You gotta love people that can't even hold their own in an argument.
So everyone knows, I just got a PM from The Towel saying:
Hey retard..
Finkel is terrible compared to Jace. My own Damnations kill it. Maybe you'd understand if you were in my league.
Hmm, interesting.
To begin with, Jace is terrible. I've made an argument against him in Rumor Mill, but I'll do it again if I have to.
At best, he is a SB card v control. Why? Because against aggro he eats some burn / 2-4 points of attack (bad Reviving Dose / Healing Salve) and dies. Also, Finkel IS better because you can have multiples. This may mean nothing to you, but the option to draw 2 or even 3 cards per turn is AMAZING.
Lastly, I'm really not in your league. When YOUR rating gets anywhere near mine, then we can talk. Until then, keep scrubbing in your FNMs
First of all, I never PM'ed you. Second, I am better than you. Notice how I don't mention about other people scrubbing at FNMs. This is because FNM is for fun. And if I actually WAS scrubbing out of FNM, my rating wouldn't be so high. Now that that's outta the way..
In a board control deck such as mine, Jace is amazing. Aggro can't attack her. She is a Phyrexian Arena. Finkel is terrible because it dies to my own Damnation. Time spiral block was a MUCH different story.
@the other guy: Cryptic command is bad right now. Far too clunky. My sideboard destroys control. I'm afraid I can't unveil it because people from Wisconsin are watching. You'll just have to see it when I Top 8 states.
Just a quick question. Why do you want to get the haakon/invesion combo in the late game? I mean, you as an experienced top8ed player must know that when you have the mana to play liliana, the tutor for haakon, the discard him and then play the combo....you must have the match vs aggro pretty much controled (or you are dead). and obv the combo is much more reliable vs aggro.
so once again why do you want to get the combo until very late on the game? don´t you prefer to play a tombstalker, trisk, dread or even platinum angel (lol) ???
I have nothing against Tombstalker, really, I would be playing it if Haakon + Nameless Inversion didn't exist. I can't play Trisk because I'm not playing Relic. There's a good reason why I'm running Mind Stone instead. Relic makes the deck an entire turn slower, as turn 3 Damnation or Careful Consideration is important. Especially when on the draw against aggro and without a Pyroclasm, you need to get into the game. I haven't thought about Platz, it might be interesting.
The reason I want it late game is for consistency, and so I have more room in the deck. By the time Haakon comes around, it is practically a given that a Nameless Inversion is in the graveyard. And if something really twisted happens and I don't get an Inversion yet, he is still a reoccuring 3/3 for 3 mana, probably trading on the way. See, every combo piece is good on it's own. I don't think I even have to make a case for Liliana, she's so good.
True, if you think about it, Haakon may be overkill against aggro. In my opinion (and testing), it's great against control too if they can't deal with it. In the control mirror, whoever has Haakon will win because your opponent won't be able to acutally win the game (also a 3/3 over and over, who's black too, it may cause some problems). It's much better than Trisk reccursion because you get to not skip you're draw, it actually IS a Wrath of God (Haakon + Inversion), and you don't have to worry about you're Academy Ruins dieing/Legend ruled, etc.
yeah because T8ing those 40-people PTQs is VERY hard in the US (:rofl:) almost as much as having a Constructed rating of 1850 or so (:rofl:).
Those points won't prove you're right because everyone can lucksack and T8 a PTQ and hit the 1800 mark in constructed with that...Yeh, so you only need 3 out of 4 cards, 2 of which 1 ofs to make the Haakon + Inversion synergy work.
Awesome consistency...Dread is indeed good but far from one of the best cards in the format (those are always board sweepers, so Damnation, Void and even Molten Disaster).Once again, rating proves NOTHING.This sentence describes you wonderfully, good self-analysis.
Now, on topic, I think the Haakon-Inversion is a cute trick but without a PROPER discard engine (Zombie Infestation, Wild Mongrel, Aquamoeba, nothing currently Standard legal still fits the role, IMO) it can't be reliable enough.
You can't hope to hit 5 mana, draw into an untutorable 1of then tutor for Haakon, then discard Haakon.
And that's the only way you can pull it off: hope.
If, by any chance, he gets an Oblivion Ring/Crib Swap/Delay/Faerie Trickery you just wasted 4 card slots just for him...
It's something that you need to pull off CONSISTENTLY to be worthy of inclusion, not something that MIGHT happen once you're winning the game because you'd much rather do some cute tricks instead than doing something to actually kill your opponent like, dunno, tutor for Hellkite/Triskelavus/Tombstalker and win in a few turns instead than doing some fancy tricks with Haakon and Nameless Inversion?
That's a very potent combo but if you want to use it you have to do so reliably and fast, not at the speed of "maybe, once I'm winning the game and in a position where I can waste a couple of draws and turns to find 2 of the pieces I need for the combo, then, and only then, I will pull the combo off and humiliate my opponent by killing all of his dudes over and over again"...
Pyroclasms MD are also dead as deaderson against non mono-Kithkin aggro.
If someone will play a mono-kithkin build I'd like to know his MU should he T8 because there is NO RESON THAT MAKES SENSE to not play cards like Saffi, Calciderm, Serra Avenger, Call of the Herd, Trill of the Hunt and the like, all cards that LAUGH HARD in the face of your 4 MD Pyroclasm.
I'd really like to know the lists of those that test with you, because there are like 3 viable Kithkins (Stalwart, Gaddock Teeg and Burrenton Forge-Tender), not even close to a number that's good to base a WHOLE deck on.
Also aggro decks like RDW and Greater Goyf with their Mogg War-Marshal, Keldon Marauders and Tarmogoyf won't care much about them either.
Not to mention if they start running Gaea's Anthem, in which case you just wasted 4 slots, grats!
There's so many things wrong with this post. I'll TRY to respond with some niceness.
PTQ's in the USA often have 200-250+ people. Seriously, I'm not BSing you. Either ask an American or look it up if you don't believe me. Also, the median player skill level is eons higher than in Italy. It's not "easy" at all to top 8 PTQs, althought it probably is in Italy, THAT's the place with 40 man PTQs.
Rating means EVERYTHING. If you have a low rating, it means you can't beat good players/and you haven't accomplished anything.
On topic:
"I can't hope to hit 5 mana...???" Can you explain this, or do you literally think I cannot hit 5 mana? Anyways, I don't get the combo until very late in the game (on purpose, when I have infinite mana). It's not like I'm trying to set it up since turn 1 or anything. It's not like I'm not already running the best win condition standard has seen in a long time (Dread).
LOL @ Gaea's Anthem. People at states love cute/gimmicky decks. Even if Serra Avenger/Calciderm/Call of the herd(<- currently unplayable) deck exists, people will still play goblins or Kithkins. Overestimating the metagame is something I used to do myself, but you must realize that not everyone is smart.
....Your kidding right. Tendrils is not the card that wins you the game vs aggro. You do not "NEED" tendrils to have a functioning U/B control deck that has no problems with aggro. And, I've played U/B since Dralnu debuted last year after Worlds.
EDIT:
I can see several out of place things here, mainly the inclusion of 4 Pyroclasm, the use of Jace and to a father extent Liliana, and wtf is Dread doing here. Pyroclasm is utter crap, with all the removal your running, you'll end up using it as a way to simply kill a 2/2, and Pyroclasm and Damnation both kill your Shriekmaw etc. Jace is utterly useless, just play Finkel if you feel the need to draw cards, I'm going to ignore the mill ability. Liliana makes absolutely no sense here, you pay 5 mana to make your opponent discard some cards, or you can tutor for some stuff, or zombify all creatures to play on your side, win-more condition at best, and that's pushing it. Next is Dread, a 6 mana creature that essentially makes your opponent either kill it, or wait to build up enough attack power to kill you in a single attack step, and no Teferi means no flash, so hf tapping out 6 for him, not even Relic here to use for efficiency. 1 copy of Haakon and 2 Nameless Inversions with no solid way to tutor for them, this will usualy lead to you drawing Haakon, pitching him, and then not finding an Inversion, making Haakon useless outside of a 3/3 body that can be re-played. Your deck is very un-synergistic and poorly designed, it honestly does look like something that was hastily thrown together based on the premise that owning aggro is achieved by dedicating 18 removal type spells to it,and the rest is just a bunch of 4-of's with 3-ofs and the like rounding out the rest of the deck.
First of all, Tendrils is REQUIRED to beat ANY competent aggro deck in the format. The fact that you deny this shows how inexperienced you are at Magic.
4 maindeck pyroclasm is insane with Lorywn in the format. I am seriously embarrased for you to say that this is bad in ANY WAY. Counterspells are AWFUL in the current format. You WILL scrub at states. Take it from a Top 8 PTQ competitor such as myself - you obviously only play at FNMs. Arguing otherwise will humiliate yourself even more. When your constructed rating reaches within 100 points of mine, maybe then we'll talk.
Jace is a Phyrexian Arena that doesn't lose me life every turn. Simply put. Finkel dies when I play Damnation. Liliana has a "search your library for Haakon and put it into the graveyard", by targeting myself with the discard abillity. Also, thanks for doing the thinking for me, kid: You wrote:
"it only makes your opponent discard some cards, or you can tutor for some stuff, or zombify all creatures to play on your side.."
As for Dread, he's easily the best incarnation, and one of the best cards in standard right now. Once again, instead of thinking, you scribbled down:
"or wait to build up enough attack power to kill you in a single attack step"
This is HELARIOUS. I was on the ground laughing. You can't actually find a reason why Dread is bad, now can you? He is infinite Desert. Aggro can't beat him. Sure attack with Tarmogoyf, now he's dead. And it's not like you can race Dread, either. Teferi is awful because it's a 5 mana 3/4 in the current format. Too much aggro. Maybe you'd understand if you were anywhere NEAR my constructed rating. Sorry, kid.
My deck was extremely well designed. Now why don't you do some testing instead of blindly saying that something is awful. You know what, junior? You're just like a lot of players on here who think they're always right; the truth is, they're almost NEVER right. You're NEVER right. You have a LOT to learn.
You don't need to come off as a jerk to get your point across. Your deck may be good, but your attitude isn't. Infraction issued.
-Iceman8352
Well I really love venser, shaper savant I just think he's a great card. I was just wondering what are all the combos to bounce and replay him for his effect, so far I know these
familiar's ruse Evacuation (though it is a bit high) Linessa, Zephyr Mage (also a bit high) Momentary Blink (love that combo of course)
and that's about all I know for now, other than maybe stuff like Surgespanner or Boomerangbut unless it's an instant and sorcery heavy deck you might as well just return one of their permanents
Rule of Law (Kinda)? You could time walk a couple times then with Blink.
It's not something you build a UB teachings control deck around, but I was already running Trisk as a win condition, since 7 mana is not a hard goal to achieve, especially with Relics. The Gnomes are blockers and they can be recycled with the Ruins I'm already playing. Not a cute parlor trick, not even an intended combo, not even a combo, just a synergy.
I agree with you on the Tendrils part, Teeg can hose it's capabilities, and Tendrils is only really effective with an Urborg in play.
I mean, if you enjoy never beating aggro, then why not cut Tendrils?
You NEED Tendrils. As soon as you finally play your first game with the deck, you will realize this.
Both main topics Drek is discussing here I've found to be mostly true in my testing versus agro. First and foremost, I feel that with most of the current builds, tendrils is losing its efficiency. To be honest, it can't (most of the time) killthe creatures that pose the biggest problems for me anyway. It can't kill teeg. It can't kill goyf quite often unless I draw into an Urborg. It still can't target troll. Against most red based decks they just sac to gargadon anyway so I just paid 4 mana for a deathmark. As a singleton (assuming you're still running teachings, which some of us arent), I can see it. I find it hard to justify more than that anymore though, really.
As to thoughtseize. I've had multiple people tell me that it's not MD worthy, that it's terrible against agro due to the 2 life loss, etc. But for all that, every time I cast it and can pluck a problem card away it ends up saving me more than 2 life. On the play I find I often can hit their only 1 drop, which slows them a full turn netting me more than 2 life in the long run. Hitting a griffin guide is always wonderful. More than once I've plucked a Teeg out of their hand when I'm sitting on double damnation but no other spot removal that could take him out in hand at the moment. And of course, it's far superior to that against control. I'd encourage everyone to test it and see how it works for them, rather than just assuming one way or the other. I was skeptical at first, but I'm a much bigger believer now. That said, they still sideboard out for my Deathmarks against agro, it's just not the dead card people are espousing it to be against agro.
Also, speaking of active turn 1 plays, I've become a much bigger fan of Ponder as well. Yes, I know it doesn't do anything for us as far as CA goes, but it digs us toward that turn 3-4 sweeper that we so vitally need in this metagame without sacrificing any plays. I also love drawing it lategame when it keeps the gas flowing for next to no mana investment.
Thoughts?
If you are running a good version of UB Control at all, you should have NO problem dealing with Gaddok Teeg Grizzly Bears. Not playing Tendrils just because of some random, weak, and overrated 2/2 that is easy to kill is just helarious. You MUST play Tendrils.
And lose all mirror matches... if 20-30% of the meta is teachings/martyr (which is what control will be... 20-30%) then you're basically giving up every 3rd match.
And Gaddock + Saffi or Gaddock + Glorius Anthem kills you... Goblins raced past your 4cc deck whilst Greater Gargadon is laughing at the fake phone # he gave your Tendrils...
Not enough design for the meta, shotgun approaches need fine-tuning.
Actually it will be around 90% aggro. His deck won't EVER lose to aggro. OR Grizzly Bears (Teeg).
[Barn]Wow that list is pretty good. Since you're an intern now, I think BDM should let you be on some podcasts. I'd be interested in what you have to say about stuffs....... [/Barn]
I think Thrill of the Hunt could end up being in the top 10 cards in standard.
You are obviously lieing. This deck is incapable of beating aggro. Mystical Teachings is cute, and I understand people like playing cute cards. However, since running the pickles lock in a heavy aggro metagame won't work, just take it out. And the lock too.
One of the basic elements of the deck you are trying to make, is to use 8 2-mana counterspells. The fact that you are using Finkel, Coalition Relic, Void, Damnation, and potentially Careful Consideration, make using Rune Snag look really goofy.
Why is Teferi even playable? Tombstalker costs BB when playing it, Wydwen has flash, and Finkel you want to play early. You can't make use of his abilities that make him good. All he is is a 5 mana 3/4 with flash. Not impressive.
There is NO reason to be playing Mystical Teachings. You litteraly should be playing more of the cards you would teach for. Meaning, cards that are good against aggro, because you will be playing against it FAR more than control.
You are trying to make it a board control deck (good descision) and a counterspell linear type deck (awful choice with a Lorywn standard). You have to just focus on one thing.
Even if this deck becomes good popular, you can't beat Eyes of the Wisent.
This isn't just directed at the individual who posted this deck, it's at everyone in general (for the most part) on this thread. Board control is the way to go in a Lorwyn standard. (without Teachings, it's too slow, there's no point.)
Oh, which would that be?
RDW? Greater Goyf? WW? Kithkin? GW Aggro? BR Goblins?
Because, hey...we beat those. Yeah. Turns out all that removal? It kills stuff.
Listen, if you can't beat aggro playing THAT much aggro-hate...well, let's just say that maybe it's not your deck that's the problem...
I GUARENTEE you can't beat aggro with these decks. (Teachings, Teferi, counters)
It's so fundamentally terrible. If someone would like me to clarify, I will.
First of all, I never PM'ed you. Second, I am better than you. Notice how I don't mention about other people scrubbing at FNMs. This is because FNM is for fun. And if I actually WAS scrubbing out of FNM, my rating wouldn't be so high. Now that that's outta the way..
In a board control deck such as mine, Jace is amazing. Aggro can't attack her. She is a Phyrexian Arena. Finkel is terrible because it dies to my own Damnation. Time spiral block was a MUCH different story.
@the other guy: Cryptic command is bad right now. Far too clunky. My sideboard destroys control. I'm afraid I can't unveil it because people from Wisconsin are watching. You'll just have to see it when I Top 8 states.
I have nothing against Tombstalker, really, I would be playing it if Haakon + Nameless Inversion didn't exist. I can't play Trisk because I'm not playing Relic. There's a good reason why I'm running Mind Stone instead. Relic makes the deck an entire turn slower, as turn 3 Damnation or Careful Consideration is important. Especially when on the draw against aggro and without a Pyroclasm, you need to get into the game. I haven't thought about Platz, it might be interesting.
The reason I want it late game is for consistency, and so I have more room in the deck. By the time Haakon comes around, it is practically a given that a Nameless Inversion is in the graveyard. And if something really twisted happens and I don't get an Inversion yet, he is still a reoccuring 3/3 for 3 mana, probably trading on the way. See, every combo piece is good on it's own. I don't think I even have to make a case for Liliana, she's so good.
True, if you think about it, Haakon may be overkill against aggro. In my opinion (and testing), it's great against control too if they can't deal with it. In the control mirror, whoever has Haakon will win because your opponent won't be able to acutally win the game (also a 3/3 over and over, who's black too, it may cause some problems). It's much better than Trisk reccursion because you get to not skip you're draw, it actually IS a Wrath of God (Haakon + Inversion), and you don't have to worry about you're Academy Ruins dieing/Legend ruled, etc.
EDIT: spelling, grammar, etc
There's so many things wrong with this post. I'll TRY to respond with some niceness.
PTQ's in the USA often have 200-250+ people. Seriously, I'm not BSing you. Either ask an American or look it up if you don't believe me. Also, the median player skill level is eons higher than in Italy. It's not "easy" at all to top 8 PTQs, althought it probably is in Italy, THAT's the place with 40 man PTQs.
Rating means EVERYTHING. If you have a low rating, it means you can't beat good players/and you haven't accomplished anything.
On topic:
"I can't hope to hit 5 mana...???" Can you explain this, or do you literally think I cannot hit 5 mana? Anyways, I don't get the combo until very late in the game (on purpose, when I have infinite mana). It's not like I'm trying to set it up since turn 1 or anything. It's not like I'm not already running the best win condition standard has seen in a long time (Dread).
LOL @ Gaea's Anthem. People at states love cute/gimmicky decks. Even if Serra Avenger/Calciderm/Call of the herd(<- currently unplayable) deck exists, people will still play goblins or Kithkins. Overestimating the metagame is something I used to do myself, but you must realize that not everyone is smart.
First of all, Tendrils is REQUIRED to beat ANY competent aggro deck in the format. The fact that you deny this shows how inexperienced you are at Magic.
4 maindeck pyroclasm is insane with Lorywn in the format. I am seriously embarrased for you to say that this is bad in ANY WAY. Counterspells are AWFUL in the current format. You WILL scrub at states. Take it from a Top 8 PTQ competitor such as myself - you obviously only play at FNMs. Arguing otherwise will humiliate yourself even more. When your constructed rating reaches within 100 points of mine, maybe then we'll talk.
Jace is a Phyrexian Arena that doesn't lose me life every turn. Simply put. Finkel dies when I play Damnation. Liliana has a "search your library for Haakon and put it into the graveyard", by targeting myself with the discard abillity. Also, thanks for doing the thinking for me, kid: You wrote:
"it only makes your opponent discard some cards, or you can tutor for some stuff, or zombify all creatures to play on your side.."
As for Dread, he's easily the best incarnation, and one of the best cards in standard right now. Once again, instead of thinking, you scribbled down:
"or wait to build up enough attack power to kill you in a single attack step"
This is HELARIOUS. I was on the ground laughing. You can't actually find a reason why Dread is bad, now can you? He is infinite Desert. Aggro can't beat him. Sure attack with Tarmogoyf, now he's dead. And it's not like you can race Dread, either. Teferi is awful because it's a 5 mana 3/4 in the current format. Too much aggro. Maybe you'd understand if you were anywhere NEAR my constructed rating. Sorry, kid.
My deck was extremely well designed. Now why don't you do some testing instead of blindly saying that something is awful. You know what, junior? You're just like a lot of players on here who think they're always right; the truth is, they're almost NEVER right. You're NEVER right. You have a LOT to learn.
You don't need to come off as a jerk to get your point across. Your deck may be good, but your attitude isn't. Infraction issued.
-Iceman8352
Rule of Law (Kinda)? You could time walk a couple times then with Blink.
EDIT: Here is my list
4 River of Tears
4 Tolaria West
4 Underground River
3 Graven Cairns
4 Island
1 Urza's Factory
1 Shivan Reef
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dread
1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourage
4 Skriekmaw
Other Spells
4 Prismatic Lens
3 Mind Stone
4 Careful Consideration
4 Damnation
3 Tendrils of Corruption
4 Pyroclasm
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Nameless Inversion
1 Liliana Vess
3 Jace Beleren
I challenge everyone to find ANYTHING wrong with it. And anyone who barns it gets a cookie.
I mean, if you enjoy never beating aggro, then why not cut Tendrils?
You NEED Tendrils. As soon as you finally play your first game with the deck, you will realize this.
If you are running a good version of UB Control at all, you should have NO problem dealing with
Gaddok TeegGrizzly Bears. Not playing Tendrils just because of some random, weak, and overrated 2/2 that is easy to kill is just helarious. You MUST play Tendrils.Actually it will be around 90% aggro. His deck won't EVER lose to aggro. OR Grizzly Bears (Teeg).
If you play counterspells, you WILL scrub.
[Barn]Wow that list is pretty good. Since you're an intern now, I think BDM should let you be on some podcasts. I'd be interested in what you have to say about stuffs....... [/Barn]
I think Thrill of the Hunt could end up being in the top 10 cards in standard.
I'm not sure what is worse, the fact that you're only running 23 lands, or that attempt at running the Pickles combo.
Wrong numbers in this deck;
2 Cancel?
2 Teferi?
3 Thoughtseize?
2 Dreadship Reef?
1 Swamp?
2 Urborg?
You are obviously lieing. This deck is incapable of beating aggro. Mystical Teachings is cute, and I understand people like playing cute cards. However, since running the pickles lock in a heavy aggro metagame won't work, just take it out. And the lock too.
One of the basic elements of the deck you are trying to make, is to use 8 2-mana counterspells. The fact that you are using Finkel, Coalition Relic, Void, Damnation, and potentially Careful Consideration, make using Rune Snag look really goofy.
Why is Teferi even playable? Tombstalker costs BB when playing it, Wydwen has flash, and Finkel you want to play early. You can't make use of his abilities that make him good. All he is is a 5 mana 3/4 with flash. Not impressive.
There is NO reason to be playing Mystical Teachings. You litteraly should be playing more of the cards you would teach for. Meaning, cards that are good against aggro, because you will be playing against it FAR more than control.
You are trying to make it a board control deck (good descision) and a counterspell linear type deck (awful choice with a Lorywn standard). You have to just focus on one thing.
Even if this deck becomes
goodpopular, you can't beat Eyes of the Wisent.This isn't just directed at the individual who posted this deck, it's at everyone in general (for the most part) on this thread. Board control is the way to go in a Lorwyn standard. (without Teachings, it's too slow, there's no point.)
I GUARENTEE you can't beat aggro with these decks. (Teachings, Teferi, counters)
It's so fundamentally terrible. If someone would like me to clarify, I will.
And Shriekmaw is a 1 for 1 in a deck with counters and Mystic Teachings anyways.