This card was "found" days or even weeks ago. Was sent through the priority overnight air mail (insured I would assume) to PSA graded and then presumably sent back. Even if the turnaroud time on grading was negotiated by phone to a day, it would take a few days in the mail both directions. Some seller got the product early, opened up some packs and found it and started the process. Meanwhile people have been buying and opening in hopes of finding it when it had already been "found". (Not me haven't touched the sealed product at all)
If we get the real story eventually there is going to be some salt. I have a feeling we will get a whitewashed version of what actually happened. Lets see what happens.
Um, I do not think the $2,000,000 one ring was shipped through the mail to be graded. Let's be real, if I opened in that in a pack, I'd call out of work for a few days and fly it there myself. And obviously PSA is going to be so excited to see it that they would never make me wait in a queue to have it looked at. If I opened the one ring you can bet it would be graded at most 48 hours later.
But I'm also confused about how fast this happened. For it to be found, you'd expect about half of the possible boosters it could have been in would be opened. I thought the print run was supposed to be massive, so either (1) they seem to have underprinted the set, meaning they radically underestimated the demand, or (2) by chance it was found much earlier than should be statistically likely.
The first shipping date is April 29, during which time the site will temporarily say "out of stock" despite not ever being "out of stock" until December 23. And yes, you can order them en masse in a bundle later on.
What's the source on this? The official Secret Lair website is really confusing and dodgy about this drop being "not Time Boxed to Demand," meaning they can run out of them, but then it says they'll continue to print more in 2022, which sounds like they won't run out... but I can't find anywhere that says there will be a big bundle at the end, and I can't find anything that says they will somehow be out of stock specifically on April 29. Is there more info on this somewhere?
fwiw, I think this is a better way to do the basic land Secret Lairs than selling one of each basic together, since now you can at least focus on getting a critical mass of one type for a deck. I still think they're a huge rip off and would never buy one, but if I loved this art (imagine the Seb McKinnon Swamp or something), there's some chance I'd grab like three of them to bling out a commander deck or something. Step in the right direction? Meh.
I get why they wanted to designate half the cards or so to be Commander legal by default. Aside from just selling more packs of cards, it lets players enjoy them in lots of new ways, so that seems like a solid choice. My only question is, why the stamps? Wouldn't it be more straight-forward to just have some cards have silver borders and some have black borders? I mean, remember Steamflogger Boss? That was a black bordered card that you could open in an Un-set... so what's the difference here?
My only guess is that they are going to "stamp-shift" a bunch of old Un-cards. Maro said that the Collectors' Boosters are full of things that Un-set collectors would want. What could make him say that? A shot at getting new printings of old Un-cards. And if they're reprinting old un-cards, they'll give them stamps, so why not give some of them acorns and some ovals? Just speculating, but so far, the data fit this theory.
Anyway, looks like four big sets a year is the new normal. Because what is product fatigue?
There's always been 4 big sets? Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall?
There were always four sets, but for much of the game's history, that was two big sets, and two small sets. Now it looks like we get four big sets, plus the "supplemental" ones, which are just as big.
The fact that anyone thinks Golos is banworthy really makes me feel like we're playing completely different games.
I agree 100%, and I'm a casual player, not a cEDH player (ok I own one optimized cEDH deck that I built to play at Magic Fests before covid, and 40+ casual builds of all power levels). I just think that whether you're talking about casual or competitive, the idea that Golos was ever a problem is ludicrous.
(but I respect people who feel otherwise, thus my desire for a larger and more diverse RC.)
Coupled with a Worldfire unban, which is definitely against the 'spirit of the format' as the RC lays it out (regardless of the fact that the card is bad), I'm curious as to whether this announcement is setting the stage for something greater. The ban/unban both coming out of left field with no valid explanation for either, and the way both seem almost specifically designed to piss off the playerbase makes me think maybe this is the first salvo in the RC sabotaging its own reputation so that WotC can finally swoop in and fix the format without enraging the more petulant and vocal members of their consumer base.
Now everything else in your post made sense, but this point doesn't. WotC does massively unpopular things all the time in order to make money. If they thought that taking control of Commander would help them make money, they wouldn't start by somehow infiltrating, bribing, or coercing the RC into banning the most popular commander in the format. They'd just take it over and be done with it. At least, that's what seems most likely to me.
I mean really? Golos ban is crazy? upside-down world?
RC has stated its reasons. They are all valid. Maybe you think that the only criteria for a ban should be pure power level. Maybe you are salty because now you can't play your Golos deck anymore. But saying the ban is crazy, insular or has no reasons is just being intellectually dishonest. Golos is THE TOP goodstuff commander and it's not even close. EVERY DECK can be turned into a 5c golos deck and still be playable. Everyone can see that. not everyone want the future of commander meta be 5c golos decks.
1. Yes, lots and lots of people think the Golos ban is crazy. The fact that you don't is exactly my point. There is a ton of disagreement here, including, as I said, from lots of people who are smarter and more dedicated to this format than I am. Go watch the Command Zone video on the topic and come back if you haven't. I'm not being rude, I think your opinion is valid, but objectively this ban is very divisive and there's a ton of disagreement. So please don't call me "intellectually dishonest," because I'm not. My point was actually NOT to debate this specific ban too much, but to point out that it's so divided that it illustrates a problem with the process.
2. To address Golos specifically, there's nothing wrong with having a top good stuff Commander. I think it's boring and not very creative, but it's also a great gateway commander for new players with budget mana bases, and some people believe there's room in the format for a few "easy mode" decks. I've played since Revised and have all of the format staples including reserved list stuff. If a new player wants to hang with my more powerful decks, they'll need something like Golos to make an even match.
3. Everyone keeps saying stuff like, "Golos would be a better Commander for any deck," but LOTS of people choose and build less competitive commanders all the time, so I don't really get this point. No one was doing that. In my experience, playing with my group and in stores, and at Magic Fests before covid, people were still running a huge diversity of commanders and building creative decks around them. So the fact that some decks could be powered up with Golos only seems relevant in hypothetical world to me.
My opinion is that it's time to massively expand the RC. Give seats to Josh, Jimmy, DJ, the Prof, etc. and let a larger group of folks weigh in and make the call together. Maybe even include a few folks from Wizards, like Gavin Verhey.
Ignoring the fact that plenty of people already think the Wizards' banlists are a mess, even with their data, this comment has already happened. They *did* expand things and have somewhere around 11 other people on their Commander Advisory Group. With Josh from the Command Zone already being one of them. And they expanded it once after creating it initially. And that group helped achieve the Flash ban and likely weighed in on these two changes as well.
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That's not correct. They added the "Commander Advisory Group" where they get advice from others, but only four people make the final call. Speaking of Josh, he's been against every recent ban they did, and even after all of his conversations with them, he thinks the Golos ban "makes no sense," in his words. So they seem to pick and choose what advice they listen to. It's one thing to say "we're listening" and another thing to give people a vote of their own.
And yes, WotC banlists can be messy too, which is why I did not say that WotC should manage this. I just think having more people from more perspectives would make for a better and more credible process.
Thanks in advance for being respectful and polite
TL;DR: Whatever you personally feel about this specific ban, I believe we need a larger governing body for the format that includes a broader range of thinkers.
Here's a question: if someone said that the Standard ban list, or the Modern one, or the Legacy one, was no longer going to be controlled by Wizards of the Coast (who have access to huge resources in terms of player feedback, data, etc.), but would instead be controlled by just four people who are all friends (and a few "advisors" who don't seem to have much sway), would anyone be surprised that the ban list was a mess? Would you be surprised that it reflected the strange whims of certain group rather than a measured and consistent approach? Would we be surprised that they get super defensive and take valid criticism personally? Nope. That would be completely inevitable.
Hear me out. The problem here isn't really the Golos ban per se. My personal opinion on that ban isn't relevant. The problem is that the RC is way too insular and way too small to be steering this ship on their own. The truth is, whatever you personally think about Golos, a huge portion of the community feels that this ban is completely crazy, like it's from upside-down world. And that group includes a ton of thoughtful folks who spend their whole careers thinking about Magic -- folks like Josh and Jimmy from the Command Zone, the Prof, Mitch from Commanders Quarters, DJ from Jumbo Commander, etc. etc. When that many people, including high level thinkers, believe a high-stakes ban like this is absolutely wrong for the game, you have to start questioning the process by which we got here, even if you personally agree with the outcome.
My opinion is that it's time to massively expand the RC. Give seats to Josh, Jimmy, DJ, the Prof, etc. and let a larger group of folks weigh in and make the call together. Maybe even include a few folks from Wizards, like Gavin Verhey. Side bonus, give some seats to folks who aren't white guys. My point is that, individual bans aside, we as a community deserve a better process. And speaking for myself, if I felt that a large group of smart, critical people, all came together and voted by 2/3 majority (or something, it's an example), it would be a little easier for me to understand and accept why my (expensive) deck is no longer allowed.
It's about the process, even more than the outcome.
Except, they waited over two years since Golos was printed to ban it, so unless WotC had a big reprint planned, or a Secret Lair or something, they were done making their money. M20 is no longer in print. Golos sold his packs. So while I'd love to agree, I don't think WotC is taking a hit here in the slightest. In fact, if anything, this just increases demand for Codie and Esika, where are still very much in print and are two of the best Golos replacements you can find.
I'm no fan of Hullbreacher, but I truly hate this ban. I feel like we've lost the idea of the social contract. If Armageddon and Stasis can be legal but kept at bay by the social contract and goodwill of friendship, why can't Hullbreacher plus wheel effects?
I have a casual five color treasures deck and my boyfriend has a casual all-pirates deck, and now we can't play with the cards we spent $20 on because some dumb kids can't regulate themselves, and so some loud mouths on the Internet complained too much, and the Commander Rules Committee needs to feel important, so they listened.
Sigh. I hate bans.
Use the social contract to convince other players to let you still play hullbreacher
Can I use the social contract to make my Hullbreacher still worth $20? I hate this line of thought, because it treats degenerate play as inevitable, when it's not.
I'm no fan of Hullbreacher, but I truly hate this ban. I feel like we've lost the idea of the social contract. If Armageddon and Stasis can be legal but kept at bay by the social contract and goodwill of friendship, why can't Hullbreacher plus wheel effects?
I have a casual five color treasures deck and my boyfriend has a casual all-pirates deck, and now we can't play with the cards we spent $20 on because some dumb kids can't regulate themselves, and so some loud mouths on the Internet complained too much, and the Commander Rules Committee needs to feel important, so they listened.
I would fully undestand all this upset behavior over UB if would actually substract something to the game. Like, for example, less or no more standard or core sets, stopping to develop a lore of the magic story, a real contamination between magic multiverse and other IP worlds.
But no. It will concern the game only in the terms of supplementals set, they will not even affect standard, and their lore is totally separate and still non-existent within in-game real lore. As a Vorthosian myself I'm perfectly cool with it.
This is simply an element that is not substractive, but addictive to the game, and therefore, making in more richer and makes happy anybody that loves their favorite IP portrait officially as magic cards.
I don't agree with this, at least for TWD and any UB product that doesn't have a Magic IP version. Take Rick, Steadfast Leader for example. I have a tribal humans EDH deck lead by Morophon, the Boundless and I love playing with it. When Rick was printed, I was heartbroken. I hate UB cards because for me they're absolutely incongruous with Magic flavor and it drives me crazy. And yet, Rick is the best Humans lord ever printed. So I have to choose between two horrible outcomes: miss out on the best Lord to support one of my favorite decks, or run a card that drives me crazy and makes me sad. So I don't think it's fair to say that it's only additive.
I do think that this solution of printing Magic versions is an ok one, assuming the supply is sufficient to meet demand.
I personally hated TWD Secret Lair, but I also wanted to run Rick because I have a tribal humans Morophon deck, and he's the best human lord they've printed. For a while it made me really salty, and I felt trapped between two bad outcomes. They always say, "in commander you don't need every card," but it still feels bad when they made a card that mechanically fits your deck but goes against the look and feel of the game that you love. But then I just bought a magic themed proxy which was both less expensive and better looking. Now I run the card mechanically but it doesn't take me out of the world of Magic. Problem solved.
I'm not happy about this direction for the game, but I also think everyone should play with what they want, however they want. TWD? sure. Proxies? sure. The only thing that will determine if I play with you is if you're fun to play with. I'm not going to judge anyone. I also think we should keep an open mind. I'm a huge LotR fan. I wish they were NOT making a crossover, but they are, so at least I should stay positive for now. Maybe it'll be awesome!
LotR is getting an entire set, so there's no way it's like Godzilla. You will now regularly be playing Commander games against Gandalf and Bilbo. Bummer.
It makes me a little sad that people can't just self-regulate to create a fun and balanced casual gaming environment, and that the proposed solution is to ban dozens and dozens of cards, preventing others from playing with their treasured game pieces, rather than just have a conversation about it. I own all of the cards you list as ban-worthy. Literally. And my playgroup is very healthy and casual, includes new players without deep collections, and has pretty balanced win rates overall. The key is building decks that are fun and interactive.
For example, my bf runs a few extra turn spells in his Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper list and they don't feel oppressive. They feel fun and cool because the deck itself isn't built to abuse them so much as use them like Azorious extra combat steps. I run Gaea's Cradle in my Virtus, the Veiled / Gorm, the Great list, along with Lure and Thicket Basilisk as a throwback to early Magic. In that deck, Cradle is very powerful, but the thing my deck is trying to do with all that mana is totally fair. Sure, it will get blown up by the next Acidic Slime, but it's not part of a strategy designed to make my friends suffer.
Um, I do not think the $2,000,000 one ring was shipped through the mail to be graded. Let's be real, if I opened in that in a pack, I'd call out of work for a few days and fly it there myself. And obviously PSA is going to be so excited to see it that they would never make me wait in a queue to have it looked at. If I opened the one ring you can bet it would be graded at most 48 hours later.
But I'm also confused about how fast this happened. For it to be found, you'd expect about half of the possible boosters it could have been in would be opened. I thought the print run was supposed to be massive, so either (1) they seem to have underprinted the set, meaning they radically underestimated the demand, or (2) by chance it was found much earlier than should be statistically likely.
What's the source on this? The official Secret Lair website is really confusing and dodgy about this drop being "not Time Boxed to Demand," meaning they can run out of them, but then it says they'll continue to print more in 2022, which sounds like they won't run out... but I can't find anywhere that says there will be a big bundle at the end, and I can't find anything that says they will somehow be out of stock specifically on April 29. Is there more info on this somewhere?
fwiw, I think this is a better way to do the basic land Secret Lairs than selling one of each basic together, since now you can at least focus on getting a critical mass of one type for a deck. I still think they're a huge rip off and would never buy one, but if I loved this art (imagine the Seb McKinnon Swamp or something), there's some chance I'd grab like three of them to bling out a commander deck or something. Step in the right direction? Meh.
My only guess is that they are going to "stamp-shift" a bunch of old Un-cards. Maro said that the Collectors' Boosters are full of things that Un-set collectors would want. What could make him say that? A shot at getting new printings of old Un-cards. And if they're reprinting old un-cards, they'll give them stamps, so why not give some of them acorns and some ovals? Just speculating, but so far, the data fit this theory.
...but white is the exile color, and black is the graveyard color? I think this makes sense as printed, I just don't think it's a great card.
There were always four sets, but for much of the game's history, that was two big sets, and two small sets. Now it looks like we get four big sets, plus the "supplemental" ones, which are just as big.
I agree 100%, and I'm a casual player, not a cEDH player (ok I own one optimized cEDH deck that I built to play at Magic Fests before covid, and 40+ casual builds of all power levels). I just think that whether you're talking about casual or competitive, the idea that Golos was ever a problem is ludicrous.
(but I respect people who feel otherwise, thus my desire for a larger and more diverse RC.)
Now everything else in your post made sense, but this point doesn't. WotC does massively unpopular things all the time in order to make money. If they thought that taking control of Commander would help them make money, they wouldn't start by somehow infiltrating, bribing, or coercing the RC into banning the most popular commander in the format. They'd just take it over and be done with it. At least, that's what seems most likely to me.
1. Yes, lots and lots of people think the Golos ban is crazy. The fact that you don't is exactly my point. There is a ton of disagreement here, including, as I said, from lots of people who are smarter and more dedicated to this format than I am. Go watch the Command Zone video on the topic and come back if you haven't. I'm not being rude, I think your opinion is valid, but objectively this ban is very divisive and there's a ton of disagreement. So please don't call me "intellectually dishonest," because I'm not. My point was actually NOT to debate this specific ban too much, but to point out that it's so divided that it illustrates a problem with the process.
2. To address Golos specifically, there's nothing wrong with having a top good stuff Commander. I think it's boring and not very creative, but it's also a great gateway commander for new players with budget mana bases, and some people believe there's room in the format for a few "easy mode" decks. I've played since Revised and have all of the format staples including reserved list stuff. If a new player wants to hang with my more powerful decks, they'll need something like Golos to make an even match.
3. Everyone keeps saying stuff like, "Golos would be a better Commander for any deck," but LOTS of people choose and build less competitive commanders all the time, so I don't really get this point. No one was doing that. In my experience, playing with my group and in stores, and at Magic Fests before covid, people were still running a huge diversity of commanders and building creative decks around them. So the fact that some decks could be powered up with Golos only seems relevant in hypothetical world to me.
[/quote]
That's not correct. They added the "Commander Advisory Group" where they get advice from others, but only four people make the final call. Speaking of Josh, he's been against every recent ban they did, and even after all of his conversations with them, he thinks the Golos ban "makes no sense," in his words. So they seem to pick and choose what advice they listen to. It's one thing to say "we're listening" and another thing to give people a vote of their own.
And yes, WotC banlists can be messy too, which is why I did not say that WotC should manage this. I just think having more people from more perspectives would make for a better and more credible process.
Thanks in advance for being respectful and polite
TL;DR: Whatever you personally feel about this specific ban, I believe we need a larger governing body for the format that includes a broader range of thinkers.
Hear me out. The problem here isn't really the Golos ban per se. My personal opinion on that ban isn't relevant. The problem is that the RC is way too insular and way too small to be steering this ship on their own. The truth is, whatever you personally think about Golos, a huge portion of the community feels that this ban is completely crazy, like it's from upside-down world. And that group includes a ton of thoughtful folks who spend their whole careers thinking about Magic -- folks like Josh and Jimmy from the Command Zone, the Prof, Mitch from Commanders Quarters, DJ from Jumbo Commander, etc. etc. When that many people, including high level thinkers, believe a high-stakes ban like this is absolutely wrong for the game, you have to start questioning the process by which we got here, even if you personally agree with the outcome.
My opinion is that it's time to massively expand the RC. Give seats to Josh, Jimmy, DJ, the Prof, etc. and let a larger group of folks weigh in and make the call together. Maybe even include a few folks from Wizards, like Gavin Verhey. Side bonus, give some seats to folks who aren't white guys. My point is that, individual bans aside, we as a community deserve a better process. And speaking for myself, if I felt that a large group of smart, critical people, all came together and voted by 2/3 majority (or something, it's an example), it would be a little easier for me to understand and accept why my (expensive) deck is no longer allowed.
It's about the process, even more than the outcome.
Can I use the social contract to make my Hullbreacher still worth $20? I hate this line of thought, because it treats degenerate play as inevitable, when it's not.
I have a casual five color treasures deck and my boyfriend has a casual all-pirates deck, and now we can't play with the cards we spent $20 on because some dumb kids can't regulate themselves, and so some loud mouths on the Internet complained too much, and the Commander Rules Committee needs to feel important, so they listened.
Sigh. I hate bans.
I don't agree with this, at least for TWD and any UB product that doesn't have a Magic IP version. Take Rick, Steadfast Leader for example. I have a tribal humans EDH deck lead by Morophon, the Boundless and I love playing with it. When Rick was printed, I was heartbroken. I hate UB cards because for me they're absolutely incongruous with Magic flavor and it drives me crazy. And yet, Rick is the best Humans lord ever printed. So I have to choose between two horrible outcomes: miss out on the best Lord to support one of my favorite decks, or run a card that drives me crazy and makes me sad. So I don't think it's fair to say that it's only additive.
I do think that this solution of printing Magic versions is an ok one, assuming the supply is sufficient to meet demand.
I'm not happy about this direction for the game, but I also think everyone should play with what they want, however they want. TWD? sure. Proxies? sure. The only thing that will determine if I play with you is if you're fun to play with. I'm not going to judge anyone. I also think we should keep an open mind. I'm a huge LotR fan. I wish they were NOT making a crossover, but they are, so at least I should stay positive for now. Maybe it'll be awesome!
For example, my bf runs a few extra turn spells in his Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper list and they don't feel oppressive. They feel fun and cool because the deck itself isn't built to abuse them so much as use them like Azorious extra combat steps. I run Gaea's Cradle in my Virtus, the Veiled / Gorm, the Great list, along with Lure and Thicket Basilisk as a throwback to early Magic. In that deck, Cradle is very powerful, but the thing my deck is trying to do with all that mana is totally fair. Sure, it will get blown up by the next Acidic Slime, but it's not part of a strategy designed to make my friends suffer.
Just build fun, cool, fair decks. Problem solved.