may cast up to one instant or sorcery card from your hand or graveyard this turn without paying its mana cost.
3/1
Hazoret's Retribution 3R
Sorcery (U)
Invoke - Destroy up to X target artifacts, where X is your commander's power.
Borrowed Zeal R
Instant (R)
Invoke - Target attacking creature you control gets +X/+0 and gains trample until end of turn, where X is your commander's power. Sacrifice that creature at the beginning of the next end step.
Rhonas' Acolyte 2G
Creature - Human Cleric (U)
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy target artifact or enchantment.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, destroy target artifact or enchantment.
1/1
Paragon of Strength 2GG
Creature - Naga Warrior (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may have it fight another target creature.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may tap ~ and put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield. If you do, ~ fights that creature.
4/4
Rhonas' Reclaimation 1G
Sorcery (U)
Invoke - Return target card with converted mana cost X or less from your graveyard to your hand, where X is your commander's power.
Serpent Society 4GG
Sorcery (R)
Invoke - Create X X/X green Snake creature tokens, where X is your commander's power.
Monument to the Gods 5
Artifact (R)
Invoke - T: Add X mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool, where X is your commander's power.
Temple of Prophecy
Land (R)
Invoke - When ~ enters the battlefield, look at the top X cards of your library. Exile one of them face down, then put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
T: Add C to your mana pool.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, you may sacrifice ~. If you do, play the exiled card without paying any of its costs.
The problem is that a player might read the second ability and question whether the first ability applies to it, because it's phrased in a way that contradicts the logic of the first ability. "Why would this tell me each player gains life when they would actually lose it? The abilities are printed on the same card! This second ability must be an exception to the first."
It adds a needless second step in resolution by always having a replacement effect for the second ability. My rule of thumb is never to make an effect that will just be replaced by a different effect 100% of the time. Cut out the middle man and say "deals 1 damage to each player."
Alternatively, you could do something similar by limiting the first ability to opponents and making the second ability "target creature gains lifelink until end of turn." That would, of course, necessitate making this card also white or black (or just monoblack, now that I think about it), but it adds more depth and justifies the replacement effect. You could use it on your own guy and gain some life, or you could use it on an opponent's guy and punish them for hitting you.
It basically all comes down to how splashy and exciting they are. These just aren't. They're designed to be powerful in standard and limited without overpowering the format, and I understand that. I understand that it's not easy to make a card with godlike power in a power-controlled gametype without it breaking things or being so costly that it never sees play.
That's why I am imagining a solution to this disconnect between expectations and delivery. That solution is a set of commander decks, each of which is assigned to one of the five gods. In these decks, the gods can be as big and splashy and exciting as we want and it really wouldn't matter as much as it does in standard.
Furthermore, I also imagine this being a supplemental product to every standard block. For example, say we visit Ravnica next. When that set comes out, Commander: Ravnica would be released, featuring the guild leaders as face cards. Even worlds without legend cycles can have commander products like this by having the decks focus on the planeswalkers instead, as there will always be at least five in a block.
This will allow us to see versions of the main characters from standard sets really fleshed out without badly impacting standard.
So, back to the namesake of the thread, Commander: Amonkhet. This is just a proof of concept and I don't have full decklists yet, just some mechanic ideas. So here goes:
MECHANICS
These will, like any commander set, be unique to these commander decks and be tied to the theme of the world, and to a greater extent, the commanders themselves.
"Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, (effect)"
Ex:
"Disciple of Hazoret 2R
Creature - Human Cleric
When ~ enters the battlefield, add RRR to your mana pool.
Deference - Whenever you cast your commander, if ~ is untapped, you may tap it. If you do, add RRR to your mana pool.
3/2"
This is to represent worship of the main commanders, each of the five gods. I anticipate god cards in these decks having high costs, so this gives players something to do to build up to their imminent arrival, while spicing things up when they finally do come out. It also incentivizes recasting commanders, should they somehow be removed. One last sidenote: This also plays well with effects like Inspired, from Born of the Gods, something I could easily see being implemented in these decks to encourage attacking and activating abilities.
"Invoke - (effect using X), where X is your commander's power."
Ex:
"Hazoret's Zeal 1R
Instant
Invoke - Target creature you control gets +X/+0 and gains trample until end of turn, where X is your commander's power."
This one is tricky at first, but I think there is definitely enough design space here. It obviously favors commanders with higher power, which works fine with god cards as they will typically be large. This is probably my favorite of these mechanics because of the raw flavor here. You are literally invoking the power of your god to cast powerful spells. There is one rules issue, and that has to do with Partners. For now, lets assume that if you have multiple commanders, you choose which one's power is counted here. Also of note is that this looks at your commander in whatever zone it's in.
For the next mechanic, lets look at a mockup of an actual commander:
"Hazoret, God of Zeal 4RRR
Legendary Creature - God
Indestructible, haste
Whenever another creature you control would deal damage to a player, it deals twice that much damage to that player instead.
Intervene - XRRR: Target creature gets +X/+0 until end of turn. You may activate this ability while ~ is in your command zone.
5/4"
Basically, you can use "intervene" abilities from the command zone the same way you would from the battlefield. One of the themes of these decks is to illustrate the power and influence of the gods, even when they haven't manifested. In standard, they do this by creating a condition for the gods to be creatures. In commander, we have the command zone to work with, allowing us to make the actual creature more exciting and less complicated. There is a slight power level concern with being able to do things with your commander without casting it, but you can cost activated abilities such that they won't be that problematic. This avoids risky situations like Oloro. Also, as this example illustrates, we can make these activated abilities more relevant after the commander is in play by making it synergize with the commander's other abilities.
Anyway, what do you guys think?
Creature - Zombie
(keyword)
Graft - (cost), Exile this card from your graveyard: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. That creature gains (keyword).
Basically, you could graft a flying creature onto a nonflying creature to give it flying, for example. Thia also works with nonkeyword abilities.
Yours is a lot simpler though. It's pretty neat.
Instant (R)
Choose a creature target player controls. That player sacrifices the chosen creature unless he or she sacrifices all other creatures he or she controls.
...or one for all. Your choice.
Execution BB
Sorcery (C)
Destroy target creature.
Give Pause UU
Instant (U)
Counter target spell. Target opponent draws a card.
Double or Nothing 2U
Instant (C)
Counter target spell unless its controller pays its mana cost.
Everything else seems fine i guess.