Check it out: 3 Humans lists (all different to some degree) in the top 4 of the MTGO Modern PTQ this weekend, plus another list at 7th. Evidence that both Vial and Company shells are viable perhaps?
Fair point about Overgrown Tomb and Mantis Rider. That seems to be the only situation would prevent a T3 Rider though, smart mulligans should be able to take care of that. I'm not as worried about a T2 Mage, that card seems to play better T4-ish after you've gotten more insight into their hand/deck. The only problem with switching to white shocks is that it makes it a lot harder to cast CoCo.
Based on Karsten's rationale, this would give:
-12 natural green sources to cast CoCo by T3*
-9 natural white sources to cast Path*
-20 green sources for creatures
-17 white sources for creatures
-14 blue sources for creatures
-14 black sources for creatures
-14 red sources for creatures
*If you add 4 Hierarch and 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim, that would add an additional 2 green sources, 3 white sources, and 2 blue sources by the article's reasoning. That makes casting CoCo and path more viable earlier in the game.
I don't have Horizon Canopy available to me currently which is why it's not included. I could also see adding 1 Reflecting Pool or one Mana Confluence for one of the Thickets to hedge your bets with creatures.
I would appreciate any feedback you could offer, thanks!
Yeah, I was looking at Reflecting Pool also, but I'm just not sure about running the full 4, I feel like it could easily lead to extra mulligans when you draw Reflecting Pool without the proper colors available to "reflect". I could see running 1 or 2 in a mana base with 4 Cavern, 4 Territory, and some combination of fetches/shocks, but more makes me nervous. What does the rest of your mana base look like?
The first list a 5-color CoCo list running a very similar creature base to the Vial list Mullen ran, though I think there's a better way to construct that mana base than 4 City of Brass. Thoughts?
Last try. From what I've read here, we're wishing for something like..
Tangleroot Shaman - G
Creature - Treefolk Shaman - R
Lands come into play tapped.
2/1
I figured making the ability to affect only non-basic lands is too OP? I dunno. Anyway, that's enough card dreaming for me. FNM is around the corner and I need to test more things with actual cards.
People said the same thing about the new Thalia when it was spoiled, but it didn't turn out to be all that oppressive. I think the "Non-basic lands come into play tapped" version could work because it would be a niche card. Most decks running green in Standard and Modern are multicolored, so them running your version would be shooting themselves in the foot basically. Perfect card to move Stompy to a higher tier deck.
I really enjoy your article! Seems like you have a really good handle on the intricacies of the deck. I think Boreal Druid could be brilliant, I didn't even know it existed.
Not having played the deck personally, I'm always curious whether the fifth removal spell and the fifth mana dork are really worth it main deck. Would you consider them essential to the deck functioning properly or a matter of preference?
Elspeth strengthens the post-board matchup against many of the 'fair' decks in the format. Ultimately the extra percentage points post board are worth 1, maybe 2 sideboard spots.
What do you all think of Dimensional infiltrator? The obvious comparison is to skyspawner, but Infiltrator has a few advantages:
- Can ambush viper an important creature in the burn, zoo, affinity, and infect matchups
- Is a resilient threat in the late game and allows you to weather through times when you flood out; if you have the mana up, it's very hard to kill
- Is an alternate win con in prison scenarios (late game you can mill them 3-5 a turn)
- Doesn't need acceleration to be played turn 2
- Can be played turn 2 while holding path or dismember mana up
- Can screw up decks that rely on one-ofs
- Can screw up scry
You've done a great job of detailing the positives Dimensional Infiltrator could bring to the deck, I just think it's a matter of the role you're looking to fill. With Skyspawner, it's a one or two of at best with two main benefits: flying and acceleration into our more devastating threats. Infiltrator has flying but does nothing else that assists in our regular game plan. Also, the resources you'd be investing in Infiltrator are better spent on Displacer anyway. I could see Infiltrator being a sideboard card against prison decks or Death and Taxes, but that would be very meta dependent.
True, and really good point about the mana cost. I think that is the reason it's played despite it's conditional nature. I do understand the other side of it though too. I think it just comes down to what you feel is most important and most tolerable to you personally throughout the course of playing the deck.
For me, I've got a 2 Stubborn Denial/1 Negate split currently. I'm comfortable with the risk personally, but I can definitely see both sides of the debate.
I think Negate might be the best option for a couple reasons:
First, it's not conditional. Unified Will costs the same as Negate but is completely useless if we don't control more creatures. That's even more conditional than Stubborn Denial, which at least is still relatively functional without Ferocious enabled.
Second, and I think BBD alluded to this in his article pretty clearly, there aren't many creatures we're scared of enough that we'd need to counter them. We tend to do well against creature-based decks, so why waste spots on a conditional counter spell that we don't really need? The notable exception to this logic are creatures like Primeval Titan or Emrakul. That said, Emrakul is very rarely hard cast and Negate hits all the ways it's cheated onto the field. For Primeval Titan, you'd just have to save your Paths and use your Negates for Summoner's Pact and Scapeshift.
I hope BBD addresses his sideboard logic again in the near future, that was definitely a good read.
Also, I can see the logic with Blessed Alliance not being necessary either, but I think that it can really help against Burn and Death's Shadow (since you can target them with the lifegain at instant speed).
Good point on the double green for Eternal Witness, that's definitely a relevant consideration. This way I can be more comfortable running 2 plains/1 forest for Elspeth out of the sideboard and potentially running one main deck Ghost Quarter as well. I'll swap the Eternal Witness and Eldrazi Skyspawner and not look back. I hadn't thought of running one main deck Elspeth, although it might not be a bad idea if there's a high percentage of "fair" decks in the local meta.
I like BBD's idea of Elspeth in the board, but I'm also interested in 1 Eternal Witness in the main over a single Skyspawner. I recognize that it would be difficult to support both with the mana base, so I'm going to have to choose. My question to the group is which card is more impactful overall and why?
(I'm still in the process of building the deck, so I haven't been able to test personally.)
Of course, that first question has a potential follow up too... If I keep Elspeth and therefore run the singleton Skyspawner, is it worth the 3 Matter Reshaper/2 Skyspawner split or should I keep the full playset of Reshapers?
Relic is more limited because it only focuses on the graveyard. Nahiri, Chord of Calling, and Collected Company are shut off by Grafdigger's Cage but aren't affected by Relic.
If your local meta is light on Abzan CoCo, Elves, and Jeskai Nahiri, then you'd probably be alright with Relic. I'm sure there are other similar matchups to consider, but I feel like those are the most relevant.
Check it out: 3 Humans lists (all different to some degree) in the top 4 of the MTGO Modern PTQ this weekend, plus another list at 7th. Evidence that both Vial and Company shells are viable perhaps?
Thanks for the info on your work with the deck! What changes would you make to the list you posted based on your experiences?
Fair point about Overgrown Tomb and Mantis Rider. That seems to be the only situation would prevent a T3 Rider though, smart mulligans should be able to take care of that. I'm not as worried about a T2 Mage, that card seems to play better T4-ish after you've gotten more insight into their hand/deck. The only problem with switching to white shocks is that it makes it a lot harder to cast CoCo.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
I use this article as my guide when trying to build mana bases, and I've been playing around with the following:
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Windswept Heath
Based on Karsten's rationale, this would give:
-12 natural green sources to cast CoCo by T3*
-9 natural white sources to cast Path*
-20 green sources for creatures
-17 white sources for creatures
-14 blue sources for creatures
-14 black sources for creatures
-14 red sources for creatures
*If you add 4 Hierarch and 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim, that would add an additional 2 green sources, 3 white sources, and 2 blue sources by the article's reasoning. That makes casting CoCo and path more viable earlier in the game.
I don't have Horizon Canopy available to me currently which is why it's not included. I could also see adding 1 Reflecting Pool or one Mana Confluence for one of the Thickets to hedge your bets with creatures.
I would appreciate any feedback you could offer, thanks!
The first list a 5-color CoCo list running a very similar creature base to the Vial list Mullen ran, though I think there's a better way to construct that mana base than 4 City of Brass. Thoughts?
People said the same thing about the new Thalia when it was spoiled, but it didn't turn out to be all that oppressive. I think the "Non-basic lands come into play tapped" version could work because it would be a niche card. Most decks running green in Standard and Modern are multicolored, so them running your version would be shooting themselves in the foot basically. Perfect card to move Stompy to a higher tier deck.
I really enjoy your article! Seems like you have a really good handle on the intricacies of the deck. I think Boreal Druid could be brilliant, I didn't even know it existed.
Not having played the deck personally, I'm always curious whether the fifth removal spell and the fifth mana dork are really worth it main deck. Would you consider them essential to the deck functioning properly or a matter of preference?
You've done a great job of detailing the positives Dimensional Infiltrator could bring to the deck, I just think it's a matter of the role you're looking to fill. With Skyspawner, it's a one or two of at best with two main benefits: flying and acceleration into our more devastating threats. Infiltrator has flying but does nothing else that assists in our regular game plan. Also, the resources you'd be investing in Infiltrator are better spent on Displacer anyway. I could see Infiltrator being a sideboard card against prison decks or Death and Taxes, but that would be very meta dependent.
For me, I've got a 2 Stubborn Denial/1 Negate split currently. I'm comfortable with the risk personally, but I can definitely see both sides of the debate.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107571
I think Negate might be the best option for a couple reasons:
First, it's not conditional. Unified Will costs the same as Negate but is completely useless if we don't control more creatures. That's even more conditional than Stubborn Denial, which at least is still relatively functional without Ferocious enabled.
Second, and I think BBD alluded to this in his article pretty clearly, there aren't many creatures we're scared of enough that we'd need to counter them. We tend to do well against creature-based decks, so why waste spots on a conditional counter spell that we don't really need? The notable exception to this logic are creatures like Primeval Titan or Emrakul. That said, Emrakul is very rarely hard cast and Negate hits all the ways it's cheated onto the field. For Primeval Titan, you'd just have to save your Paths and use your Negates for Summoner's Pact and Scapeshift.
I hope BBD addresses his sideboard logic again in the near future, that was definitely a good read.
Also, I can see the logic with Blessed Alliance not being necessary either, but I think that it can really help against Burn and Death's Shadow (since you can target them with the lifegain at instant speed).
Thoughts?
For reference, here's my deck:
1 Breeding Pool
3 Brushland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Drowner of Hope
4 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Eldrazi Skyspawner
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Reality Smasher
2 Spellskite
4 Thought-Knot Seer
Spells (9)
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Path to Exile
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Negate
3 Stony Silence
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Thragtusk
What do you think?
(I'm still in the process of building the deck, so I haven't been able to test personally.)
Of course, that first question has a potential follow up too... If I keep Elspeth and therefore run the singleton Skyspawner, is it worth the 3 Matter Reshaper/2 Skyspawner split or should I keep the full playset of Reshapers?
Thanks in advance for the input!
If your local meta is light on Abzan CoCo, Elves, and Jeskai Nahiri, then you'd probably be alright with Relic. I'm sure there are other similar matchups to consider, but I feel like those are the most relevant.
Hope that helps!