I think spire of industry is just better in most situations over gemstone mine. The chance where you get double mana off of a sac mine replay mine and its relevant seems very small. I really think ray of revelation is bad since its a card we have to discard ourselves if there are no enchantments. At least with ancient grudge we get the feel bad of always hitting our most redundant piece. I know the flashback is nice but i think seal of primordium is good now. Especially with eldrazi tron being tier 1 and having challice.
Also an article about tier 1 decks has a lot of midrangey style of decks on it. I think lantern is actually in a pretty good place right now. With so much midrange ad nauseam might be rising in popularity also. This is even better for us. Padeem seems like it does work against tron which is 10% of the meta.
do we really care about having cards stuck in our hands anytime we would bring in either of these? Really the only time we care about it is against hyper aggro, and we dont bring these in against those decks. Ive always been dismissive of the card but it really does help with a lot of rough matchups. I think it really helps against jund and tron.
do we really care about having cards stuck in our hands anytime we would bring in either of these? Really the only time we care about it is against hyper aggro, and we dont bring these in against those decks. Ive always been dismissive of the card but it really does help with a lot of rough matchups. I think it really helps against jund and tron.
With concerns to it being more powerful than the BG version, I think once we get the correct numbers down i think Whir Lantern could be more consistent, and therefore, better overall. Again, that's my probably very biased opinion
I think if we can get it more consistent it certainly could be. One of the reasons why the current deck is so good is because it is so consistent and you know what to expect. I think that we have a better chance of getting UUU since we also have the lantern soft lock and ability to throw a mox opal on top with academy ruins.
I feel like the whir of invention decks are looking more like tezzeret decks and less like lantern. What do you all think. I think we dont play enough lands to justify playing whir.
How so? In my version I run the ThopterSword combo in because I try to shoe horn that combo into every Lantern deck when I get the chance And I'm honestly only running 1 of each since it gives me a wincon I can tutor for with Whir if I already have all my lock pieces. And my list doesn't even have Tezzeret.
I feel like that's a bit of an unfair criticism. The two lists really have not much at all in common.
For the sake of argument I'll throw a bit of math in here as well. I can understand your point of there not being enough lands in the deck. This is why I have been advocating for making sure if you want to use Whir, you MUST make sure you have Ancient Stirrings in your list. Using hypergeometric math, without Stirrings, you have a 67% chance of seeing your 3rd land for turn 3. Forget having UUU you may not even have your third mana. However with Ancient Stirrings letting you see an extra 5 cards by your third turn then that goes up to there being a 94% chance you'll have 3 lands on turn 3. Again, this doesn't account for having the UUU.
With concerns to having UUU, the mana base I have constructed gives you a 60% chance of having UUU on turn 3. With 3 Whir of Invention in your deck, you have about a 40% chance of seeing the card by Turn 3. So, you are 20% more likely to have the mana for Whir on turn 3 than you are to actually have Whir on turn 3. I've done my math for this deck, trust me.
Sorry I was mainly just looking at lands. The deck with 2 bridges bridges and tezzeret was really looking like tezz. I was just using Frank lepores article on how many sources to cast cryptic. Do you think this list is more powerful than GB that we have now. Where do you think this version helps out? I really wanted to make this version work too. Whir is such a strong card.
I feel like the whir of invention decks are looking more like tezzeret decks and less like lantern. What do you all think. I think we dont play enough lands to justify playing whir.
hello, long time didnt write it
but since the discussion about whir of invention came, i decided to put my thoughts about it here:
so the list im currently running is:
What does this deck do when its behind. A lot of the time the deck didnt play infernal tutor because it was a good top deck, but it wasnt a good card when you were being pressured and still had cards in hand. Getting UUU is really hard when you play so few blue sources and one way that was made easier is that you could stirrings for the lands to cast whir later.
The UUU makes me hesitant to include many non-blue lands, no matter how strong they are. Bonus of not drawing doubles on your legendary lands! Island might be wrong even still since its basically colourless for the rest of the spells (Mainly Abrupt Decay)
Overall, the biggest issue I see with this is that we lose some consistency casting early coloured spells, and that we're back on a painland. We're also down on the legendary lands, which are so good in this deck we risk drawing doubles. What we gain is the flexibility of Whir over Bridge, when we already have (or perhaps don't even need) Bridge, Whir gets to be whatever is going to best help us lock out the game.
My biggest concern - how often and how fast do we have 3 artifacts down, as well as 3 mana sources. That's a lot of physical cards we need deployed in order to get a bridge out. If it comes up even occasionally that we can't save ourselves from lethal because Whir is too expensive I'm not sure the changes are worth it.
That's what I have to say on the matter! Let me know how you all feel!
From my testing with the deck we just dont have enough blue sources to reliably cast it on turn 3 or 4. The number of blue sources is 23 or 22 if you want to be casting a UUU spell on turn 3 or 4. Its a really powerful card and if it was 1UU I think it could work. If you do want to keep trying it, id reccoment collective brutality as a way to get the whirs out of your hand if you need, and mishra's bauble as another way to get 3 artifacts down with 3 mana up on turn 3.
I have heard that a lot of pros have been trying battle at the bridge as a one of. I'm not a fan of most sorcery speed removal spells. I think collective brutality is more versatile, even though it cant kill fatties and isnt massive lifegain, its never a dead card. What do you guys think.
I have always been against just posting up a crazy new list and calling it the new top deck, so I won't. I was excited about whir of invention so This is the list I have been testing today, just goldfishing for 2 hours. I originally had 4 collective brutality because I assumed that the whirs are going to get stuck in the hand, but spire of industry is a bit nutty for 3 color decks and I had turn 3 or 4 UUU in plenty of games. I decided to cut 2 brutality and throw in 2 baubles and it enhanced it a lot. You rarely are able to play whir on turn 3 since unless you get an active opal you have to use a mana to play an artifact to get 3 on turn 3. Turn 4 whir at instant speed feels so strong. I played 19 games and 8 had a whir in the opener and all but 1 game I was able to cast it on turn 4.
I haven't even thought about a sideboard since there isn't much point if its a bad deck lol, but it could probably cast witchbane orb easier since you can whir for a ton on turn 4.
This isn't the new deck, but whir is strong and I think it deserves some testing. This is the first time in my magic career I've ever actually branched off and drastically changed a deck so any thoughts and considerations would be greatly appreciated.
New bans are super lulzy. I'm not sure it'll matter too much for us. It hurt Dredge which was a good matchup, and some of the degenerate aggro that I also think we were fine against. I do prefer a slower metagame though, so it should be more fun overall.
I think its good. This version with baubles and ghost quarters seems to have the most game against tron and valakut decks which are probably going to be more common since the hyper aggro decks all took a hit.
Actually, it wouldn't be okay to stick with Pithing Needle at all. The Needle explicitly states that mana abilities of the affected permanent can still be activated. This is a big problem for us, since Tron can just stockpile eggs and fire them off all at once to defeat our lock, regardless of how many Needles we have. Chromatic Sphere is of particular trouble because, unlike Star, its draw is part of the resolution of a mana ability, which both cannot be shut off by Needle and can't be responded to, which means that if Tron sees Ulamog, the Ceaceless Hunger on top of their deck, has Sphere in play, and wants to draw it, all they have to do is pop Sphere and there's nothing we can do about it.
However, Phyrexian Revoker doesn't have the same mana ability exception that Needle does. It can shut off Birds of Paradise, for example, just like how Stony Silence can shut off Mox Opal. This means that you can name Sphere with Revoker and it will actually shut off Sphere. This allows us to shut off their incessant cantripping and gives Lantern a fighting chance in an otherwise miserable matchup.
About it not coming down on turn 1, Tron doesn't ever have their big play on the field until their third turn anyway.
It's also nice to have when facing a Surgical Extraction deck, like the mirror. The mirror basically comes down to who has the most needles, and i've had mine Extracted before. It wasn't fun. Adding a bit of diversity helps insure against situations like that.
Also, you can beat your opponents to death with a 2/1. Jeskai/Esper Control mages know how awesome that feels.
i think the much more efficient way of dealing with chromatic sphere is to try and iok them out of the hand or let them draw the fatty and thoughtseize afterwards. they only have 4 chromatic spheres and we can resp to the chromatic star. i have noticed that the tron match up has improved greatly now that i am running 3 ghost quarters. i mean your talking about replacing a perfectly good card in pithing needle for a worse card in phyrexian revoker all because of a card that is only played in one deck.
I totally agree. Also, playing revoker for the tron matchup, but then also giving them the ability to play ugin and kill revoker doesnt seem strong. also, Ghost quarter surgical is so much more consistent and I think the deck went from never being able to beat the valakut matchup to being in favor.
Merry Christmas everyone! We talked a while back about pimping the deck, so i though i'd share my current progress for the holidays. Here you go! http://imgur.com/r0p17p3 http://imgur.com/1kuVg1S
That foil infernal tutor is sexy, I just picked up two more foil bridges. So much respect. Ive been on the quest for over a year after I saw a completely foiled scapeshift deck.
The head judge was incorrect in this instance. An object can only exist in one zone at a time so if they have put it onto the battlefield it is no longer the top card of the library. Even though there is no priority given between finding the land and shuffling the deck the top card of the deck should still be revealed.[/quote]
Thats so awesome. I always assumed it was legal before, it does matter in fringe instances. I one time saw an ancient grudge as the next card and I wasnt expecting it, the next game i brought in cages.
after testing the kanister list i think it's probably the best. cranes are good but there are a lot of advantages of mishra's being free and an artifact. i made 2 minor changes to his list though. i took out one llanowar waste for 1 forest, i also shaved one surgical in the board for a third leyline.
made changes to the list in my signature. i also made one last switch from seal of primordium to quiet disrepair, and i took out the singleton infernal tutor for a third abrupt decay main.
The first changes were what i was thinking too when i first saw the list. It seems really solid.
This may have been answered a long time ago,but When zac was in the finals of gp OKC when his opponent cracks scalding tarn and takes the island off the top he says that he has to show him the next card and then shuffles. I was in the finals of a pptq and my opponent did the same thing and i told him to show me the next card, my opponent said that isnt a rule, the judge ruled in my favor, but the head judge ruled in my opponents favor. Who is right? and would something like this also apply for ghost quarter and taking the top card?
Also an article about tier 1 decks has a lot of midrangey style of decks on it. I think lantern is actually in a pretty good place right now. With so much midrange ad nauseam might be rising in popularity also. This is even better for us. Padeem seems like it does work against tron which is 10% of the meta.
https://www.mainphasemtg.net/gamingcontentblog/2017/3/15/tier-list-analysis-week-of-13th-of-march-2017-by-avi-makhli
^^ heres the link. Its supposed to keep updating bi-weekly.
I think if we can get it more consistent it certainly could be. One of the reasons why the current deck is so good is because it is so consistent and you know what to expect. I think that we have a better chance of getting UUU since we also have the lantern soft lock and ability to throw a mox opal on top with academy ruins.
Sorry I was mainly just looking at lands. The deck with 2 bridges bridges and tezzeret was really looking like tezz. I was just using Frank lepores article on how many sources to cast cryptic. Do you think this list is more powerful than GB that we have now. Where do you think this version helps out? I really wanted to make this version work too. Whir is such a strong card.
What does this deck do when its behind. A lot of the time the deck didnt play infernal tutor because it was a good top deck, but it wasnt a good card when you were being pressured and still had cards in hand. Getting UUU is really hard when you play so few blue sources and one way that was made easier is that you could stirrings for the lands to cast whir later.
From my testing with the deck we just dont have enough blue sources to reliably cast it on turn 3 or 4. The number of blue sources is 23 or 22 if you want to be casting a UUU spell on turn 3 or 4. Its a really powerful card and if it was 1UU I think it could work. If you do want to keep trying it, id reccoment collective brutality as a way to get the whirs out of your hand if you need, and mishra's bauble as another way to get 3 artifacts down with 3 mana up on turn 3.
I haven't even thought about a sideboard since there isn't much point if its a bad deck lol, but it could probably cast witchbane orb easier since you can whir for a ton on turn 4.
This isn't the new deck, but whir is strong and I think it deserves some testing. This is the first time in my magic career I've ever actually branched off and drastically changed a deck so any thoughts and considerations would be greatly appreciated.
Also its code name is blue lantern.
4 ensnaring bridge
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ghoulcaller's bell
2 Pyxis of Pandemonium
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective brutality
4 Spire of industry
4 Glimmervoid
2 Academy Ruins
2 darkslick shores
2 Inventors Fair
1 Blooming Marsh
1 botanical sanctum
1 Swamp
I think its good. This version with baubles and ghost quarters seems to have the most game against tron and valakut decks which are probably going to be more common since the hyper aggro decks all took a hit.
I totally agree. Also, playing revoker for the tron matchup, but then also giving them the ability to play ugin and kill revoker doesnt seem strong. also, Ghost quarter surgical is so much more consistent and I think the deck went from never being able to beat the valakut matchup to being in favor.
That foil infernal tutor is sexy, I just picked up two more foil bridges. So much respect. Ive been on the quest for over a year after I saw a completely foiled scapeshift deck.
The head judge was incorrect in this instance. An object can only exist in one zone at a time so if they have put it onto the battlefield it is no longer the top card of the library. Even though there is no priority given between finding the land and shuffling the deck the top card of the deck should still be revealed.[/quote]
Thats so awesome. I always assumed it was legal before, it does matter in fringe instances. I one time saw an ancient grudge as the next card and I wasnt expecting it, the next game i brought in cages.
The first changes were what i was thinking too when i first saw the list. It seems really solid.
This may have been answered a long time ago,but When zac was in the finals of gp OKC when his opponent cracks scalding tarn and takes the island off the top he says that he has to show him the next card and then shuffles. I was in the finals of a pptq and my opponent did the same thing and i told him to show me the next card, my opponent said that isnt a rule, the judge ruled in my favor, but the head judge ruled in my opponents favor. Who is right? and would something like this also apply for ghost quarter and taking the top card?
The video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lau6uQ4_R0s&t=1740s (1:01:49)