In a legal Fatal Push scenario, what do you guys think of this list? Big disclaimer, I know that the manabase would likely be better off with more fetch lands and an extra Watery Grave. I'm unsure about the 2/2 split between Fatal Push and Terminate. I've been testing the two Cliques and I really like seeing them regularly. Also, I really, really, really hate Tron. It often feels like a sideboard war, counter spells only go as far as Ulamogs and World Breakers on the stack, and a lot of things must line up to secure a win. Are there any solid solutions for this matchup?
WB E&T wouldn't completely replace Paths as they provide exiled food for Stranglers. That being said, Fatal Push seems solid as MD paths 5-6, or sideboard material vs aggro decks. Regular WB D&T can more easily switch the ratios of paths and pushes to something like 2-4.
[EDIT] If this card becomes ubiquitous in Midrange and grindy decks, replacing general removal such as Terminate, Smashy Smashers will be in a much better position in these matchups.
What are you thoughts on Jace, Vryn's Prodigy for Overturf-style builds? Seems reasonable with counterspell backup and has nice synergies with Thought Scour, filling the grave for cheap Delve Fatties. It probably sucks against BGx decks since Abrupt Decay is a card, but how about other matchups?
I've been testing this guy on XMage and I really can't complain. My question is if other cards, such as Vendilion Clique are just better choices in general.
@agua_benta following the Skred Red gameplan, it is advisable that Eternal Scourges are played along Relic of Progenitus or some other form of exiling them in case they naturally hit the GY due to combat damage. Far-fetched thought experiment, but image how interesting it would be to Surgical Extraction the first Scourge to hit the GY in order to tutor the other 3 and set them up to be cast from exile.
@on Surgical Extraction vs. Dredge, from a Grixis perspective, the card is immensely better in Snapcaster Mage decks, as you can cast and flashback it by your turn 2, shutting down their best win cons, namely Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam. They'll still cause a lot of trouble with Life from the Loams into flashback Conflagrates, and if you don't present a decent clock you will eventually be met with several giant Golgari Grave-Trolls. Rest in Peace is definitely the better card for decks with access to white mana.
I've been seeing lists every now and then experimenting with Prized Amalgam. Is it worth the slot main deck? Since I'm running a LEDless build for budget reasons, is it worth making room for it MD as my gameplan is usually slower? Is @Punksterbass' x3 Ichorid x3 Amalgam split correct?
This is my decklist for BW Eldrazi & Taxes. I find the manabase much smoother with the recently added fastlands, the one-of Orzhov Pontiff has been versatile enough, and the one-of Sorin is huge if you have any board state at all. I find the lifegain very relevant vs aggro decks and the +1/+0 pump can be relevant to clock your opponents even a turn faster. The sideboard packs additional disruption against combo/non-interactive/creature-light decks, and a pro-color package of 2 Mirran Crusaders + 2 Auriok Champions. Smashers aside, the rest of the choices are pretty much standard.
Against Jund, I feel like I want to remove all my Vials and Scullers to maximize relevant top decks and to avoid an overgrown Goyf. I come to realize that a Sculler in the battlefield is nice disruption, but in the graveyard is a nightmare, as it instantly gives enemy Goys +2/+2. This is the sort of setback that can easily put Jund in the driver seat. Hence, my sideboard plan is to get these cards out and get all my creatures + rest in peaces in (granted, I also need to board in a singleton Zealous Persecution just to add to 60, but oh well). Figuring out your play style against grindy decks is not easy and this plan is not the ultimate answer.
Quick update based on my testings on XMage. I've been pretty happy with this take on the manabase for my build. Note that I'm running 3 Reality Smashers in my 75, hence the preference for Godless Shrines over Concealed Courtyards. It still seems worth it to run a pair of those fastlands to cut the singleton Fetid Heath or the excessive 3rd Shambling Vent and minimize hands with multiple shock lands by cutting Godless Shrines to 3 (we run no fetches, we can do better than take 4 damage to play a vial + 2 drop).
Hey guys! I know this list is very unconventional for Grxis delver, but I'd like to share it.
I have gone 4-0 for the past 3 weeks at my LGS FNM's and have had succes against many modern decks ( valakut.dredge.infect.death and taxes. Abzan. Control) .
The deck works by playing hand hate early game then following up with attrition and creature removal. You also run many redundant spells to see your opponents hand constantly.
The main idea is to delay early game and play lots of instants/ sorceress as well as loose life. Then when you and your opponent are both at low or no cards. U follow up with a bedlam reveler. Discard usually 1 or 0 cards then draw 3.
We are a suicide deck so deaths shadow can easily close up games but the life loss mechanic is optional . Against burn we choose to pay for our probes and fetches as to not take to much damage to fast . Anyway lemme know what you think!
as @MarcWizard points out, this strategy is not really where Grixis Delver is at right now. With that being said, I would like to comment on a single detail on your list. Our Grixis teachings point that Countersquall is a better card in that Negate slot in your sideboard. Not sure how successfully would your 17 lander support it, but it's worth a shot.
And yet we see another take on the manabase! Did you guys watch the streaming? Was the 2+1 split of Spirebluff Canals and Darkslick Shores relevant? I'd love to hear Jones' reasoning!
I'll re-do a question regarding Craig Wescoe's take on BW Eldrazi & Taxes since it seems more on-topic now. Is the 3 basic lands (2 plains + 1 swamp) take on the deck more susceptible to Blood Moon effects than the 4 basic lands version of the manabase (3+1) or is the cut negligible?
I also usually play around Blood Moon by discarding it before they have a chance to play it, Thalia and extra discard in the form of sideboarded Thoughtseize help with this issue in my experience. Another more extreme measure would be some combination of vialed-in Flickerwisp followed by a then-enabled Wasteland Strangler for the process effect.
Thoughtseize is absolutely brutal against creature light decks/combo decks. I love how my main deck and sideboard numbers are set up for easy swaps. As I mentioned before, x4 Wasteland Stranglers are often switched for x3 Seizes + x1 Smasher, but against Melira combo (likely applies to similar matchups like Kiki-chord) I switch my x3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben for x3 Seizes, as the non-creature taxing is almost useless against their green-heavy gameplan. I believe leaning hard on discard effects (x4 Scullers, x4 TKS and x3 Seizes) is a must when most people don't even bother bringing Leyline of Sanctity in their sideboards. It is definitely a meta call, but absolutely worth it if you're not punished by it at all.
I'll try to swap 1 Strangler for the Pontiff MD, thank you for your comment! Do you often end up using both of his ETB modes?
I've been running x4 Wasteland Stranglers main deck, which often feels a little bit too much. I understand that the consensus is running x3 main deck and x1 on the board, but 4 copies is very helpful for my sideboard tech due to my strategy of boarding in x3 Thoughtseizes and 1 extra Reality Smasher against creature light decks. I was wondering about taking advantage of our colors and substituting a single Strangler for an Orzhov Pontiff. His ETB trigger is reasonable in an aggro meta and can also be abused for +1/+1 triggers to pump my team for the win. Did anyone test him in an E&T shell? How did he perform?
What do you guys think of Craig's list? It feels like with the lower curve he gets to use ghost quarter more often, at the cost of not playing my favorite Smashy Smashers. It is interesting that he opted for a full playset of Concealed Courtyard considering he recently wrote a guide advocating against the fastland (link here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13600).
Also, how's Blessed Alliance working on your BW sideboards? Is it worth the slot despite being yet another non-creature spell?
[Edit] Another interesting change is the lower count of basics (2 plains + 1 swamp). Is that significant against blood moon effects?
Thanks for the comments, guys! So I guess it's worth taking notes on your metagame to decide if it is safe to cut the mountain for an additional fastland, right? Red flags would be only ghost quarters or should I also be afraid of Fulminator Mages hiding in Jund's sideboard? Regardless of this option, do you guys recommend the 2nd Grave over the additional Vents? Is one Vents and one Crypt enough fetchable red sources?
In a legal Fatal Push scenario, what do you guys think of this list? Big disclaimer, I know that the manabase would likely be better off with more fetch lands and an extra Watery Grave. I'm unsure about the 2/2 split between Fatal Push and Terminate. I've been testing the two Cliques and I really like seeing them regularly. Also, I really, really, really hate Tron. It often feels like a sideboard war, counter spells only go as far as Ulamogs and World Breakers on the stack, and a lot of things must line up to secure a win. Are there any solid solutions for this matchup?
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Remand
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries (5)
4 Serum Visions
1 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
2 Dispel
2 Magma Spray
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Collective Brutality
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Surgical Extraction
I appreciate your comments and suggestions.
WB E&T wouldn't completely replace Paths as they provide exiled food for Stranglers. That being said, Fatal Push seems solid as MD paths 5-6, or sideboard material vs aggro decks. Regular WB D&T can more easily switch the ratios of paths and pushes to something like 2-4.
[EDIT] If this card becomes ubiquitous in Midrange and grindy decks, replacing general removal such as Terminate, Smashy Smashers will be in a much better position in these matchups.
What are you thoughts on Jace, Vryn's Prodigy for Overturf-style builds? Seems reasonable with counterspell backup and has nice synergies with Thought Scour, filling the grave for cheap Delve Fatties. It probably sucks against BGx decks since Abrupt Decay is a card, but how about other matchups?
I've been testing this guy on XMage and I really can't complain. My question is if other cards, such as Vendilion Clique are just better choices in general.
I've been seeing lists every now and then experimenting with Prized Amalgam. Is it worth the slot main deck? Since I'm running a LEDless build for budget reasons, is it worth making room for it MD as my gameplan is usually slower? Is @Punksterbass' x3 Ichorid x3 Amalgam split correct?
Many thanks for your comments!
This is my decklist for BW Eldrazi & Taxes. I find the manabase much smoother with the recently added fastlands, the one-of Orzhov Pontiff has been versatile enough, and the one-of Sorin is huge if you have any board state at all. I find the lifegain very relevant vs aggro decks and the +1/+0 pump can be relevant to clock your opponents even a turn faster. The sideboard packs additional disruption against combo/non-interactive/creature-light decks, and a pro-color package of 2 Mirran Crusaders + 2 Auriok Champions. Smashers aside, the rest of the choices are pretty much standard.
Against Jund, I feel like I want to remove all my Vials and Scullers to maximize relevant top decks and to avoid an overgrown Goyf. I come to realize that a Sculler in the battlefield is nice disruption, but in the graveyard is a nightmare, as it instantly gives enemy Goys +2/+2. This is the sort of setback that can easily put Jund in the driver seat. Hence, my sideboard plan is to get these cards out and get all my creatures + rest in peaces in (granted, I also need to board in a singleton Zealous Persecution just to add to 60, but oh well). Figuring out your play style against grindy decks is not easy and this plan is not the ultimate answer.
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Godless Shrine
2 Concealed Courtyard
2 Shambling Vent
3 Plains
1 Swamp
Spells (9)
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Wasteland Strangler
1 Orzhov Pontiff
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reality Smasher
3 Thoughtseize
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Auriok Champion
2 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Stony Silence
Quick update based on my testings on XMage. I've been pretty happy with this take on the manabase for my build. Note that I'm running 3 Reality Smashers in my 75, hence the preference for Godless Shrines over Concealed Courtyards. It still seems worth it to run a pair of those fastlands to cut the singleton Fetid Heath or the excessive 3rd Shambling Vent and minimize hands with multiple shock lands by cutting Godless Shrines to 3 (we run no fetches, we can do better than take 4 damage to play a vial + 2 drop).
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
2 Concealed Courtyard
3 Plains
1 Swamp
Hey @dylanyad, how is it going?
as @MarcWizard points out, this strategy is not really where Grixis Delver is at right now. With that being said, I would like to comment on a single detail on your list. Our Grixis teachings point that Countersquall is a better card in that Negate slot in your sideboard. Not sure how successfully would your 17 lander support it, but it's worth a shot.
And yet we see another take on the manabase! Did you guys watch the streaming? Was the 2+1 split of Spirebluff Canals and Darkslick Shores relevant? I'd love to hear Jones' reasoning!
I'll re-do a question regarding Craig Wescoe's take on BW Eldrazi & Taxes since it seems more on-topic now. Is the 3 basic lands (2 plains + 1 swamp) take on the deck more susceptible to Blood Moon effects than the 4 basic lands version of the manabase (3+1) or is the cut negligible?
I also usually play around Blood Moon by discarding it before they have a chance to play it, Thalia and extra discard in the form of sideboarded Thoughtseize help with this issue in my experience. Another more extreme measure would be some combination of vialed-in Flickerwisp followed by a then-enabled Wasteland Strangler for the process effect.
Thoughtseize is absolutely brutal against creature light decks/combo decks. I love how my main deck and sideboard numbers are set up for easy swaps. As I mentioned before, x4 Wasteland Stranglers are often switched for x3 Seizes + x1 Smasher, but against Melira combo (likely applies to similar matchups like Kiki-chord) I switch my x3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben for x3 Seizes, as the non-creature taxing is almost useless against their green-heavy gameplan. I believe leaning hard on discard effects (x4 Scullers, x4 TKS and x3 Seizes) is a must when most people don't even bother bringing Leyline of Sanctity in their sideboards. It is definitely a meta call, but absolutely worth it if you're not punished by it at all.
I'll try to swap 1 Strangler for the Pontiff MD, thank you for your comment! Do you often end up using both of his ETB modes?
I've been running x4 Wasteland Stranglers main deck, which often feels a little bit too much. I understand that the consensus is running x3 main deck and x1 on the board, but 4 copies is very helpful for my sideboard tech due to my strategy of boarding in x3 Thoughtseizes and 1 extra Reality Smasher against creature light decks. I was wondering about taking advantage of our colors and substituting a single Strangler for an Orzhov Pontiff. His ETB trigger is reasonable in an aggro meta and can also be abused for +1/+1 triggers to pump my team for the win. Did anyone test him in an E&T shell? How did he perform?
Thanks for your comments!
Also, how's Blessed Alliance working on your BW sideboards? Is it worth the slot despite being yet another non-creature spell?
[Edit] Another interesting change is the lower count of basics (2 plains + 1 swamp). Is that significant against blood moon effects?
Thanks for the comments, guys! So I guess it's worth taking notes on your metagame to decide if it is safe to cut the mountain for an additional fastland, right? Red flags would be only ghost quarters or should I also be afraid of Fulminator Mages hiding in Jund's sideboard? Regardless of this option, do you guys recommend the 2nd Grave over the additional Vents? Is one Vents and one Crypt enough fetchable red sources?