Thinking about switching over to this deck as I have it mostly built ezcept for LOTV in the side and the 4th tarn. However, I am hesitant because I feel like the deck has really underperformed in my testing. Burn feels unwinnable and Jeskai and affinity atlre also really hard.
It seems like any competent burn player who knows to kill your threats, even if it takes two spells, and holds their burn for a sequence of eot bolt untap kill you will win the game easily. They have the inevitability AND the better early game. I don't see how burn can be at all a favorable matchup. the only games I've won against burn involve multiple stubborn denials and getting lucky not flooding on street wraiths. Even after trying to tune the mainboard to cut red entirely and have smooth UB mana and 3 stubborn denials, I have a less than 50% preboard, which is unacceptable imo. The preboard matchup feels so bad I am turned away from the deck.
Control variants also feel impossible. Without a LOTV mainboard, there is just no way to compete because we have to both prevent the burn gameplan as well as maintain threats.
I just don't understand how the deck is tier 1 with so many bad matchups. Maybe I'm keeping incorrectly. Do you all tend to mull hands without a threat? When is it right to try to resolve a shadow?
I also think there are cards that need more consideration in the deck. Pyroclasm seems really strong, I would consider a mainboard Lotv or brutality to throw away topdeck wraiths, crash through looks very strong as an alternative to battle rage, and deprive seems great in a build with minimal red. I also think 4 opt is a lot stronger than serum visions because of its synergy with stubborn denial, and it helps dig for lands better than SV which is more important than the deeper scry which gets lots to fetching half the time anyway.
I think a utility land is only possible as a 24th land and with 5 or 6 dorks. I played 23 with gavony for a while and it is a little too inconsistent.
The only bant eldrazi list to show up in rptqs had relics and eternal scourge. Very interesting and I think it is particularly well built against Jeskai but I personally don't like relic in the main deck at all.
Thinking about testing Endless one. It's particularly relevant against jeskai control and against path in general since it is a threat that can avoid bolt or queller and also benefits from the extra lands. It adds consistency and allows us to use mana efficiently. Also it can be cast under blood moon I would consider it as a 1- or 2- of in place of my current main deck ballistas which I would move to SB.
In a meta full of ponza, abzan, uw control, etc I think batterskull is really reasonable.
Ballista isn't really going to carry a game by itself against blood moon. You do need heftier blood moon resilience than it alone. I do think it is good in ponza or rw prison where we have a lot of turns with empty mana to dump into it and they don't always have the removal to answer it quickly.
I think the best sb answer to blood moon is still just a wastes. We can fetch it with path which makes it a lot easier to find than talismans. It's super narrow but in that meta would be something I would actually consider. Talismans can be super awkward.
I have two other cards I am interested in trying out in the sideboard - big thalia and gaddock teeg. Thalia seems like it should come in on the play in many matchups and buys lots of time. Gaddock teeg is great against storm, company, and maybe even valakut but nonbos with EE and chalice.
Batterskull is too slow against burn tbh. I do like the card, but I don't run it now because of ballista (don't want too many artifacts) and bc I don't see much abzan where it's best. Any deck with blue or red can interact with it via ceremonious or shatter/kolaghan. I'd sooner run rhonas which is also good late game.
1-ofs are indeed very minor but min maxing is all about finding those small percentage points wherever you can.
I am going to be looking into hashep oasis (+3/+3 desert) as a utility land. It is easier on our mana than gavony, is active a turn earlier, and has more potential on the turn it comes down, but not nearly as inevitable.
So I scrubbed out of my rptq going 0-2 against UR breach twice in a row and dropping. I won both game 1s but lost to blood moon in all of my postboard games. It was pretty miserable since our normal outs (dork casting skyspawner to give a scion, EE on 3) can be interacted with on their part with removal or counterspells.
I did manage to win one of those preboard games under a blood moon because of ballista. Ballista performed well overall and I liked having the mainboard creature castable under blood moon.
This experience makes me more likely to go back to natural state instead of rec sage. The original reason I liked rec sage was for the inevitability against Affinity, which is now achieves by walking ballista, and because sage better value against UW control and eldrazi tron, which are less relevant now.
Honestly though I don't think we have to SB much against eldrazi tron. The matchup is so favorable. I agree the only real cards to side out are skyspawner and extra EEs, so you only really have a few spots to bring in anyway. I would much rather devote space against valakut/storm/affinity/coco.
I bring in pithing needle, drowner, rec sage, and rhonas and that's it. Maybe dismember if I have it.
Disdainful stroke vs Flashfreeze is similar bc the main reason to bring them is primetime. I think disdainful is good mainly if you see a lot of regular tron (but not e tron). it's just okay against control.
Grafdigger is wrong against snapcaster decks. You're going down 1 card in order to MAYBE get one or two down from them.
The reason I prefer rec sage over nat atate is that rec sage is a threat itself. This makes it more palatable to bring in against UW control or eldrazi tron. Against blood moon and affinity alone, nat state is probably better.
I also really don't like stony against eldrazi tron. You want gas gas gas against them and don't want a reactive hand like stony silence path dork land land land land. Sure it can win games if you're on the play and you screw up their map, but the games you lose against etron are where you lose your tempo advantage and stony does not commit to the board.
For elspeth WW is too unreliable for a value play. The payoff for a WW casting cost card has to be pretty much winning you the game in order for the mana inconsistency to be worth it. We generally cannot support planeswalkers.
I think you are running too many copies of the same sb cards. You want redundancy but you don't want to flood on the same hate card.
EE is amazing against humans and there is a solid argument to running 3 main right now.
Brosterman, regarding chalice, I think it is just wrong to not at least run 1 for that exact reason. Sure it's fringe but that doesn't mean it's not the optimal choice. It is rare for individual cards to win games on their own and chalice is one of those cards. It also has broad coverage in that it hits random decks like living end and lantern control. Like I said I also think the matchup is plenty winnable without it anyway...
Lol it is definitely not the worst matchup for Bant... counters company / company decks in general are much worse. Any time you have access to cards that singlehandedly win matchups, they can't be your worst matchup. Chalice, Gideon's intevention, RIP, Worship, Eidolon/Rule of Law, +/- counterspells make it a very winnable matchup.
I have been fulminator'ed and avalanche rider'ed by them, trust me I know it's not great. I have also played blood moon variants which are even harder but still winnable. You're definitely not going to beat their nut draws of early multiple cyclers + fulminator, but the deck has a non-negligible fail rate and their slow draws can be maneuvered around by managing what's in your own graveyard. Often you have to think along their axis in terms of what you want in your own graveyard and when.
Living end is actually a reasonable matchup. We have big dudes that can actually win against a post-living end board state, so don't overcommit on board if you don't have to. I have won against living end preboard by baiting them into an early living end and saving displacer/drowner in hand.
Chalice also makes the postboard games easy. I have won on a mull to 3 against LE with chalice in hand.
In my testing, leyline is only really good against burn. Balakut and storm can be annoyed by it but also can disregard it entirely.
I also highly encourage cutting stony silence. The EE & in my case walking ballista are really good, and worship serves the same purpose as SS. You don't really need stony against tron, and needle can be better in some cases.
I have really liked ballista. I have wanted to draw it a LOT. The other night I was under a blood moon with no basics and topdecked one of my maindeck ballista which proceeded to win the game.
I personally don't like relic and don't play it. Every time I have cast it I have been underwhelmed. I just think it's a better alternative to a 2nd RIP. I've lost quite a few games where I just flood out on RIP and die. Sometimes they also have echoing truth so it's important to have different hate cards rather than multiple copies of the same. I would rather run something like Leyline, Relic, or Dismember which has utility in other matchups. If you are REALLY worried about storm I would run something like 1 Rule of Law, 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric, 1 RIP, 1 Leyline, 1 Grafdigger's. But that's super narrow.
I think Leyline comes in against Storm, Valakut, Burn, Lantern control, Ad Naus.
I haven't tested this enough but I think the 2nd and 3rd Leyline are questionable, because you aren't really gonna be mulling to find one. Your guess is as good as mine though because I haven't tested Leyline sufficiently.
I am also moving my 3rd EE to the mainboard again. It's just way too important against Affinity and Humans.
It seems like any competent burn player who knows to kill your threats, even if it takes two spells, and holds their burn for a sequence of eot bolt untap kill you will win the game easily. They have the inevitability AND the better early game. I don't see how burn can be at all a favorable matchup. the only games I've won against burn involve multiple stubborn denials and getting lucky not flooding on street wraiths. Even after trying to tune the mainboard to cut red entirely and have smooth UB mana and 3 stubborn denials, I have a less than 50% preboard, which is unacceptable imo. The preboard matchup feels so bad I am turned away from the deck.
Control variants also feel impossible. Without a LOTV mainboard, there is just no way to compete because we have to both prevent the burn gameplan as well as maintain threats.
I just don't understand how the deck is tier 1 with so many bad matchups. Maybe I'm keeping incorrectly. Do you all tend to mull hands without a threat? When is it right to try to resolve a shadow?
I also think there are cards that need more consideration in the deck. Pyroclasm seems really strong, I would consider a mainboard Lotv or brutality to throw away topdeck wraiths, crash through looks very strong as an alternative to battle rage, and deprive seems great in a build with minimal red. I also think 4 opt is a lot stronger than serum visions because of its synergy with stubborn denial, and it helps dig for lands better than SV which is more important than the deeper scry which gets lots to fetching half the time anyway.
The only bant eldrazi list to show up in rptqs had relics and eternal scourge. Very interesting and I think it is particularly well built against Jeskai but I personally don't like relic in the main deck at all.
Jeskai is not a walk in the park. They can win games if we dont have cavern. We are definitely favored but eldrazi tron and gds are in my view easier.
Ballista isn't really going to carry a game by itself against blood moon. You do need heftier blood moon resilience than it alone. I do think it is good in ponza or rw prison where we have a lot of turns with empty mana to dump into it and they don't always have the removal to answer it quickly.
I think the best sb answer to blood moon is still just a wastes. We can fetch it with path which makes it a lot easier to find than talismans. It's super narrow but in that meta would be something I would actually consider. Talismans can be super awkward.
I have two other cards I am interested in trying out in the sideboard - big thalia and gaddock teeg. Thalia seems like it should come in on the play in many matchups and buys lots of time. Gaddock teeg is great against storm, company, and maybe even valakut but nonbos with EE and chalice.
Batterskull is too slow against burn tbh. I do like the card, but I don't run it now because of ballista (don't want too many artifacts) and bc I don't see much abzan where it's best. Any deck with blue or red can interact with it via ceremonious or shatter/kolaghan. I'd sooner run rhonas which is also good late game.
1-ofs are indeed very minor but min maxing is all about finding those small percentage points wherever you can.
I am going to be looking into hashep oasis (+3/+3 desert) as a utility land. It is easier on our mana than gavony, is active a turn earlier, and has more potential on the turn it comes down, but not nearly as inevitable.
So I scrubbed out of my rptq going 0-2 against UR breach twice in a row and dropping. I won both game 1s but lost to blood moon in all of my postboard games. It was pretty miserable since our normal outs (dork casting skyspawner to give a scion, EE on 3) can be interacted with on their part with removal or counterspells.
I did manage to win one of those preboard games under a blood moon because of ballista. Ballista performed well overall and I liked having the mainboard creature castable under blood moon.
This experience makes me more likely to go back to natural state instead of rec sage. The original reason I liked rec sage was for the inevitability against Affinity, which is now achieves by walking ballista, and because sage better value against UW control and eldrazi tron, which are less relevant now.
I bring in pithing needle, drowner, rec sage, and rhonas and that's it. Maybe dismember if I have it.
Disdainful stroke vs Flashfreeze is similar bc the main reason to bring them is primetime. I think disdainful is good mainly if you see a lot of regular tron (but not e tron). it's just okay against control.
The reason I prefer rec sage over nat atate is that rec sage is a threat itself. This makes it more palatable to bring in against UW control or eldrazi tron. Against blood moon and affinity alone, nat state is probably better.
I also really don't like stony against eldrazi tron. You want gas gas gas against them and don't want a reactive hand like stony silence path dork land land land land. Sure it can win games if you're on the play and you screw up their map, but the games you lose against etron are where you lose your tempo advantage and stony does not commit to the board.
I think you are running too many copies of the same sb cards. You want redundancy but you don't want to flood on the same hate card.
EE is amazing against humans and there is a solid argument to running 3 main right now.
Brosterman, regarding chalice, I think it is just wrong to not at least run 1 for that exact reason. Sure it's fringe but that doesn't mean it's not the optimal choice. It is rare for individual cards to win games on their own and chalice is one of those cards. It also has broad coverage in that it hits random decks like living end and lantern control. Like I said I also think the matchup is plenty winnable without it anyway...
I have been fulminator'ed and avalanche rider'ed by them, trust me I know it's not great. I have also played blood moon variants which are even harder but still winnable. You're definitely not going to beat their nut draws of early multiple cyclers + fulminator, but the deck has a non-negligible fail rate and their slow draws can be maneuvered around by managing what's in your own graveyard. Often you have to think along their axis in terms of what you want in your own graveyard and when.
Chalice also makes the postboard games easy. I have won on a mull to 3 against LE with chalice in hand.
In my testing, leyline is only really good against burn. Balakut and storm can be annoyed by it but also can disregard it entirely.
I also highly encourage cutting stony silence. The EE & in my case walking ballista are really good, and worship serves the same purpose as SS. You don't really need stony against tron, and needle can be better in some cases.
I have really liked ballista. I have wanted to draw it a LOT. The other night I was under a blood moon with no basics and topdecked one of my maindeck ballista which proceeded to win the game.
Didn't get a chance to play at regionals but preparing for rptqs. Debating getting a leyline.
I think Leyline comes in against Storm, Valakut, Burn, Lantern control, Ad Naus.
I haven't tested this enough but I think the 2nd and 3rd Leyline are questionable, because you aren't really gonna be mulling to find one. Your guess is as good as mine though because I haven't tested Leyline sufficiently.
I am also moving my 3rd EE to the mainboard again. It's just way too important against Affinity and Humans.