Deck felt really strong. Anticipate is incredible. Secure the wastes outperform for me. I think I'll switch Ugin for a second one, maybe the ojutai's command also.
The rest was balance, I really enjoyed it. Sideboard was simple but effective. I used every card in it.
Adding the secure the waste will help with going to time, I went to time twice. The first I would have won given 2 more turns and in the final we did a single game that lasted the full 50 min. I won 3 third turn with 3 lands left in the deck (ok grip full of dissolve and such).
Funny fact of the night : Narset emblem steal game against prowess base deck like ascendancy.
haven't played this list yet, but in response to @gxmiter, in the jeskai pure combo a lot of people were playing tormenting voice instead of divination. I personally did have success with it in the mana dork jeskai combo and I think it would fit this deck too since it is more agro and is basically looking to get combo pieces. It would be worth a try.
Overall I sided everything at least once yesterday except de needles. So I'm very happy.
I ended second of 16 because a result was badly entered and I missed the final but it was found out too late.
@GREW from the Nevermore rulings - Spells with the chosen name that somehow happen to already be on the stack when Nevermore enters the battlefield are not affected by Nevermore's ability.
So I had a lot of success back in lorwyn standard with B/W tokens, so I decided it may be time to play this. I did a lot of changes compared to the decklists of the primer or those we find in this thread. I'll review the major ones.
I've removed the call of the conclave and the haunting because I found they don't do enough of what the deck wants.
I also searched for a bitterblossom replacement. I came with mayor. With him playing ranger and gather the townfolk is more relevant. He is token and anthem effect. People play bad just to switch him back. Anyway with Garruk it is a very good synergy.
The rest is pretty self explanatory. I like how the deck curve more easily with the mayors. Also playing 8 creatures make garruk ultimate actually usable.
I played game day and lost only 2 games. 1 in Swiss and 1 in top 4 to the same U/W miracle deck. It got me thinking that back in the day I was playing thoughtseize and tidehollow sculler for hand disruption. Because terminus + devastation tide really are troublesome. So I'll try to put 4 duress in my 75. I also find my deck lacking removal sometime even if I rancored + charm olivia more than once yesterday:D.
So that's it, I'll continue refining this list (I had everything at 4 of to get a feel of how it was going).
Give it a try, mayor is a nice recurring token generator.
forbidden orchard could take care of the demonic dreads targetting problem.
in a version not playing show and tell and going for the cascade pillar or the paruns would work great too.
but still tendo ice bridge, gemstone mine, gemstone caverns, forbidden orchard and city of brass make already 20 lands. Not sure this deck want more.
I did like the street wraith idea and if this deck never need removal dismember is a nice option, one colorless to get rid of cursecatcher. I did play hypergenesis in extended and merfolk were not cool when countering hyper. Talking about that, chancellor of the annex is in my opinion necessary against FoW.
So the extended version add this discussion of going big and hasty with bogardan hellkites or big and resilient with darksteel colussus and others difficult to kill guys. I think that angel despair and blightsteel colossus would be great. None are legendary and the angel clear the way for a nice swing. Still STP would reck this, but you can only play 1-2 of each progenitus, emrakul.
@ Xover I have to admit my first opponent was a new player. but the GW deck was pretty good. the black was more of a splash for some removal side. The kiln fiend deck was weird, but agaisnt turboland it play pretty much like goblins and rdw deck.
And about the competitor level the FNM had ptq finalist and new player has well so a pretty good mix there.
Anyway some ideas on sideboard transformation tech?
I really like the deck and I feel it be in the developping competitive. It end some big tournament in the top 8 and it is well position in the current meta.
Hi, I played turboland (LSV main, some change side) for the first time this FNM and I won 4-1. Here a quick summary
round 1 U/W leveler : this deck is too slow and not controllish 2-0
round 2 vampire : turboland don't care about removal 2-0
round 3 GWb vengevine junk : one game I made the mistake to play explore instead of rampant growth when I was not sure to get my 4 land. lost. But the rest pretty easy except at the end of game 3 when I play mindspring and time walk 3 time in row trying to get that damn avenger. 2-1
round 4 Jund : not enough fast most game except for plated geopede, plated geopede, putrid leech on turn 4. 2-1
round 5 kiln fiend Ruw : I'm the only undefeated guy but we still do the fifth round. This is what turboland hate. the 2 game he won in 5 turns and even if I had avenger and cie, he had distortion strike or emerged unscated for is kiln fiend!!!
So I think this deck is very strong. My side contained 4 fog, that I feel are good against the agro based deck, but the rest of the side was kind of rubbish. So here's my idea. why not make a transformational sideboard plan. Something like the heartbeat deck of rav era. we could side out most of the combo (mind spring, rampant growth, oracle, etc) and have a solid 10-12 cards to counter fast agressive deck. I see a lot of talk about overgrown battlement, but wall of frost could be good. sea gate oracle serve double duty, maybe eldrazi spawn with nest invader and the other green guy to slow the other and speed us.
Also a more traditional manplan could be interesting with the new m11 baloth and leatherback baloth.
Haven't review the entire gatherer yet, but I'm pretty it is the only way against fast red deck and since the sideboard is not really usefull I think I'll give it a try. Ideas and comment are welcome.
What should our sideboard strategy be for this matchup? Oblivion Rings and Negates? I don't think Pithing Needle merits a slot in here, since you will more than likely just end up getting it Oblivion Ringed. Another option could be Gideon, I suppose, or Elspeth's of our own to help stabilize post-sweep.
not to forget elspeth ultimate which make all sweepers cry. I have been talking about garruk also to stabilize and help the general idea of the deck.
To Paphio:
1. What do you recommend cutting for Garruk? He's not bad, but there are much better things that the deck has access to.
2. Manlands win a ton of games, and playing one turn 1 isn't the end of the world. In fact, a turn 1 Colonnade scares UW as much as a turn 1 Hierarch.
3. Yes, the deck is meant to beat Jund, and Naya is just crappy Jund. The creatures are much bigger than WW and Allies, so yes those are also good matchups. Red is bad because they're so much faster, and have answers to punish a bad draw (2 lands and a Hierarch or something). Control is hard because they have so much CA adn sweepers.
thank you for your answers. To answer your question I think Garruk deserve maybe the elspeth slot if she's played. the all Gideon and Jace plan seem good, but even if gideon keep them of your back is does make you actually win. Even with the attack mode. Those are my 2 cents.
I've been wondering about Garruk. The deck already has so many little mana dorks that provide near infinite turns against the Rafiq deck for chump blockers, but in a conscription match-up once the big boys hit the board (KotR, Sovereigns) they essencially become lands. Garruk's overrun could be just the threat the mirror match needs to provide a plan-B if you're not going to get your conscription off first. four mana dorks out would then equal the same as a conscription attack. Wondering if anyone else feels this could be a valid strategy.
I actually do and was asking the same question in the conscription deck thread. I think he does everything the deck want (ramp, tokens and boost mana dork). Against the mirror it give the deck some nice beast to keep them from having an easy swing.
On another note, I think bant charm does more here than PtE. It protect the combo and remove and creature (with or without conscription). Maybe the mana cost is prohibitive, but at the same time mythic got a lot of mana going in.
Hi, I'm looking to play this deck for nat qualifiers. I have been playing naya for more than 6 months now and I feel that with the meta shifting to control more and more you need to be more agressive. So some quick question.
1 - why no Garruk, even the finest hour build doen't run him, but he is ramp. Allow board sweeper recovery and can make your little mana dork a huge bashing army.
2 - the mana base : I feel a lot of the land are cibt. doesn't go agaisnt the ramp idea
3 - sideboard and matchup : the side seem to be aim at control a lot plus the kor firewalker. does that mean jund,naya,ww,allies are somewhat easy.
Hi, here my tournament report in my 5-3 finish at ptq montreal. my deck list is here. I'll discuss the deck after.
match 1 Jund
game 1 I start slowly, he kill me simply by casting 4 thrinax
game 2 I side in the collar and sparkmage he does know it is haste I kill his siege gang tokens
game 3 we go to time, at the first turn I reccur 2 VV my board is huge I kille him on last extra turn
1-0
match 2 Jund
game 1 my CA is better than is
game 2 collar + vengevine = win
2-0
match 3 Jund (again)
game 1 I don't know is plying jund, keep a so so hand with 2 forst hierarch and kotr. In 16 cards I saw 2 lands. dead.
game 2 mull to 5 keep myself in the game until broodmate dragon breaks me
2-1
match 4 crypt combo
game 1 he kill my creatures non stop and then cast consume spirit 2 turn in a row
game 2 I side in my bojuka bog and manabarb. I make sure 2 have 2 creatures and drop a manabarb
game 3 I tectonic edge the crypt and drop bog turn 5, turn 6 scute mob activate and I play manabarbs.
He did a mistake thinking I had no bog abd not remove it with a sadistic sacrament, he was searching the barb but it was in my hand
3-1
match 5 esper control
game 1 I drop to 3 life, but then I have no board, he fateseal me with jace and ultimate jace
game 2 I run over him despite discardind 4 cards in the same trun thanks to 2 esper charms. luckily for me 2 of those were VV.
game 3 third turn I drop manabarbs and seal the game
He was not a pleasant opponent I always had to check is walker counter because he made all kind of mistake
4-1
at thant point I'm very happy, don't think I'll really make the cut but at least top 16 of 150 people and I'm very happy since I haven't done competitive in a year
match 6 U/W tapout
a very good player
game 1 I cannot push enough damage through he cast baneslayer and resume killing me
game 2 make a mistake killing jace when I should have simply attack him and hope for the bolt next turn. I did get the bolt but he simply negate it. so my mistake changed nothing
4-2
match 7 G/W agro
the last match simply kill me and this guy I know. Because of all that I do really stupid mistake
game 1 his life gain is better than my slow start I cast scute mob thinking it is a nactl screwing my block. student firststrike kill my creatures. I forgot to equip collar. dead.
game 2 I mull to five to run over him he does nothing
game 3 I keep a 3 fetch hand with baneslayer, BBE and hierarch. I draw only fetch from there and he poke me for 2 for 4 turn. I really start the game at 9 or 8 life and it is not enough.
4-3
now I'm depressed I made so many error against him and 2 lose in a row impact my mood. Anyway one round left maybe I can win some packs
match 8 monored splah blightning
game 1 I go down to 1 but collar scute mob and he is 1 land short apparently. I win.
game 2 he simply run over me with goblin guide and 2 ball lightning
game 3 on his third turn he blightning me for 2 vengevine on my fourth BBE into KOTR, bring back 2 VV swing for 12. he wants to clear the board with earthquake, but my kotr is 4/4 too big for is 4 mana. I win
I finally did the blightning into 2 VV hehe, and it gave me the game. It made my day.
5-3
so at 5-3 I'm really happy. With only one losse because of my mistake and 2-1 against jund. I finished 30th, so no packs for me.
The bojuka bog was agaisnt the mirror but only served for crypt combo.
Manabarb is really strong and each tine it hit the table I won. Scute mob is a really strong card, it won me a lot of game. I came with the conclusion this deck really play like a control deck with all the CA and answer fetching. So it is quite demanding because you always need to think ahead. The deck is strong, the manabase is less i'll maybe go down to 1 stirring wilwood and put sunpetal grove instead.
VV are really strong. People tend to play stupid when you have a VV in your graveyard.
Something the deck need is a token sweeper. U/W usually tapout for martial coup, so we could return the favor. Pyroclasm would be my choice, but if counterspell bather you fallout would be grea,. but 2 red is hard to cast. earthquake could be funny too doubling has a finisher.
The deck is really strong once it hit 4 land, but this may be too high a mana curve against a field made of U/W. I'll maybe try the G/W I played round 7 and people started talikng in this forums.
Hi, pretty happy to see people toying with this deck, especillay xxtalonxx idea to use the blossoms, but blossom and arena equal short game. The only life gain are the 2 jitte and could be long to find. I don't see the use of dorans, except maybe make the birds useful.
My try on this deck was more of a rock shell with blossom and glare. Sadly I never got to refine it. Extended is not big in my area. But to The rock approach defense I really like to disrupt they're and early and protect my glare.
For playing it too during rav time I also don't feel like the zealous persecution are needed except maybe against elfball but not to win by attacking, isn't teh goal of this deck to lock the opponent. Anyway I hope the discussion continue, maybe I'll rebuild this deck.
4 Plains
5 Island
4 Temple of Enlightment
4 Tranquil Cove
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
1 Evolving Wild
Spells 29
2 banishing light
3 last breath
2 nullify
4 dissolve
2 disdainful stroke
4 anticipate
4 dig through time
4 end hostilities
2 aetherpouts
1 secure the wastes
1 ojutai's command
2 elspeth, sun champions
2 narset transcended
1 ugin the spirit dragon
Side
3 encase in ice
2 surge of righteouness
1 disdainful stroke
4 negate
4 nyx-fleece ram
1 pearl lake ancient
Deck felt really strong. Anticipate is incredible. Secure the wastes outperform for me. I think I'll switch Ugin for a second one, maybe the ojutai's command also.
The rest was balance, I really enjoyed it. Sideboard was simple but effective. I used every card in it.
Adding the secure the waste will help with going to time, I went to time twice. The first I would have won given 2 more turns and in the final we did a single game that lasted the full 50 min. I won 3 third turn with 3 lands left in the deck (ok grip full of dissolve and such).
Funny fact of the night : Narset emblem steal game against prowess base deck like ascendancy.
My sideboard is
2 x terminus
2 x pithing needles
1 x cyclonic rift
4 x centaur healer
1 x detention sphere
2 x dispel
2 x negate
1 x azorius charm
Overall I sided everything at least once yesterday except de needles. So I'm very happy.
I ended second of 16 because a result was badly entered and I missed the final but it was found out too late.
Hope it help
Paphio
4 mayor of avabruck
4 borderland ranger
spells 22
4 gather the townfolk
4 lingering souls
4 intangible virtue
4 selesnya charm
4 rancor
1 tragic slip
1 sever the bloodline
walkers 6
3 garruk relentless
3 sorin, lord of innistrad
4 temple garden
4 sunpetal grove
4 overgrown tomb
3 woodland cemetary
1 isolated chapel
2 vault of the archangel
1 gavony township
2 plains
2 forest
1 swamp
3 abrupt decay
2 sundering growth
2 tragic slip
3 thragtusk
2 rootborn defenses
1 sever the bloodline
1 oblivion ring
1 vraska, the unseen
So I had a lot of success back in lorwyn standard with B/W tokens, so I decided it may be time to play this. I did a lot of changes compared to the decklists of the primer or those we find in this thread. I'll review the major ones.
I've removed the call of the conclave and the haunting because I found they don't do enough of what the deck wants.
I also searched for a bitterblossom replacement. I came with mayor. With him playing ranger and gather the townfolk is more relevant. He is token and anthem effect. People play bad just to switch him back. Anyway with Garruk it is a very good synergy.
The rest is pretty self explanatory. I like how the deck curve more easily with the mayors. Also playing 8 creatures make garruk ultimate actually usable.
I played game day and lost only 2 games. 1 in Swiss and 1 in top 4 to the same U/W miracle deck. It got me thinking that back in the day I was playing thoughtseize and tidehollow sculler for hand disruption. Because terminus + devastation tide really are troublesome. So I'll try to put 4 duress in my 75. I also find my deck lacking removal sometime even if I rancored + charm olivia more than once yesterday:D.
So that's it, I'll continue refining this list (I had everything at 4 of to get a feel of how it was going).
Give it a try, mayor is a nice recurring token generator.
in a version not playing show and tell and going for the cascade pillar or the paruns would work great too.
but still tendo ice bridge, gemstone mine, gemstone caverns, forbidden orchard and city of brass make already 20 lands. Not sure this deck want more.
I did like the street wraith idea and if this deck never need removal dismember is a nice option, one colorless to get rid of cursecatcher. I did play hypergenesis in extended and merfolk were not cool when countering hyper. Talking about that, chancellor of the annex is in my opinion necessary against FoW.
So the extended version add this discussion of going big and hasty with bogardan hellkites or big and resilient with darksteel colussus and others difficult to kill guys. I think that angel despair and blightsteel colossus would be great. None are legendary and the angel clear the way for a nice swing. Still STP would reck this, but you can only play 1-2 of each progenitus, emrakul.
my 2 cents.
And about the competitor level the FNM had ptq finalist and new player has well so a pretty good mix there.
Anyway some ideas on sideboard transformation tech?
I really like the deck and I feel it be in the developping competitive. It end some big tournament in the top 8 and it is well position in the current meta.
round 1 U/W leveler : this deck is too slow and not controllish 2-0
round 2 vampire : turboland don't care about removal 2-0
round 3 GWb vengevine junk : one game I made the mistake to play explore instead of rampant growth when I was not sure to get my 4 land. lost. But the rest pretty easy except at the end of game 3 when I play mindspring and time walk 3 time in row trying to get that damn avenger. 2-1
round 4 Jund : not enough fast most game except for plated geopede, plated geopede, putrid leech on turn 4. 2-1
round 5 kiln fiend Ruw : I'm the only undefeated guy but we still do the fifth round. This is what turboland hate. the 2 game he won in 5 turns and even if I had avenger and cie, he had distortion strike or emerged unscated for is kiln fiend!!!
So I think this deck is very strong. My side contained 4 fog, that I feel are good against the agro based deck, but the rest of the side was kind of rubbish. So here's my idea. why not make a transformational sideboard plan. Something like the heartbeat deck of rav era. we could side out most of the combo (mind spring, rampant growth, oracle, etc) and have a solid 10-12 cards to counter fast agressive deck. I see a lot of talk about overgrown battlement, but wall of frost could be good. sea gate oracle serve double duty, maybe eldrazi spawn with nest invader and the other green guy to slow the other and speed us.
Also a more traditional manplan could be interesting with the new m11 baloth and leatherback baloth.
Haven't review the entire gatherer yet, but I'm pretty it is the only way against fast red deck and since the sideboard is not really usefull I think I'll give it a try. Ideas and comment are welcome.
not to forget elspeth ultimate which make all sweepers cry. I have been talking about garruk also to stabilize and help the general idea of the deck.
thank you for your answers. To answer your question I think Garruk deserve maybe the elspeth slot if she's played. the all Gideon and Jace plan seem good, but even if gideon keep them of your back is does make you actually win. Even with the attack mode. Those are my 2 cents.
I actually do and was asking the same question in the conscription deck thread. I think he does everything the deck want (ramp, tokens and boost mana dork). Against the mirror it give the deck some nice beast to keep them from having an easy swing.
On another note, I think bant charm does more here than PtE. It protect the combo and remove and creature (with or without conscription). Maybe the mana cost is prohibitive, but at the same time mythic got a lot of mana going in.
1 - why no Garruk, even the finest hour build doen't run him, but he is ramp. Allow board sweeper recovery and can make your little mana dork a huge bashing army.
2 - the mana base : I feel a lot of the land are cibt. doesn't go agaisnt the ramp idea
3 - sideboard and matchup : the side seem to be aim at control a lot plus the kor firewalker. does that mean jund,naya,ww,allies are somewhat easy.
Thank you for your help.
Paphio
match 1 Jund
game 1 I start slowly, he kill me simply by casting 4 thrinax
game 2 I side in the collar and sparkmage he does know it is haste I kill his siege gang tokens
game 3 we go to time, at the first turn I reccur 2 VV my board is huge I kille him on last extra turn
1-0
match 2 Jund
game 1 my CA is better than is
game 2 collar + vengevine = win
2-0
match 3 Jund (again)
game 1 I don't know is plying jund, keep a so so hand with 2 forst hierarch and kotr. In 16 cards I saw 2 lands. dead.
game 2 mull to 5 keep myself in the game until broodmate dragon breaks me
2-1
match 4 crypt combo
game 1 he kill my creatures non stop and then cast consume spirit 2 turn in a row
game 2 I side in my bojuka bog and manabarb. I make sure 2 have 2 creatures and drop a manabarb
game 3 I tectonic edge the crypt and drop bog turn 5, turn 6 scute mob activate and I play manabarbs.
He did a mistake thinking I had no bog abd not remove it with a sadistic sacrament, he was searching the barb but it was in my hand
3-1
match 5 esper control
game 1 I drop to 3 life, but then I have no board, he fateseal me with jace and ultimate jace
game 2 I run over him despite discardind 4 cards in the same trun thanks to 2 esper charms. luckily for me 2 of those were VV.
game 3 third turn I drop manabarbs and seal the game
He was not a pleasant opponent I always had to check is walker counter because he made all kind of mistake
4-1
at thant point I'm very happy, don't think I'll really make the cut but at least top 16 of 150 people and I'm very happy since I haven't done competitive in a year
match 6 U/W tapout
a very good player
game 1 I cannot push enough damage through he cast baneslayer and resume killing me
game 2 make a mistake killing jace when I should have simply attack him and hope for the bolt next turn. I did get the bolt but he simply negate it. so my mistake changed nothing
4-2
match 7 G/W agro
the last match simply kill me and this guy I know. Because of all that I do really stupid mistake
game 1 his life gain is better than my slow start I cast scute mob thinking it is a nactl screwing my block. student firststrike kill my creatures. I forgot to equip collar. dead.
game 2 I mull to five to run over him he does nothing
game 3 I keep a 3 fetch hand with baneslayer, BBE and hierarch. I draw only fetch from there and he poke me for 2 for 4 turn. I really start the game at 9 or 8 life and it is not enough.
4-3
now I'm depressed I made so many error against him and 2 lose in a row impact my mood. Anyway one round left maybe I can win some packs
match 8 monored splah blightning
game 1 I go down to 1 but collar scute mob and he is 1 land short apparently. I win.
game 2 he simply run over me with goblin guide and 2 ball lightning
game 3 on his third turn he blightning me for 2 vengevine on my fourth BBE into KOTR, bring back 2 VV swing for 12. he wants to clear the board with earthquake, but my kotr is 4/4 too big for is 4 mana. I win
I finally did the blightning into 2 VV hehe, and it gave me the game. It made my day.
5-3
so at 5-3 I'm really happy. With only one losse because of my mistake and 2-1 against jund. I finished 30th, so no packs for me.
The bojuka bog was agaisnt the mirror but only served for crypt combo.
Manabarb is really strong and each tine it hit the table I won. Scute mob is a really strong card, it won me a lot of game. I came with the conclusion this deck really play like a control deck with all the CA and answer fetching. So it is quite demanding because you always need to think ahead. The deck is strong, the manabase is less i'll maybe go down to 1 stirring wilwood and put sunpetal grove instead.
VV are really strong. People tend to play stupid when you have a VV in your graveyard.
Something the deck need is a token sweeper. U/W usually tapout for martial coup, so we could return the favor. Pyroclasm would be my choice, but if counterspell bather you fallout would be grea,. but 2 red is hard to cast. earthquake could be funny too doubling has a finisher.
The deck is really strong once it hit 4 land, but this may be too high a mana curve against a field made of U/W. I'll maybe try the G/W I played round 7 and people started talikng in this forums.
4 x wild nacatl
4 x noble hierarch
2 x birds of paradise
2 x stonefogre mystic
1 x scute mob
4 x knight of the reliquary
4 x bloodbraid elf
4 x ranger of eos
4 x vengevine
spells
3 x lightning bolt
2 x oblivion ring
1 x basilisk collar
1 x behemoth sledge
5 x forest
2 x plains
2 x mountains
1 x verdant catacomb
2 x misty rainforest
4 x arid mesa
1 x evolving wilds
1 x terramorphic expanse
2 x raging ravine
2 x stirring wildwood
1 x tectonic edge
1 x seijiri steppe
2 x baneslayer angel
2 x qasali pridemage
2 x manabarb
2 x dauntless escort
1 x oblivion ring
1 x bojuka bog
4 x cunning sparkmage
1 x basilisk collar
My try on this deck was more of a rock shell with blossom and glare. Sadly I never got to refine it. Extended is not big in my area. But to The rock approach defense I really like to disrupt they're and early and protect my glare.
For playing it too during rav time I also don't feel like the zealous persecution are needed except maybe against elfball but not to win by attacking, isn't teh goal of this deck to lock the opponent. Anyway I hope the discussion continue, maybe I'll rebuild this deck.