Hello guys. I've played this deck a couple years back and recently I decided to try to play it again. I have a PPTQ coming up in 3-4 weeks and I'd like to play this deck but don't know if its good enough. This is the list I'm trying right now. There are a couple of cards that i'm not sure and would like some advice or some criticism on my list.
@Jake_MG Great report. I don't think you oversiboarded, but you probably did some things that werent what id do.
First, most of the matchs when you side out vials, you side them all, you want 1 in your initial hand or none at all. Especially in grindy matchs you don't want to draw them in mid-late game.
In the affinity match the arbiters are not good enough, they are just a bear that cant even block, they have only 1 basic at most, so you can path and GQ for free anyways.
Against burn i keep the 1 drops, even if they only chump block, its something to do T1 or something to vial T2 and is important to maintain your health as high as you can and it replaces itself once you have a control of the board.
Even if GDS have command for your Blade Splicer, you are trading 1 for 1 and 3 mana for 3 mana, and that's really good for you, since most of the times their Kcommands are 2 for 1 against you or worst. And Blade Splicer is really good if they dont have Kcommand (or cant cast it).
Is 4 Horizon canopy the right number in mono W D&T ?
I was asking myself the same thing. I had not seen it as a four of before.
The Wescoe list seems quite aggressive / tempo to me, so I guess it works in his build.
Ideally you can exchange land for gas in case of a flood and the opponent should be dead before the lifeloss matters.
I imagine four to be a little painful in the more controlling variants.
Wescoe plays 4 canopy in pretty much every variation of DnT/hatebears he plays, if that tells you something... I'm not sure what is RIGHT, but i believe that at least 2 are a must, and you can play the full playset if you have confidence in your burn/aggro matchup...
To be honest, it feels like a gimped Death and Taxes. And wins through the Eldrazi like normal. That said, I can see where Chalice helps in some matchups. But at the same token, why not just jam 4 chalices in the side and play with Vial?
I actually think the better question is "why play white at all?"
The best lockdown decks in Modern are red, and they play 4-8 copies of Mooneffects in the maindeck. This build already runs maindeck SSG and Gemstone Caverns; cutting white entirely and playing red instead is just common sense. Plus you'd get access to betterremoval.
With white in the deck, the deck is just hurting itself.
This is not entirely true. While Moon effects are powerful, they don't seem to be outright game winning in modern (maybe in some specific MUs). Like in the eternal formats, mana acceleration + Chalice + Taxing (especially Thalias) is more effective than just dropping a Moon and hoping to win from there. Playing Moon forces to play a high number of Wastes which is not ideal, Magus is way too fragile in modern to be an actual Moon if you don't have the enchantment. Also, Bolt + Chalice don't get along (the reason why path is on the board), anger is only good against Dredge and little critters decks like regular DnT or Abzan CoCo (which is a deck that's falling out of flavor), it's a lackluster card against most decks.
If you were to play mana accel into moons, you'd be just better off running Sun and Moon.dek rather than eldrazi cards, this deck has a different identity and a different game plan and it feels a lot stronger than dropping a Blood Moon and hoping to draw a game winning card to ride off while the opp is mana screwed.
My 2 cents on the subject.
I disagree strongly with this whole sentiment, and I bolded the most confusing part.
The question isn't "Is Blood Moon always effective?" The question is "Which is more effective at ending a game: Blood Moon or white taxes?" And the answer is obviously Blood Moon. Sure, Blood Moon is bad against Merfolk, Elves, Affinity, etc. But so are Thalia and Arbiter in those matchups. In all of the matchups where Blood Moon is good, Blood Moon more consistently locks opponents out of a game than Arbiter or Thalia. In fact, if "White Moon" were a card, a 2W enchantment that turned all nonbasic lands into Plains, I would instantly drop Arbiter from the D&T core.
Playing Wastes just turns this into a two color deck, which isn't a problem when the only things requiring colorless mana to cast are 4 CMC and higher.
I'm not sure Moon effects is what you want in a deck that have really 4-6 basics and tries to acelerate eldrazis + lock pieces into the game. First, Blood Moon will delay your eldrazi a couple of turns if you manage to draw the 4/5 lands naturally and it'll be fatal against decks that can pressure you even with blood moon in play. Second, when Blood Moon is bad is a really dead card, when thalia and arbiter are bad, they are creatures that block and attack in worst case scenario. Third, thalia and arbiter are 1 turn faster, and that is crucial to the gameplan of the deck, put a lock piece in game T1 is really important.
While Blood Moon is game against some decks of the metagame, thalia and arbiter are important in a lot more match ups, cost less mana, don't delay your biggest threats and can attack and block.
Hi Stabil0, i fell in love with the deck as soon as i saw it and i think it seems good enough to compete in modern, especially against combo decks. I'll try to build it but the challices and canopys are really expensive for a student-level budget...
I believe that more canopies would be too dangerous in an agresive metagame, but in a world of combo and midrange they are fantastic, or at least that is my experience with that card in DnT. I dont know what to think of aether hub, as i have never played with it, but in paper it seems good, especially with Harvester.
In the sideboard, isn't that elspeth too expensive? maybe Elspeth, knight-errant (an 8/8 flying smasher seems SCARY) or Gideon, ally of Zendikar are better in that slot.
Guys, did anyone saw this list that made 5-0 in a MOL league? https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/562160
I know it's not Death and Taxes, to me it seems more like the eldrazi white lists of vintage, but it's interesting at least.
It shows that thalia and leonin are good outside of the traditionals DnT and BW eldrazi and taxes list we play, and maybe we can learn a thing or two of this kind of lists.
Maybe that is the way of build a RW variant of DnT.
Hi guys, I'm a long time reader of this forum and i've learned a lot from your post and experience.
Just wanted to come and tell you that i decided to take D&T to the last WMCQ of the year, after a mediocre finish with my beloved elves in WMCQ#2.
I choose with monoW because i thing it's the best against most of the metagame, having a consistent mana base and allowing you to play a lots of utility lands.
Long story short, i made top 8 without losing a match in swiss round, defeating affinity, RG valakut (titans and scapeshift), UWR nahiri, UB thopter sword, RUG aggro and ID the last 2 rounds to end 5-0-2 in Third place going into the top 8. I lost to dredge in quarterfinals because i kept 2 bad hands games 2 and 3 (I won game 1 =)).
Here is what i played, i tried to take away all the 1-ofs and cutes sinergies and go for a more linear list.
The MVPs of the days were Blade Splicer, Selfless Spirit and Restoration Angel, allowing thalia and arbiter won me a lots of games and hitting in the air.
4 Bloodghast
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Stinkweed Imp
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
Spells
4 Life from the Loam
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Zombie Infestation
3 Darkblast
2 Lightning Axe
2 Conflagrate
1 Raven's Crime
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Canyon Slough
No sideboard yet.
http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/contritecleric.html
First, most of the matchs when you side out vials, you side them all, you want 1 in your initial hand or none at all. Especially in grindy matchs you don't want to draw them in mid-late game.
In the affinity match the arbiters are not good enough, they are just a bear that cant even block, they have only 1 basic at most, so you can path and GQ for free anyways.
Against burn i keep the 1 drops, even if they only chump block, its something to do T1 or something to vial T2 and is important to maintain your health as high as you can and it replaces itself once you have a control of the board.
Even if GDS have command for your Blade Splicer, you are trading 1 for 1 and 3 mana for 3 mana, and that's really good for you, since most of the times their Kcommands are 2 for 1 against you or worst. And Blade Splicer is really good if they dont have Kcommand (or cant cast it).
Wescoe plays 4 canopy in pretty much every variation of DnT/hatebears he plays, if that tells you something... I'm not sure what is RIGHT, but i believe that at least 2 are a must, and you can play the full playset if you have confidence in your burn/aggro matchup...
I'm not sure Moon effects is what you want in a deck that have really 4-6 basics and tries to acelerate eldrazis + lock pieces into the game. First, Blood Moon will delay your eldrazi a couple of turns if you manage to draw the 4/5 lands naturally and it'll be fatal against decks that can pressure you even with blood moon in play. Second, when Blood Moon is bad is a really dead card, when thalia and arbiter are bad, they are creatures that block and attack in worst case scenario. Third, thalia and arbiter are 1 turn faster, and that is crucial to the gameplan of the deck, put a lock piece in game T1 is really important.
While Blood Moon is game against some decks of the metagame, thalia and arbiter are important in a lot more match ups, cost less mana, don't delay your biggest threats and can attack and block.
I believe that more canopies would be too dangerous in an agresive metagame, but in a world of combo and midrange they are fantastic, or at least that is my experience with that card in DnT. I dont know what to think of aether hub, as i have never played with it, but in paper it seems good, especially with Harvester.
In the sideboard, isn't that elspeth too expensive? maybe Elspeth, knight-errant (an 8/8 flying smasher seems SCARY) or Gideon, ally of Zendikar are better in that slot.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/562160
I know it's not Death and Taxes, to me it seems more like the eldrazi white lists of vintage, but it's interesting at least.
It shows that thalia and leonin are good outside of the traditionals DnT and BW eldrazi and taxes list we play, and maybe we can learn a thing or two of this kind of lists.
Maybe that is the way of build a RW variant of DnT.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/512905
Really solid list with a very low mana curve, altough IMO i'd change the 1-0f athreos and tweak the SB
Just wanted to come and tell you that i decided to take D&T to the last WMCQ of the year, after a mediocre finish with my beloved elves in WMCQ#2.
I choose with monoW because i thing it's the best against most of the metagame, having a consistent mana base and allowing you to play a lots of utility lands.
Long story short, i made top 8 without losing a match in swiss round, defeating affinity, RG valakut (titans and scapeshift), UWR nahiri, UB thopter sword, RUG aggro and ID the last 2 rounds to end 5-0-2 in Third place going into the top 8. I lost to dredge in quarterfinals because i kept 2 bad hands games 2 and 3 (I won game 1 =)).
Here is what i played, i tried to take away all the 1-ofs and cutes sinergies and go for a more linear list.
The MVPs of the days were Blade Splicer, Selfless Spirit and Restoration Angel, allowing thalia and arbiter won me a lots of games and hitting in the air.
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Restoration Angel
2 Aven Mindsensor
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Mutavault
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Horizon Canopy
11 Plains
2 Sunlance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Gut Shot
2 Stony Silence
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Dismember
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
I'm sorry if my english is a bit off, it's not my native language and don't doubt in asking me anything or make any critique. =)
Chain lightning
Stoneforge mystic
phyrexian metamorph
Rishadan Port
Craterhoof Behemoth
Cards that WON'T be reprinted:
Circle of protection: red
Predict
Carpet of Flowers
Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
Courser of Kruphix