The reason lands is expensive is because the only cards in it that are expensive and see much play in other decks are bob, tropical island, fetch lands, and wasteland. So its very difficult for people to justify buying tabernacle, maze of iths, mox diamonds, explorations, intuition etc when they don't overlap into any other deck.
So this weekend im pretty sure I entered the annals of history by becoming the only lands player to die to bob. He dealt 12 damage to me over the course of 6 turns. Flipping (in a row mind you) crucible, bob, totem, loam, bayou, intuition. That last 3 killed me as I had taken a couple of early game hits from batterskull because d&t has ports for mazes. I wanted to cry.
Deathrite is really good, but no where near as punishing as Scavenging Ooze is. I mainboard Cursed Totem now because of both of them. Deathrite can still be dealt with, you just have to sandbag your tranquil thickets and be smart about your plays.
On the note of portal, a lot of the time making black mana is a little more pertinent, especially in lists playing Raven's Crime. Like other posters have said, moon isn't really getting played a lot outside out sneak&show in their board, and usually only as a 1 of, so the portal really isn't all that necessary and just takes up another utility slot.
@Koshi it really depends on how you want to play the deck. There are about 4 or so flex slots that are Enlightened Tutors, Raven's Crimes, Cursed Totem, Oblivion Stone, Riftstone Portal, Mishra's Factory, etc. Most everyone's 35-36 lands are fairly stock, I only play a single manland, and the artifact sweet is pretty much the same except in the case of the above mentioned cards. And every list plays 4 Exploration, 2 Mana Bond, 4 Mox Diamond, 3 Intuition, 4 Life From the Loam. So I suggest taking a look at the shell, buying it, and all the various flex slot cards (many aren't very expensive at all) and trying a little of everything out.
That's what I do, and devote a binder to potential sideboard/mainboard cards for both Lands and my Enchantress decks, just in case I decide I want to change it up.
In theory it's because you have so many tutors that the extra bullet gives you enough versatility to mitigate the fact that your deck will be less consistent at drawing its core pieces, but I think it's just lazy deckbuilding and that there's always an easy cut, usually worm harvest.
You took the words out of my mouth. I'm tired of people trying to argue that it is okay.
OK, but I will not play white, so Thaila is out of question.
Is there a particular reason? As Sparki said, she is essentially everything we have ever wanted for playing against combo, all rolled up in one amazingly efficient package.
I've seen people play a singleton scrubland (or godless shrine in your case) to help cast postboard Bobs and Thalia. I wasn't a fan, so instead you could just play a Temple garden.
White also gives you access to Enlightened Tutor, which is also very good because threat density is extremely important.
I agree about Ghost Quarter and Ensnaring Bridge. I'll also take an Oblivion Stone in the mainboard, since twndomn convinced me, that this card is really good.
I think 3 raven's crime is too many, I'd cut 1 for an ensnaring bridge. You also have a TON of sb enchantment/artifact hate. Your main enchantment to worry about would be Blood Moon and Rest in Peace. For moon you already have a mainboard riftsone portal, and the decks that play rest will just counter it . If you expect a ton of grave hate just switch over to the bob plan for card advantage. I feel that 2 k. Grips will suffice for enchantment hate as there are few artifacts that really give you a problem. And cursed totem should be somewhere in your 75 (I mainboard it to beat those pesky shamans and scavenging oozes).
Thalia is so good that its not even funny, so I'd definitely play 3. Trinisphere is another fantastic board choice, and I feel your chalice count should be at 4.
im trying to make a lands deck without pendril vail because its so dang expensive. doesnt glacial chasm pretty much shut down any creature deck anyways? cant you just sac it during ur upkeep every turn never pay the life and then loam it back again over and over. I dont see how anyone could do any damage to you without using an instant of some kind or of course destroying the land. Let me know if there is something i am forgetting thanks
Exactly what Sparki said. Things get difficult when you start wastelanding your opponent into oblivion, ghost quarter them until it becomes strip mine or even a smokestack at 1. By taxing your opponent through Tabernacle and ports they can't continue putting creatures on the board bottlenecking them, which is where maze really shines. Or if they are letting their creatures die, they aren't putting any pressure on you either, so it becomes a win-win for you. It all forces them into the late game where you are king.
I consider Tabernacle to be very similar to Moat in Enchantress (despite what others say, I have never stopped being in love with the card), where to play a competitive version of this deck, you do need the card. There are many matchups that you will board it out, but in the ones where it works it is downright backbreaking. My friends constantly give me crap about owning a $300 sideboard card (the first tourney I had a moat, the lingering souls esperblade was all over, so it got boarded out a bit), and this will be similar deal, but it is pretty much required.
Take the word of a guy who played mono-white stax forever, taxing is amazing. And more often than not, your opponent won't realize just how bad of a situation they are in until its too late. Even if they do realize, there isn't a lot they can do about it.
Especially if you play against someone consistently, the same deck over and over again. Like imagine you play a RUG player every day several times a day for a few months, you'll get really good at the RUG matchup but your opponent will also get really good at the SI matchup.. its good to have that dynamic as well. If the opponent doesn't have to guess as much because they know how to pick you apart then you learn how to pick better hands, play around your opponent's counter plays, and ultimately learn how to play against the worst kind of opponent you could encounter; a really smart blue player or a blue player familiar with SI.
I'm glad someone brought this up. I feel too often that people tend to give up on certain matchups because they are perceived as unwinnable. That isn''t true in many cases. For instance, back when I played mono-white stax and my friend played lands, we must have played thousands of games (exaggeration, but still, a LOT), and at first we thought stax had the upper-hand. He switched up tactics, and instead found that lands really had the way better matchup. Now fast forward this to my first scg open. Round 3 my opponent is playing lands. I realize that he probably hasn't ever really tested this matchup, and in fact after game 1 admitted he didn't know what I was playing (I can't for the life of me understand why players openly admit this during a match). He was competent at playing lands, but didn't understand the match's intricate choke points, when to go all in, hold back for fear of armageddon, force an armageddon, etc. And because of this I was able to take the match.
Long story short, I cannot stress enough the importance of practicing with a fringe deck. Your opponent won't know what you are playing, which is in and of itself an advantage. So why not milk that advantage for all its worth?
I still lament that I got rid of PSI, which I did in haste after playing a tournament and fizzling twice. Each time having drawn 16 cards, with 10 mana floating and about a billion storm count. I had goldfished the deck with common/uncommon cards from elspeth vs. tezzeret proxied on every chance I had. I got pretty good at playing the deck, but never mastered the grindy u matchup.
btw Vacrix, did you play at scg San Jose a few years back with a solidarity deck that ran cryptic commands? Your signature makes me wonder. Probably not, but figured I'd ask.
I would make the case that if it gets countered by daze you are up 4 mana to none
I dont understand your meaning here. With scenario 1 you still play a turn 2 growth, and id rather that get countered than an engine piece.
@crimhead, I dont mainboard a wheel, so for my 3 sb gravehate slots will become RIPs. I didn't care much for the mainboarded wheel when I was trying it out awhile back.
Playing presence before argothian doesnt make much sense for a few of reasons. 1) it can get countered by daze, 2) you dont draw a card for casting the argothian after presence, and 3) argothian only dies to sweepers (not mainboarded, or at least wont come down for a few turns) and counterspells, where as presence gets hit by pridemage and counterspells, so arguably argothian is harder to deal with. Daze is more widely played than snare is, and run as a 4 of vs 3 of. So the odds of them having daze over snare is higher if they run both.
It all depends on what you are facing of course to decide what to play. Against quadlazer dredge you have to play an elephant grass ASAP or you just outright die. But against other aggro decks you can usually take a hit or two before hitting the panic button on grass.
My play doesn't change between matchups. I have found that the amount cards you will soon be drawing will more than compensate for the 1 for 1s you are getting early on. The key is speed, which means establishing an early engine AND ramping. You are foregoing that in both scenarios 2 and 3. Option 1 also gives you 2 mana leftover, and you will most likely give you enough to cast at least 1 enchantment. And tbh 4 cards by turn 4 is more than enough.
Not to mention that option 1 is the only one that allows you to play around daze on your engine pieces which is huge. Ramping is especially critical against tempo thresh, because at that point you cast something and essentially ask them if they have FoW. Their taxing counterspells quickly become irrelevant, which is why that matchup is very positive for us.
All in all, you cant afford not to ramp in any matchup, its simply too important. And on the draw it is even more important to get ahead.
Postboard Thalia coupled with mana denial and chalice of the void is actually pretty good against them. I've noticed a lot of lists don't really play bounce in their sideboards anymore, many just going for dread of night to beat Thalia. But who brings in dread of night in against lands?
I wouldn't bank on them not bringing it in. A storm player must be efficient at metagaming and understanding the ins & outs of matchups. Storm is a relatively difficult deck to play well, and as such scares newer players to the game/format.
Then again I refuse to bank on my opponents being unfamiliar with matchups. If they are, its absolutely amazing (god knows I've used that to my advantage whilst playing enchantress at bigger tourneys) and by all means milk it for what its worth. But I always play game 1 as if they know exactly what to do, and continue to do so until they provide sufficient evidence to the contrary.
Crop Rotation is mostly for Glacial Chasm, mostly vs Storm (which runs no counters). I suppose I could board it instead - it's probably better there.
While of course I'll be running four Loams, I guess Mulch is just something I like. Perhaps is viable in the side board to bring in against grave hate (like Bob)?
I figure I'll start with three Gambles and upgrade later to Intuitions. That should save about $100 in the short term and have me playing Lands a little sooner.
Thanks again, and thanks for being friendly and respectful!
Just an fyi, chasm doesn't stop tendrils because it is life lost. And I'm pretty sure omnitell plays a tendrils in the board alongside grapeshot anyway. Not to mention that most every storm decks play tendrils as their main wincon.
Also why do you feel the need to play mulches? I understand older lands before loam, but loam is just infinitely better. And tolaria west is an uncounterable crop rotation, as I dont see a whole lot of opportunity to gain a lot by flashing a land into play to warrant the vulnerability of being countered. Not to mention you can get tolaria's back to use again, or ones that you have dredged. Sure its cool to get a guaranteed tabernacle turn 1 vs a large portion of the meta, but still.
Both reanimator and dredge run discard and reanimator has counter if they make you pitch/counter the cards you need elephant grass should hold them off from winning long enough to replenish
And with wheel (the second best gravehate for dredge vs rest), if you dont get it turn 2 against them, you are probably dead. Quadlazer really changed the game for us, as they consistently combo turn 3 and twist your hand. I havent even hit enough mana to replenish against them before dying. Especially if they win game 1, and you take it to 3. They just cabal grass out of the hand. Being on the draw versus them is horrid. You have to board in leylines so you dont just outright get stomped by their cabals.
I can count the number of times Ive ever made it past turn 4 against reanimator, and its not that many. Not to mention those are games that Im barely holding on and am probably not going to draw my 2 of replenish. Especially when many lists play tidespout, so grass means little to nothing anyway.
So this weekend im pretty sure I entered the annals of history by becoming the only lands player to die to bob. He dealt 12 damage to me over the course of 6 turns. Flipping (in a row mind you) crucible, bob, totem, loam, bayou, intuition. That last 3 killed me as I had taken a couple of early game hits from batterskull because d&t has ports for mazes. I wanted to cry.
On the note of portal, a lot of the time making black mana is a little more pertinent, especially in lists playing Raven's Crime. Like other posters have said, moon isn't really getting played a lot outside out sneak&show in their board, and usually only as a 1 of, so the portal really isn't all that necessary and just takes up another utility slot.
@Koshi it really depends on how you want to play the deck. There are about 4 or so flex slots that are Enlightened Tutors, Raven's Crimes, Cursed Totem, Oblivion Stone, Riftstone Portal, Mishra's Factory, etc. Most everyone's 35-36 lands are fairly stock, I only play a single manland, and the artifact sweet is pretty much the same except in the case of the above mentioned cards. And every list plays 4 Exploration, 2 Mana Bond, 4 Mox Diamond, 3 Intuition, 4 Life From the Loam. So I suggest taking a look at the shell, buying it, and all the various flex slot cards (many aren't very expensive at all) and trying a little of everything out.
That's what I do, and devote a binder to potential sideboard/mainboard cards for both Lands and my Enchantress decks, just in case I decide I want to change it up.
You took the words out of my mouth. I'm tired of people trying to argue that it is okay.
Is there a particular reason? As Sparki said, she is essentially everything we have ever wanted for playing against combo, all rolled up in one amazingly efficient package.
I've seen people play a singleton scrubland (or godless shrine in your case) to help cast postboard Bobs and Thalia. I wasn't a fan, so instead you could just play a Temple garden.
White also gives you access to Enlightened Tutor, which is also very good because threat density is extremely important.
I think 3 raven's crime is too many, I'd cut 1 for an ensnaring bridge. You also have a TON of sb enchantment/artifact hate. Your main enchantment to worry about would be Blood Moon and Rest in Peace. For moon you already have a mainboard riftsone portal, and the decks that play rest will just counter it . If you expect a ton of grave hate just switch over to the bob plan for card advantage. I feel that 2 k. Grips will suffice for enchantment hate as there are few artifacts that really give you a problem. And cursed totem should be somewhere in your 75 (I mainboard it to beat those pesky shamans and scavenging oozes).
Thalia is so good that its not even funny, so I'd definitely play 3. Trinisphere is another fantastic board choice, and I feel your chalice count should be at 4.
Just my 2 cents though.
Exactly what Sparki said. Things get difficult when you start wastelanding your opponent into oblivion, ghost quarter them until it becomes strip mine or even a smokestack at 1. By taxing your opponent through Tabernacle and ports they can't continue putting creatures on the board bottlenecking them, which is where maze really shines. Or if they are letting their creatures die, they aren't putting any pressure on you either, so it becomes a win-win for you. It all forces them into the late game where you are king.
I consider Tabernacle to be very similar to Moat in Enchantress (despite what others say, I have never stopped being in love with the card), where to play a competitive version of this deck, you do need the card. There are many matchups that you will board it out, but in the ones where it works it is downright backbreaking. My friends constantly give me crap about owning a $300 sideboard card (the first tourney I had a moat, the lingering souls esperblade was all over, so it got boarded out a bit), and this will be similar deal, but it is pretty much required.
Take the word of a guy who played mono-white stax forever, taxing is amazing. And more often than not, your opponent won't realize just how bad of a situation they are in until its too late. Even if they do realize, there isn't a lot they can do about it.
I'm glad someone brought this up. I feel too often that people tend to give up on certain matchups because they are perceived as unwinnable. That isn''t true in many cases. For instance, back when I played mono-white stax and my friend played lands, we must have played thousands of games (exaggeration, but still, a LOT), and at first we thought stax had the upper-hand. He switched up tactics, and instead found that lands really had the way better matchup. Now fast forward this to my first scg open. Round 3 my opponent is playing lands. I realize that he probably hasn't ever really tested this matchup, and in fact after game 1 admitted he didn't know what I was playing (I can't for the life of me understand why players openly admit this during a match). He was competent at playing lands, but didn't understand the match's intricate choke points, when to go all in, hold back for fear of armageddon, force an armageddon, etc. And because of this I was able to take the match.
Long story short, I cannot stress enough the importance of practicing with a fringe deck. Your opponent won't know what you are playing, which is in and of itself an advantage. So why not milk that advantage for all its worth?
I still lament that I got rid of PSI, which I did in haste after playing a tournament and fizzling twice. Each time having drawn 16 cards, with 10 mana floating and about a billion storm count. I had goldfished the deck with common/uncommon cards from elspeth vs. tezzeret proxied on every chance I had. I got pretty good at playing the deck, but never mastered the grindy u matchup.
btw Vacrix, did you play at scg San Jose a few years back with a solidarity deck that ran cryptic commands? Your signature makes me wonder. Probably not, but figured I'd ask.
I dont understand your meaning here. With scenario 1 you still play a turn 2 growth, and id rather that get countered than an engine piece.
@crimhead, I dont mainboard a wheel, so for my 3 sb gravehate slots will become RIPs. I didn't care much for the mainboarded wheel when I was trying it out awhile back.
It all depends on what you are facing of course to decide what to play. Against quadlazer dredge you have to play an elephant grass ASAP or you just outright die. But against other aggro decks you can usually take a hit or two before hitting the panic button on grass.
Not to mention that option 1 is the only one that allows you to play around daze on your engine pieces which is huge. Ramping is especially critical against tempo thresh, because at that point you cast something and essentially ask them if they have FoW. Their taxing counterspells quickly become irrelevant, which is why that matchup is very positive for us.
All in all, you cant afford not to ramp in any matchup, its simply too important. And on the draw it is even more important to get ahead.
I wouldn't bank on them not bringing it in. A storm player must be efficient at metagaming and understanding the ins & outs of matchups. Storm is a relatively difficult deck to play well, and as such scares newer players to the game/format.
Then again I refuse to bank on my opponents being unfamiliar with matchups. If they are, its absolutely amazing (god knows I've used that to my advantage whilst playing enchantress at bigger tourneys) and by all means milk it for what its worth. But I always play game 1 as if they know exactly what to do, and continue to do so until they provide sufficient evidence to the contrary.
Just an fyi, chasm doesn't stop tendrils because it is life lost. And I'm pretty sure omnitell plays a tendrils in the board alongside grapeshot anyway. Not to mention that most every storm decks play tendrils as their main wincon.
^this.
Also why do you feel the need to play mulches? I understand older lands before loam, but loam is just infinitely better. And tolaria west is an uncounterable crop rotation, as I dont see a whole lot of opportunity to gain a lot by flashing a land into play to warrant the vulnerability of being countered. Not to mention you can get tolaria's back to use again, or ones that you have dredged. Sure its cool to get a guaranteed tabernacle turn 1 vs a large portion of the meta, but still.
Just my 2 cents though.
And with wheel (the second best gravehate for dredge vs rest), if you dont get it turn 2 against them, you are probably dead. Quadlazer really changed the game for us, as they consistently combo turn 3 and twist your hand. I havent even hit enough mana to replenish against them before dying. Especially if they win game 1, and you take it to 3. They just cabal grass out of the hand. Being on the draw versus them is horrid. You have to board in leylines so you dont just outright get stomped by their cabals.
I can count the number of times Ive ever made it past turn 4 against reanimator, and its not that many. Not to mention those are games that Im barely holding on and am probably not going to draw my 2 of replenish. Especially when many lists play tidespout, so grass means little to nothing anyway.