Also, how does Vindictive Lich from the C17 spoilers look as a reanimator target? Every time it dies, you choose one or more: target opponent sacrifices a creature, target opponent discards 2 cards, or target opponent loses 5 life. This means you can hit multiple people at once, or throw it all at one person. I'm intrigued.
Hmm... What about Gonti, Lord of Luxury? He works as a general value card that can steal cards from opponents' decks and allows us to play them (regardless of color), which can throw off combos and take away responses to our cards (or at the very least, steal some land drops to keep them from casting stuff) and give us extra resources to work with. And since Ayli's a reanimation deck, we can sac Gonti (or use him as a rattlesnake removal piece) and reanimate him for extra value and disruption. Not only that, but if you use the Reveillark + Karmic Guide combo, he not only can give us as many cards as we want to work with-- he can just win, because he straight up just mills everyone. In other words, he's potentially a wincon if he can be put in an ETB loop.
Demon of Dark Schemes seems pretty cool. I'll have to snag one of those sometime. Chainer kinda worries me because if I invest resources into getting stuff onto the battlefield, the last thing I want is someone killing him off and wiping all of those units I brought back away too.
True! From what I recall, even if names and subtypes clash, R&D will favor subtypes over flavor for the sake of keeping synergy in the game. So rather than it being a mouse like its name claims, it's a rat instead so it will work with all the other rats in the game (there's even a rat lord so the synergy is not unwelcome if rat tribal is your thing.)
After playing a bit more, I've noticed a few cards I'm not liking too much and some I'm liking a lot.
Ones I'm not crazy about: Felidar Sovereign - It just never feels good. I know I said I wanted to do lifegain as a highlighted theme in the deck but this dude just never feels good to play or have dealt with. Either it leads to an instant removal or an unsatisfying win. I originally wanted it in as a "okay can we just end the game now" card, but even I feel gross playing it. I'm glad I never got around to getting Test of Endurance because I'm really considering taking this out.
Nezumi Graverobber - Maybe I'm just not using it right, but it only actually seems worth playing at the very start of a game, when I could just be throwing down Ayli turn two as a deterrent instead. Otherwise it doesn't seem very relevant unless I happen to have Bojuka Bog as well. And even if it flips, it feels like it never gets to do anything relevant before getting killed off.
And ones I'm really liking:
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - a Diabolic Tutor that I can use as protection, kill off something that has an LTB effect, AND recur? She's fantastic.
Erebos, God of the Dead - you haven't lived until you have an opponent make a 1000/1000 Ulasht, the Hate Seed and swing it at you, only to be hit with Swords to Plowshares. He grins, and says "well, thanks for the thousand life". I smiled and said "no." Also, having an indestructible blocker is great for chumping commanders who are trying to get in for commander damage.
Yosei, the Morning Star - Every time this card comes down, it's an extreme threat. Last two games I played, I didn't win either, but it did end up being horrible punishment for the person who killed me. I tap them out in revenge and essentially give opponents a Time Walk against them.
Still loving playing this. Keep looking forward to every Commander night at my LGS. Even if I don't win (let's face it, I'm still learning this deck and EDH politics in general against people who are seasoned veterans at it), I have a lot of fun with being a huge threat if left unchecked. Which seems to happen a lot because no one at my LGS ever sees Ayli played as a commander.
Went to play in a pod tonight for the first time. My deck is, while somewhat inefficient due to lack of fast tutors, incredibly fun and interactive and the politics were astoundingly fun to play. The game consisted of Ayli, Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Kruphix, God of Horizons, and The Gitrog Monster.
The game was basically the Gitrog player whining about bad draws the whole game, the Scion player over-extending way too quickly against two control decks, and the Kruphix player and I going back and forth, stopping each other's win conditions (I had Exquisite Blood out and was getting good lifegain from it, and he bounced my Tree of Perdition and killed my Sanguine Bond, and cast Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger to exile my Exquisite Blood. Annoyed, I cast Fiend Hunter and targeted Ulamog. He countered it. I cast Animate Dead. He bounced my Spawning Pit. He forgot that I had Ayli on the board and sac'd the Fiend Hunter to exile Ulamog forever. It felt GREAT.)
However, the Gitrog player went off on a combo one turn that took about 30 minutes, and somehow did not kill us all. The next turn? He took over an HOUR. The dude, who was borrowing the deck, forgot the wincon. He spent over an HOUR, only to die to his own combo. The Scion player, whose life I had already nuked with Tree of Perdition, had taken beats from the Kruphix player to 4 (who wouldn't target me because I had 101 life by that point), and played a spiteful Toxic Deluge to kill my Ayli and scooped. The Kruphix player was at 17, and I dropped him to 13, and attempted to reanimate Gray Merchant of Asphodel a couple times to kill him, but after a couple boardwipes I didn't have enough devotion to finish the job. At my end step, he Planar Bridge'd in a Blightsteel Colossus, bounced my Gray Merchant and Tree, and swung for an Infect win. I've never had such a firm handshake after such a long game.
All in all, I'm glad I built this deck and hope to enhance it with time. It's delightfully political and I love that.
Good points. Rune-Tail and the Faithmender are out. A little sad, because I was hoping I finally had a home for old Rune-Tail. It's another one of my pet cards.
As far as Eldrazi Displacer goes, I think I should be okay. I have 7 lands that produce can colorless mana-- 8 if I keep one I originally planned but cut because it's more friendly to swarm-based decks (Vault of the Archangel). It's another reason why I wanted to be sure to keep Expedition Map around.
3 more to cut... Bitter Ordeal and... I don't know. Soul Warden? The Ordeal because it's single-target and not as versatile as Profane Command and the Warden because... I don't know. She's great but not 100% vital?
EDIT: Yeah, final three cuts are Bitter Ordeal, Soul Warden, and Dictate of Erebos. It seems like a great card and probably is, but it's too disruptive and will probably backfire on me.
Down to 68/100. Need to drop 4 more if I want to fit 36 lands in the deck. Divinity of Pride is a maybe, it still isn't that great as far as synergy goes (as in, it's not as easy to reanimate and as cheaply costed as Serra Ascendant), but it's a great card paired with Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, which is among my lands. Rhox Faithmender too, potentially. But as for what else... hmm. Everything else seems to fit either with the combos pretty well, or help pave the path toward dropping finishers. Ghostly Prison and/or Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant may not be very vital to the deck, but they help me protect myself while I assemble the game winning combos. Maybe Soul Warden? Hmmm.
Just wanna say again that I really appreciate the input, guys. This is still pretty new territory for me.
I haven't even mentioned my lands yet because I wanted to confirm my color distributions first, so removing the Map is something I want to avoid for the moment. And the Priest is mostly there as a reanimate-able combo piece for unlimited mana for finishers, as a backup, should Ashnod's Altar be taken out of the picture. I can understand removing the priest though.
Profane Command seems really useful as a versatile modal spell-- it can kill an opponent and get me back an expensive creature, and so on. Is it really not that good?
The more I think on it, the more I wanna keep Gray Merchant of Asphodel in; it really does seem like a Reveillark-compatible Kokusho with the right board state-- and that means Divinity of Pride might be able to stay too. So maybe bring those back in and drop Profane Command and Priest of Gix? I don't know... Is Blind Obedience something I can live without? Thalia, Heretic Cathar seems to have the better effect by slowing everyone down, and I can reanimate her, too.
Maybe something like Rule of Law to slow down multi-spell combos? And we could at least protect ourselves from targeted spells with Leyline of Sanctity? Protect our creatures from Cyclonic Rift with Eerie Interlude or Ghostway, both of which also give us some ETB recursion?
Meanwhile, I'm still puzzling over what cards to remove from the deck so I can fit my manabase in. So far I've taken out: Zulaport Cutthroat - Blood Artist just seems better Kambal, Consul of Allocation - It may be a way to punish spellslingers, but he doesn't really fit in with the combos. I dunno about him. Wall of Reverence - not a lot of high power creatures in the deck, even if it's got a decent body Black Market - The only time it seems really good is if I'm already winning Palace Siege - Sheoldred, Whispering One and Phyrexian Reclamation seem a bit more efficient Fumigate - Not so sure if I should be taking out sweepers, but I still have Profane Command, Toxic Deluge, and Merciless Eviction. Or should I just be going all out with sweepers? I don't know. Liliana Vess - The odds of me pulling off her ultimate are low, and she doesn't have the recursion potential for tutoring like Sidisi, Undead Vizier does. In fact, pairing Sidisi and Gift of Immortality essentially gives me a tutor every turn. So this Lili's out. Gray Merchant of Asphodel - Honestly, he's potentially better than Kokusho, the Evening Star when it comes to draining everyone's life at once, depending on how much your devotion to black is. More importantly, he's able to be recurred with the Reveillark/Karmic Guide combo, while Kokusho isn't. But at the same time, I guess my reasoning was just that if I was going off with that combo, Blood Artist would just be as effective. I don't know. Maybe he can come back, I'm not sure yet. Beacon of Immortality - It just doesn't seem necessary when I have so many more lifegain combos going on. Serra Avatar - It may be my pet card for this deck, but it's kind of in the same boat as the Beacon. Not efficient enough to abuse, no matter how fun it may seem to have an enormous/enormous creature on the battlefield. Divinity of Pride - Great card that's nice and flavorful for the deck, but without Gray Merchant it doesn't have the same presence. Serra Ascendant does the same job and it is much easier to reanimate as Sun Titan and Reveillark can bring it back.
So that's 11 cards out, so I'm down to 66/100. I just need to take 1 or 2 more out... Bitter Ordeal, maybe? It's a little harder to abuse than Blasting Station, which is a permanent I can get back with Sun Titan or Argivian Find AND if I combo off, it kills everyone and anything without indestructible/hexproof. Meanwhile the Ordeal only hits one opponent and if it's countered, it's a dead card as I don't have, like, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed to grab it back (and probably won't anytime soon).
Maybe 35 lands will be enough, since I removed a big chunk of the high end of my curve?
Also:
Regarding unfun wincons: Eye of the beholder, honestly. Turning creatures sideways is just one way to win the game. I can understand how lock wincons can be unfun because they don't win right away, but just how many of our combos are "out-of-nowhere"? It doesn't really take the most perceptive person to realize what an Ayli deck is trying to do, and it isn't like our combos aren't able to be disrupted if you know what you're doing, too. And besides, I like unconventional win conditions. Decks that rush to win an EDH game in the first few turns are what I feel are unfun to play against, because it means not everyone is getting a chance to play. It may be competitive, but this isn't Legacy or Modern, you know? Slow down and have some fun, play politics and stuff.
Okay! So I've managed to collect all the cards I want to work with, and took out a few cards from before. I decided to really focus more on the reanimation theme than anything else, so I tried my best to emphasize that while still maintaining combo potentials. So!
So I happened to find out I had a playset of Surgical Extraction and a Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle that I'll never use, so I took them to my LGS and got a ton of store credit which let me get some of the more expensive pieces without breaking my bank.
It's starting to have a more concrete design, which I am liking. But my curve is still very weird (2 and 3 drops have the majority of the deckspace, but I still have a ton of 5 drops and almost no 4 drops). So I'm trying to figure out what to cut before putting a manabase together (and I should add it's not going to be stellar, a lot of the lands that are best for this deck are really expensive and kind of exclusively good in this deck and none of my other decks).
I took out some of the incremental lifegain cards such as Soul's Attendant and those that benefit from it, such as Karlov of the Ghost Council and Archangel of Thune (they'll go better in my Breya deck, which is all about spawning a TON of thopters and pumping them up and then sacrificing them and sweeping). All that's really left to do, I think, is shave off enough cards to fit in a manabase. I also took out Alhammarret's Archive and put Rhox Faithmender back in, as it's a valid Reveillark target (in fact, a LOT of cards in this deck are).
But what should I take out... I have a few in mind, but I'm still stuck: Zulaport Cutthroat - Blood Artist does everything he does, but better-- he may not target all players at once, but that's good if I in some situation I don't want to combo off and hit everyone at once. Either way, since there's so much recursion and reanimation, do I really need 2 cards with the same effect? I'll keep one as a wincon piece though, because if I can go off with an unlimited ETB/LTB loop, everyone dies.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar or Blind Obedience - Again, don't really need 2 cards with the same effect when I'm overloaded like this. Probably Blind Obedience as Thalia can be reanimated? But then again, Sun Titan hits both, too. Not sure.
Wall of Reverence- It's good, and a Reveillark target, but I don't know if it's really necessary.
Phyrexian Reclamation - It's nice and cheap, but there's enough recursion now, I think... right?
Beacon of Immortality - Serra Avatar, when combined with Ayli, pretty much does exactly what this does. It's technically the Beacon on a body and even better if I pair it with Gift of Immortality... (that overrides the "shuffle it into your library" effect, right?)
Palace Siege - Great way to get creatures back, but it's expensive and not as effective as, say, Sheoldred.... maybe.
Black Market - If I'm comboing off and getting a lot of dead creatures built up, I think it's safe to say I'm already winning. This might be better in my other EDH deck.
One of the sweepers - maybe Fumigate? I just think I might have too many.
That's 8 cards out of the whole 77, and I'm assuming I'll need 36-37 lands for this... so I'll need to prune out about 7 or 8 after the ones above to be able to be in that area.
How is it looking so far? Am I on a better track now?
And I'll make a point of grabbing those others you mentioned when I get the chance too. If I put in Knight-Captain of Eos, it'd only make sense to put Elspeth back in, but I'm getting concerned that I'm putting too many 5 and 6 drops in... hmm.
I looked through the guide of combos and suggestions again, and I think I'll also be grabbing:
Bitter Ordeal and Blasting Station especially, as they're 3 drops and suit the curve of the deck better, right? As it is, my deck concept doesn't have a lot of game-ending combos, so they'd be a great addition. They're not as flashy as say, locking everyone out with Yosei or decimating everyone with Kokusho (and the only reason I'm getting Yosei over Kokusho is price honestly), but they get the job done. Mangara is just a nice, cheap, recursion-friendly removal card. I'll also be putting one of my Eldrazi Displacer and Fiend Hunter in for exploits.
Now I think my problem is, I have way too many 5-drops in this deck. I'm not sure what to cut! They're all so good.
Oh wow! Don't mind the wall of text at all, that level of analysis is excellent. Thank you so much for your insight!
I'll give my thoughts on each portion respectively.
Lands:Everflowing Chalice was one I was really on the fence with because I was thinking "oh, make lots of tokens and sac them to the altar to pay the kicker a bunch of times and have a mana rock that taps for a lot"-- but even if I DID use such a cumbersome method, it could be removed, leaving me with nothing-- and that sacrifice could have gone toward something more effective. It's out. I'll put Mind Stone in and pick up an Orzhov Signet while I'm out today. I'll throw in Thought Vessel too, as something that can support the card draw.
Is there anything else I should be considering here? I confess, I'm pretty new to EDH and mana rocks always end up being the last thing on my mind.
Theme/Archetype: The reason why I was so overloaded on non-land cards is because I wasn't sure what was right to make the cut. I think I may need to ditch the tokens subtheme and focus more on a reanimation theme. The main reason why I wanted to try tokens was mainly as fodder for Ayli's second ability, killing off the tokens as ammunition. But I'll agree that maybe I'm trying too hard to blend two concepts together and getting a really lackluster result. I probably would be better off getting rid of that and focusing more on reanimation. So I'll remove:
Phyrexian Processor, I confess, was one of the more silly options I wanted to try, but you're right that it's probably not the best option. The idea was to use it as a finisher-- gain a ton of life and then pay not all of it, but a decent amount, to have a card that can feed out huge bodies for attacking and blocking and sacrifice, gaining the life right back as soon as I use it. But it's probably unnecessary, so I'll drop it too.
So that leaves more space for a reanimation-style theme, which I'm sure is more the point of Ayli as a commander anyway and opens me up to some better finishing combos (Kokusho, Yosei, etc). There's a lot to consider here-- what would probably be the most important pieces for that?
As far as targeted removal goes-- I didn't really put much in because my original idea was to use Ayli's second ability to sac tokens and snipe things. But it's probably not the best idea. Would it be better to run instant/sorcery based removal, or throw in stuff to reanimate/recur like Fiend Hunter, Mangara of Corondor, Ashen Rider, Angel of Serenity, and so on? I didn't really consider Ashen Rider or Archon of Justice or Angel of Serenity because they had such a large mana cost.
Mana Curve: Very good points here. Here's some more stuff I'm cutting: Ajani's Pridemate- Karlov of the Ghost Council does everything the Pridemate can do, and better. Tymna the Weaver- Reasons mentioned before, I just won't be attacking all that much. Rhox Faithmender- Alhammarret's Archive has a better effect, but this is something I can reanimate. Not 100% sure on this one Aetherflux Reservoir- You had good points on this one. It's out. Whip of Erebos- I confess, this was mostly a flavor card because I have Erebos, God of the Dead and Dictate of Erebos in the deck. Also good points about losing toys after reanimating them. Puppeteer Clique does a more fun job of that anyway, letting me use my opponents' graveyards and creatures instead. Tainted Remedy- This was mostly meant to be sort of a snark at my friend that I play 1v1 commander with when he's in town, since he plays Trostani, Selesnya's Voice to gain ridiculous amounts of life. Also flavorful with Liliana, Heretical Healer, but not necessary when Erebos, God of the Dead already locks opponents out of lifegain and I can ruin anyone's lifegain with Tree of Perdition. Ravos, Soultender- I don't know if he's right to cut or not-- he lets me grab a creature out of my graveyard every turn for free, after all. And the card just looks really cool. But he is kind of a nonbo with Skullclamp and Sheoldred, Whispering One probably does that job better-- I just don't have that and it's kind of a pricey card, both in cost and mana. Elspeth, Sun's Champion- Great in a token theme, but kind of pointless outside of it. Good for Altar fodder, but a reanimation theme has better things to do that with.
Last Thoughts: Also good points-- Corpse Dance already does what the Whip does with more combo potential anyway, yeah?
So far, that's 16 cards cut overall, leaving me with:
Whow, Xen.. Kelzam :-)! What a detailed analysis. @ MatsuriFramboise: I feel Teysa, Orzhov Scion might perhaps be better, should you decide to go to a more token-focused BW deck instead of Ayli.
Yeah, also a good point. I want to build a deck for her someday too, but not for a long while (I have other decks I want to build first).
So here's the first rough draft of the deck I've got going right now. I'm not really sure if I'm on the right track with this since I'm not following your theme to a T, but if you could give me some tips, I'd greatly appreciate it because I'm not sure what to leave in and what to take out because they're not effective. (As such, I haven't accounted for lands just yet.)
Stuff I have at the side at the moment for consideration but can't decide on: Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Blind Obedience - Blind Obedience seems like the better choice, but it didn't really seem that important Grand Abolisher - Might be nice on turns when I'm going off with a finisher? Underworld Connections - I have better draw engines, I think Sorin, Solemn Visitor - Seems good and fits my theme of lifegain with a pseudo-anthem that gives lifelink, makes tokens, and has an emblem that forces opponents to sacrifice things Nihil Spellbomb - Quick graveyard hate that draws a card could be useful Magus of the Will - Because I can't justify buying Yawgmoth's Will right now Sorin, Grim Nemesis - Seems like a great card, but I don't have the Sensei's Divining Top and such to make his +1 really useful. But either way it's card draw? I don't know. Spectral Procession - With all the reanimation this deck can do, I don't know if it's necessary. Lingering Souls is better anyway. Liliana Vess - Nice utilities! Her -8 is pretty cool. But I already have a Liliana in this deck so I dunno if I want to risk pairing them up. Mark of Asylum - Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant's able to be reanimated, and the enchantment covers more ground. Angelic Accord - Seems like a useful card since I'll be gaining a lot of life, but let's be real, it's because I didn't spring for Luminarch Ascension yet
How does it look so far?
Also on my wish list of sorts that aren't listed at all: Sheoldred, Kokusho, Yosei, Weathered Wayfarer, Rune-Scarred Demon, Vish Kal, Karmic Guide, Reveillark, Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Hello! Really liking this guide and I've been using it for inspiration ever since I decided I wanted to start building an Ayli deck (main theme: drain/bleed lifegain wincons, with a token subtheme for use as ammo for Ashnod's Altar or Ayli's second ability, for throwing out spot removal/disruption).
I haven't totally finished my deck yet, but I had a question. Since I'm focusing on lifegain/draining for this deck, one of the cards I planned for my 99 was Serra Avatar. It seems like it has good potential, but I want to be sure before I try it: Say I have 100 life and I sacrifice the Avatar to Ayli's first skill. Would I gain 100 life from that as it's toughness would be 100, tied to my life total, or would it be zero as it's a * amount? Because if it works like I hope it does, it'd have a Beacon of Immortality effect that pairs beautifully with Sanguine Bond or Vizkopa Guildmage. A shame you can't really do any recursion shenanigans with it, though.
I haven't disappeared from the face of the earth! I've just been on a mtg hiatus.
Anyway, seeing MM17 spoilers has reminded me that Venser, Shaper Savant is a thing. Would he be potentially a good choice for a UW version of this deck that also runs Eldrazi? You could bounce a spell or permanent back to their hand with Venser and TKS it away, and keep some pressure on their hand by repeating the process with Eldrazi Displacer or Flickerwisp (with a little less control, since you wouldn't necessarily be able to bounce spells that way).
I originally wasn't going to answer this post as I feel that I've yelled about venser a good bit on here and had hoped you might see that, but with people trying to steer you in the other direction, I feel I've got to speak up.
Venser is one of the best cards WU had to offer imo, especially in the more tempo oriented builds of WU that are popular these days with spell queller and r mage. It's absolutely broken with displacer and is still phenomenal without it. If you want to run it, you do however need to be pretty invested in your splash and not microsplash.
I wouldn't have seen it because I've been MIA from competitive Magic since like October. Just kinda lost the spark for it, I guess.
But I'm glad to see opinions on both sides of the matter. It'd definitely take some investment into the manabase for sure. Maybe running Mystic Gate and Adarkar Wastes as the duals would work well, since they also provide colorless for Displacer/TKS to work with?
Also, how does Vindictive Lich from the C17 spoilers look as a reanimator target? Every time it dies, you choose one or more: target opponent sacrifices a creature, target opponent discards 2 cards, or target opponent loses 5 life. This means you can hit multiple people at once, or throw it all at one person. I'm intrigued.
True! From what I recall, even if names and subtypes clash, R&D will favor subtypes over flavor for the sake of keeping synergy in the game. So rather than it being a mouse like its name claims, it's a rat instead so it will work with all the other rats in the game (there's even a rat lord so the synergy is not unwelcome if rat tribal is your thing.)
After playing a bit more, I've noticed a few cards I'm not liking too much and some I'm liking a lot.
Ones I'm not crazy about:
Felidar Sovereign - It just never feels good. I know I said I wanted to do lifegain as a highlighted theme in the deck but this dude just never feels good to play or have dealt with. Either it leads to an instant removal or an unsatisfying win. I originally wanted it in as a "okay can we just end the game now" card, but even I feel gross playing it. I'm glad I never got around to getting Test of Endurance because I'm really considering taking this out.
Nezumi Graverobber - Maybe I'm just not using it right, but it only actually seems worth playing at the very start of a game, when I could just be throwing down Ayli turn two as a deterrent instead. Otherwise it doesn't seem very relevant unless I happen to have Bojuka Bog as well. And even if it flips, it feels like it never gets to do anything relevant before getting killed off.
And ones I'm really liking:
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - a Diabolic Tutor that I can use as protection, kill off something that has an LTB effect, AND recur? She's fantastic.
Erebos, God of the Dead - you haven't lived until you have an opponent make a 1000/1000 Ulasht, the Hate Seed and swing it at you, only to be hit with Swords to Plowshares. He grins, and says "well, thanks for the thousand life". I smiled and said "no." Also, having an indestructible blocker is great for chumping commanders who are trying to get in for commander damage.
Yosei, the Morning Star - Every time this card comes down, it's an extreme threat. Last two games I played, I didn't win either, but it did end up being horrible punishment for the person who killed me. I tap them out in revenge and essentially give opponents a Time Walk against them.
Still loving playing this. Keep looking forward to every Commander night at my LGS. Even if I don't win (let's face it, I'm still learning this deck and EDH politics in general against people who are seasoned veterans at it), I have a lot of fun with being a huge threat if left unchecked. Which seems to happen a lot because no one at my LGS ever sees Ayli played as a commander.
The game was basically the Gitrog player whining about bad draws the whole game, the Scion player over-extending way too quickly against two control decks, and the Kruphix player and I going back and forth, stopping each other's win conditions (I had Exquisite Blood out and was getting good lifegain from it, and he bounced my Tree of Perdition and killed my Sanguine Bond, and cast Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger to exile my Exquisite Blood. Annoyed, I cast Fiend Hunter and targeted Ulamog. He countered it. I cast Animate Dead. He bounced my Spawning Pit. He forgot that I had Ayli on the board and sac'd the Fiend Hunter to exile Ulamog forever. It felt GREAT.)
However, the Gitrog player went off on a combo one turn that took about 30 minutes, and somehow did not kill us all. The next turn? He took over an HOUR. The dude, who was borrowing the deck, forgot the wincon. He spent over an HOUR, only to die to his own combo. The Scion player, whose life I had already nuked with Tree of Perdition, had taken beats from the Kruphix player to 4 (who wouldn't target me because I had 101 life by that point), and played a spiteful Toxic Deluge to kill my Ayli and scooped. The Kruphix player was at 17, and I dropped him to 13, and attempted to reanimate Gray Merchant of Asphodel a couple times to kill him, but after a couple boardwipes I didn't have enough devotion to finish the job. At my end step, he Planar Bridge'd in a Blightsteel Colossus, bounced my Gray Merchant and Tree, and swung for an Infect win. I've never had such a firm handshake after such a long game.
All in all, I'm glad I built this deck and hope to enhance it with time. It's delightfully political and I love that.
3 more to cut left. You have good points on both Blind Obedience and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, so they can stay.
As far as Eldrazi Displacer goes, I think I should be okay. I have 7 lands that produce can colorless mana-- 8 if I keep one I originally planned but cut because it's more friendly to swarm-based decks (Vault of the Archangel). It's another reason why I wanted to be sure to keep Expedition Map around.
3 more to cut... Bitter Ordeal and... I don't know. Soul Warden? The Ordeal because it's single-target and not as versatile as Profane Command and the Warden because... I don't know. She's great but not 100% vital?
EDIT: Yeah, final three cuts are Bitter Ordeal, Soul Warden, and Dictate of Erebos. It seems like a great card and probably is, but it's too disruptive and will probably backfire on me.
My drop list now:
Zulaport Cutthroat
Blind Obedience
Priest of Gix
Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Wall of Reverence
Black Market
Palace Siege
Liliana Vess
Serra Avatar
Down to 68/100. Need to drop 4 more if I want to fit 36 lands in the deck. Divinity of Pride is a maybe, it still isn't that great as far as synergy goes (as in, it's not as easy to reanimate and as cheaply costed as Serra Ascendant), but it's a great card paired with Gray Merchant of Asphodel or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, which is among my lands. Rhox Faithmender too, potentially. But as for what else... hmm. Everything else seems to fit either with the combos pretty well, or help pave the path toward dropping finishers. Ghostly Prison and/or Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant may not be very vital to the deck, but they help me protect myself while I assemble the game winning combos. Maybe Soul Warden? Hmmm.
Just wanna say again that I really appreciate the input, guys. This is still pretty new territory for me.
I haven't even mentioned my lands yet because I wanted to confirm my color distributions first, so removing the Map is something I want to avoid for the moment. And the Priest is mostly there as a reanimate-able combo piece for unlimited mana for finishers, as a backup, should Ashnod's Altar be taken out of the picture. I can understand removing the priest though.
Profane Command seems really useful as a versatile modal spell-- it can kill an opponent and get me back an expensive creature, and so on. Is it really not that good?
The more I think on it, the more I wanna keep Gray Merchant of Asphodel in; it really does seem like a Reveillark-compatible Kokusho with the right board state-- and that means Divinity of Pride might be able to stay too. So maybe bring those back in and drop Profane Command and Priest of Gix? I don't know... Is Blind Obedience something I can live without? Thalia, Heretic Cathar seems to have the better effect by slowing everyone down, and I can reanimate her, too.
Meanwhile, I'm still puzzling over what cards to remove from the deck so I can fit my manabase in. So far I've taken out:
Zulaport Cutthroat - Blood Artist just seems better
Kambal, Consul of Allocation - It may be a way to punish spellslingers, but he doesn't really fit in with the combos. I dunno about him.
Wall of Reverence - not a lot of high power creatures in the deck, even if it's got a decent body
Black Market - The only time it seems really good is if I'm already winning
Palace Siege - Sheoldred, Whispering One and Phyrexian Reclamation seem a bit more efficient
Fumigate - Not so sure if I should be taking out sweepers, but I still have Profane Command, Toxic Deluge, and Merciless Eviction. Or should I just be going all out with sweepers? I don't know.
Liliana Vess - The odds of me pulling off her ultimate are low, and she doesn't have the recursion potential for tutoring like Sidisi, Undead Vizier does. In fact, pairing Sidisi and Gift of Immortality essentially gives me a tutor every turn. So this Lili's out.
Gray Merchant of Asphodel - Honestly, he's potentially better than Kokusho, the Evening Star when it comes to draining everyone's life at once, depending on how much your devotion to black is. More importantly, he's able to be recurred with the Reveillark/Karmic Guide combo, while Kokusho isn't. But at the same time, I guess my reasoning was just that if I was going off with that combo, Blood Artist would just be as effective. I don't know. Maybe he can come back, I'm not sure yet.
Beacon of Immortality - It just doesn't seem necessary when I have so many more lifegain combos going on.
Serra Avatar - It may be my pet card for this deck, but it's kind of in the same boat as the Beacon. Not efficient enough to abuse, no matter how fun it may seem to have an enormous/enormous creature on the battlefield.
Divinity of Pride - Great card that's nice and flavorful for the deck, but without Gray Merchant it doesn't have the same presence. Serra Ascendant does the same job and it is much easier to reanimate as Sun Titan and Reveillark can bring it back.
So that's 11 cards out, so I'm down to 66/100. I just need to take 1 or 2 more out... Bitter Ordeal, maybe? It's a little harder to abuse than Blasting Station, which is a permanent I can get back with Sun Titan or Argivian Find AND if I combo off, it kills everyone and anything without indestructible/hexproof. Meanwhile the Ordeal only hits one opponent and if it's countered, it's a dead card as I don't have, like, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed to grab it back (and probably won't anytime soon).
Maybe 35 lands will be enough, since I removed a big chunk of the high end of my curve?
Also:
Regarding unfun wincons: Eye of the beholder, honestly. Turning creatures sideways is just one way to win the game. I can understand how lock wincons can be unfun because they don't win right away, but just how many of our combos are "out-of-nowhere"? It doesn't really take the most perceptive person to realize what an Ayli deck is trying to do, and it isn't like our combos aren't able to be disrupted if you know what you're doing, too. And besides, I like unconventional win conditions. Decks that rush to win an EDH game in the first few turns are what I feel are unfun to play against, because it means not everyone is getting a chance to play. It may be competitive, but this isn't Legacy or Modern, you know? Slow down and have some fun, play politics and stuff.
1 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
Creatures:
1 Soul Warden
1 Viscera Seer
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Vizkopa Guildmage
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Blood Artist
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Rune-tail, Kitsune Ascendant
1 Priest of Gix
1 Rhox Faithmender
1 Tree of Perdition
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Wall of Reverence
1 Karmic Guide
1 Reveillark
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Felidar Sovereign
1 Sun Titan
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Serra Avatar
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Expedition Map
1 Thought Vessel
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Spawning Pit
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Blasting Station
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Well of Lost Dreams
Enchantments:
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Blind Obedience
1 Animate Dead
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Gift of Immortality
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Black Market
1 Palace Siege
1 Exquisite Blood
1 Sanguine Bond
Instants:
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Argivian Find
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Corpse Dance
1 Beacon of Immortality
1 Profane Command
1 Exsanguinate
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Unburial Rites
1 Fumigate
1 Merciless Eviction
Planeswalkers:
1 Liliana Vess
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands:
1 Undecided
TappedOut link for stats
So I happened to find out I had a playset of Surgical Extraction and a Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle that I'll never use, so I took them to my LGS and got a ton of store credit which let me get some of the more expensive pieces without breaking my bank.
It's starting to have a more concrete design, which I am liking. But my curve is still very weird (2 and 3 drops have the majority of the deckspace, but I still have a ton of 5 drops and almost no 4 drops). So I'm trying to figure out what to cut before putting a manabase together (and I should add it's not going to be stellar, a lot of the lands that are best for this deck are really expensive and kind of exclusively good in this deck and none of my other decks).
I took out some of the incremental lifegain cards such as Soul's Attendant and those that benefit from it, such as Karlov of the Ghost Council and Archangel of Thune (they'll go better in my Breya deck, which is all about spawning a TON of thopters and pumping them up and then sacrificing them and sweeping). All that's really left to do, I think, is shave off enough cards to fit in a manabase. I also took out Alhammarret's Archive and put Rhox Faithmender back in, as it's a valid Reveillark target (in fact, a LOT of cards in this deck are).
But what should I take out... I have a few in mind, but I'm still stuck:
Zulaport Cutthroat - Blood Artist does everything he does, but better-- he may not target all players at once, but that's good if I in some situation I don't want to combo off and hit everyone at once. Either way, since there's so much recursion and reanimation, do I really need 2 cards with the same effect? I'll keep one as a wincon piece though, because if I can go off with an unlimited ETB/LTB loop, everyone dies.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar or Blind Obedience - Again, don't really need 2 cards with the same effect when I'm overloaded like this. Probably Blind Obedience as Thalia can be reanimated? But then again, Sun Titan hits both, too. Not sure.
Wall of Reverence- It's good, and a Reveillark target, but I don't know if it's really necessary.
Phyrexian Reclamation - It's nice and cheap, but there's enough recursion now, I think... right?
Beacon of Immortality - Serra Avatar, when combined with Ayli, pretty much does exactly what this does. It's technically the Beacon on a body and even better if I pair it with Gift of Immortality... (that overrides the "shuffle it into your library" effect, right?)
Palace Siege - Great way to get creatures back, but it's expensive and not as effective as, say, Sheoldred.... maybe.
Black Market - If I'm comboing off and getting a lot of dead creatures built up, I think it's safe to say I'm already winning. This might be better in my other EDH deck.
One of the sweepers - maybe Fumigate? I just think I might have too many.
That's 8 cards out of the whole 77, and I'm assuming I'll need 36-37 lands for this... so I'll need to prune out about 7 or 8 after the ones above to be able to be in that area.
How is it looking so far? Am I on a better track now?
And I'll make a point of grabbing those others you mentioned when I get the chance too. If I put in Knight-Captain of Eos, it'd only make sense to put Elspeth back in, but I'm getting concerned that I'm putting too many 5 and 6 drops in... hmm.
I looked through the guide of combos and suggestions again, and I think I'll also be grabbing:
Bitter Ordeal and Blasting Station especially, as they're 3 drops and suit the curve of the deck better, right? As it is, my deck concept doesn't have a lot of game-ending combos, so they'd be a great addition. They're not as flashy as say, locking everyone out with Yosei or decimating everyone with Kokusho (and the only reason I'm getting Yosei over Kokusho is price honestly), but they get the job done. Mangara is just a nice, cheap, recursion-friendly removal card. I'll also be putting one of my Eldrazi Displacer and Fiend Hunter in for exploits.
Now I think my problem is, I have way too many 5-drops in this deck. I'm not sure what to cut! They're all so good.
I'll give my thoughts on each portion respectively.
Lands: Everflowing Chalice was one I was really on the fence with because I was thinking "oh, make lots of tokens and sac them to the altar to pay the kicker a bunch of times and have a mana rock that taps for a lot"-- but even if I DID use such a cumbersome method, it could be removed, leaving me with nothing-- and that sacrifice could have gone toward something more effective. It's out. I'll put Mind Stone in and pick up an Orzhov Signet while I'm out today. I'll throw in Thought Vessel too, as something that can support the card draw.
Is there anything else I should be considering here? I confess, I'm pretty new to EDH and mana rocks always end up being the last thing on my mind.
Theme/Archetype: The reason why I was so overloaded on non-land cards is because I wasn't sure what was right to make the cut. I think I may need to ditch the tokens subtheme and focus more on a reanimation theme. The main reason why I wanted to try tokens was mainly as fodder for Ayli's second ability, killing off the tokens as ammunition. But I'll agree that maybe I'm trying too hard to blend two concepts together and getting a really lackluster result. I probably would be better off getting rid of that and focusing more on reanimation. So I'll remove:
Phyrexian Processor, I confess, was one of the more silly options I wanted to try, but you're right that it's probably not the best option. The idea was to use it as a finisher-- gain a ton of life and then pay not all of it, but a decent amount, to have a card that can feed out huge bodies for attacking and blocking and sacrifice, gaining the life right back as soon as I use it. But it's probably unnecessary, so I'll drop it too.
So that leaves more space for a reanimation-style theme, which I'm sure is more the point of Ayli as a commander anyway and opens me up to some better finishing combos (Kokusho, Yosei, etc). There's a lot to consider here-- what would probably be the most important pieces for that?
Card Draw: Fair points. Dark Prophecy's out.
Finishers: Yeah, Death Grasp was there because it was kind of my best option of cards I had in my collection. I'll drop it and pick up Profane Command, Exsanguinate, and Debt to the Deathless. Maybe Merciless Eviction too, it does seem good.
As far as targeted removal goes-- I didn't really put much in because my original idea was to use Ayli's second ability to sac tokens and snipe things. But it's probably not the best idea. Would it be better to run instant/sorcery based removal, or throw in stuff to reanimate/recur like Fiend Hunter, Mangara of Corondor, Ashen Rider, Angel of Serenity, and so on? I didn't really consider Ashen Rider or Archon of Justice or Angel of Serenity because they had such a large mana cost.
Mana Curve: Very good points here. Here's some more stuff I'm cutting:
Ajani's Pridemate- Karlov of the Ghost Council does everything the Pridemate can do, and better.
Tymna the Weaver- Reasons mentioned before, I just won't be attacking all that much.
Rhox Faithmender- Alhammarret's Archive has a better effect, but this is something I can reanimate. Not 100% sure on this one
Aetherflux Reservoir- You had good points on this one. It's out.
Whip of Erebos- I confess, this was mostly a flavor card because I have Erebos, God of the Dead and Dictate of Erebos in the deck. Also good points about losing toys after reanimating them. Puppeteer Clique does a more fun job of that anyway, letting me use my opponents' graveyards and creatures instead.
Tainted Remedy- This was mostly meant to be sort of a snark at my friend that I play 1v1 commander with when he's in town, since he plays Trostani, Selesnya's Voice to gain ridiculous amounts of life. Also flavorful with Liliana, Heretical Healer, but not necessary when Erebos, God of the Dead already locks opponents out of lifegain and I can ruin anyone's lifegain with Tree of Perdition.
Ravos, Soultender- I don't know if he's right to cut or not-- he lets me grab a creature out of my graveyard every turn for free, after all. And the card just looks really cool. But he is kind of a nonbo with Skullclamp and Sheoldred, Whispering One probably does that job better-- I just don't have that and it's kind of a pricey card, both in cost and mana.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion- Great in a token theme, but kind of pointless outside of it. Good for Altar fodder, but a reanimation theme has better things to do that with.
Last Thoughts: Also good points-- Corpse Dance already does what the Whip does with more combo potential anyway, yeah?
So far, that's 16 cards cut overall, leaving me with:
1 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
Creatures:
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Soul Warden
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Vizkopa Guildmage
1 Karlov of the Ghost Council
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Blood Artist
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
1 Priest of Gix
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Wall of Reverence
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Tree of Perdition
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Ravos, Soultender
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Felidar Sovereign
1 Sun Titan
1 Serra Avatar
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Animate Dead
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Gift of Immortality
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Necropotence
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Black Market
1 Palace Siege
1 Sanguine Bond
1 Exquisite Blood
Artifacts:
1 Expedition Map
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Well of Lost Dreams
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Beacon of Immortality
Sorceries:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Fumigate
1 Unburial Rites
Planeswalkers:
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
And to add to my list of things to get for now, but I probably won't go out and get them until I have a totally finished idea for this deck:
Yeah, also a good point. I want to build a deck for her someday too, but not for a long while (I have other decks I want to build first).
So here's the first rough draft of the deck I've got going right now. I'm not really sure if I'm on the right track with this since I'm not following your theme to a T, but if you could give me some tips, I'd greatly appreciate it because I'm not sure what to leave in and what to take out because they're not effective. (As such, I haven't accounted for lands just yet.)
1 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
Creatures:
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Soul Warden
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Vizkopa Guildmage
1 Karlov of the Ghost Council
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Ajani's Pridemate
1 Blood Artist
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
1 Priest of Gix
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Tymna the Weaver
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Rhox Faithmender
1 Wall of Reverence
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Tree of Perdition
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Ravos, Soultender
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Felidar Sovereign
1 Sun Titan
1 Serra Avatar
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Hidden Stockpile
1 Angelic Renewal
1 Animate Dead
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Gift of Immortality
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Tainted Remedy
1 Necropotence
1 Dark Prophecy
1 Anointed Procession
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Black Market
1 Palace Siege
1 Sanguine Bond
1 Exquisite Blood
Artifacts:
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Expedition Map
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Oketra's Monument
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Phyrexian Processor
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Well of Lost Dreams
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Beacon of Immortality
Sorceries:
1 Death Grasp
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Fumigate
1 Unburial Rites
Planeswalkers:
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Stuff I have at the side at the moment for consideration but can't decide on:
Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Blind Obedience - Blind Obedience seems like the better choice, but it didn't really seem that important
Grand Abolisher - Might be nice on turns when I'm going off with a finisher?
Underworld Connections - I have better draw engines, I think
Sorin, Solemn Visitor - Seems good and fits my theme of lifegain with a pseudo-anthem that gives lifelink, makes tokens, and has an emblem that forces opponents to sacrifice things
Nihil Spellbomb - Quick graveyard hate that draws a card could be useful
Magus of the Will - Because I can't justify buying Yawgmoth's Will right now
Sorin, Grim Nemesis - Seems like a great card, but I don't have the Sensei's Divining Top and such to make his +1 really useful. But either way it's card draw? I don't know.
Spectral Procession - With all the reanimation this deck can do, I don't know if it's necessary. Lingering Souls is better anyway.
Liliana Vess - Nice utilities! Her -8 is pretty cool. But I already have a Liliana in this deck so I dunno if I want to risk pairing them up.
Mark of Asylum - Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant's able to be reanimated, and the enchantment covers more ground.
Angelic Accord - Seems like a useful card since I'll be gaining a lot of life, but let's be real, it's because I didn't spring for Luminarch Ascension yet
How does it look so far?
Also on my wish list of sorts that aren't listed at all: Sheoldred, Kokusho, Yosei, Weathered Wayfarer, Rune-Scarred Demon, Vish Kal, Karmic Guide, Reveillark, Teysa, Orzhov Scion
I haven't totally finished my deck yet, but I had a question. Since I'm focusing on lifegain/draining for this deck, one of the cards I planned for my 99 was Serra Avatar. It seems like it has good potential, but I want to be sure before I try it: Say I have 100 life and I sacrifice the Avatar to Ayli's first skill. Would I gain 100 life from that as it's toughness would be 100, tied to my life total, or would it be zero as it's a * amount? Because if it works like I hope it does, it'd have a Beacon of Immortality effect that pairs beautifully with Sanguine Bond or Vizkopa Guildmage. A shame you can't really do any recursion shenanigans with it, though.
Is that how it works, or am I just crazy?
I wouldn't have seen it because I've been MIA from competitive Magic since like October. Just kinda lost the spark for it, I guess.
But I'm glad to see opinions on both sides of the matter. It'd definitely take some investment into the manabase for sure. Maybe running Mystic Gate and Adarkar Wastes as the duals would work well, since they also provide colorless for Displacer/TKS to work with?