I feel like the gifts version is a bit better overall. Gifts ungiven is just a really strong card without even considering the reanimation package. It allows you to play a reasonable control/grind deck when reanimation isn't useful or possible. It also enables free wins sometimes when you get out your norn or iona. Goryos on a norn is surprisingly relevant since it can instant speed wipe the board or enable you to go from having a few souls tokens out to swinging for 6-12 in the air and four on the ground.
Alright so I might be going too deep here, but if I replace the three think twice in my build with glimmer, which I'm strongly considering because TT has been pretty okay for me, then I'm left with a bunch of energy and nothing to do with it.
This opens up the possibility of running an aether hub or two. As the only consumer of energy it functions a lot like an untapped triland. Is this too cute or is there some merit here?
That card I really want to find some sweet synergy where we can draw two discard something that's great in the graveyard but we don't really have that. All our spells have synergy with snapcasters but that doesn't seem significant enough. I'm actually a little interested in it for esper reanimator.
Really? The drawback of bouncing a land in order to make it card advantage seems pretty large. Later in the game the land doesn't matter a ton but you could just revelation for more at that point. It seems closer to tormenting voice than divination.
There is the cute effect of saving a collonade from removal with it. I doubt that makes it worth running but people sure won't expect it.
I suppose it could also be a two mana sorcery speed draw two if you don't have a land drop.
Really? The drawback of bouncing a land in order to make it card advantage seems pretty large. Later in the game the land doesn't matter a ton but you could just revelation for more at that point. It seems closer to tormenting voice than divination.
There is the cute effect of saving a collonade from removal with it. I doubt that makes it worth running but people sure won't expect it.
Has anyone played much with glimmer of genius in draw go? I see a list that did well recently using it, but that doesn't always mean much. Scry two draw two does sound pretty appealing though.
I don't really agree with bringing in stoney silence for vials. It's a very narrow answer to a card they might not even draw. You can't be messing around with irrelevant cards against such a speedy deck. Unless you have cards that are more dead than stoney silence I wouldn't bother.
Otherwise what everyone else is saying is good advise. For what it's worth I play against a really good merfolk player pretty regularly with UW and I'd consider the matchup a bit in our favor. It really comes down to the turn four verdict plus another verdict sometime soon after that. They can usually rebuild after one sweeper but two is almost always game winning.
I suspect three mana is just too much for a mana leak. Impulse is very good though. I don't think we want three mana mana leaks or three mana impulses but I have high hopes for standard play
After fooling around with Grixis Shadow (with less than stellar results), I am planning on taking a Jeskai deck to the upcoming SCG Invitational (and the Open should I scrub out on Day 1). I'm looking at something similar to Tamada's list from GP Kobe. It's not as end-game oriented as the lists that are being discussed here, but it gets described as Jeskai Control and this thread is more lively than the UWR Midrange one. Here's the initial list:
I'm fan of having most everything as a four-of, makes the deck feel consistent. I also really like the number of cards that cycle. This deck likes to see cards AND hit land drops. I do wonder about how often the hand gets clogged with 4 of both Cryptic Command and Electrolyze. I'm also curious if having another threat would help. Maybe in the form of mainboard Clique, a couple of Geist of Saint Traft, or possibly even Secure the Wastes. A card that seems to be seeing less play lately is Spell Snare. Likely due to it not doing much against Shadow, Dredge, or Eldrazi Tron. Those decks still have some targets though, so maybe it would be better than mainboard Negate?
I'm leaning towards Relic over RiP in the SB right now because Relic can cycle to keep the cards flowing. That feels important since this version of the deck lacks any knockout card advantage engines like AV, Rev, or Planeswalkers. I think it may be a better option against Grixis as well for the times when their hand is heavy on the Shadow plan as opposed to Delve threats. I've seen some lists go heavy on Spreading Seas for big mana decks, but Ceremonius Rejection seems pretty good against Eldrazi Tron (unless they have Cavern!) and it pulls duty against Affinity as well. Also, would any of you consider bringing in Seas against Grixis Shadow since they are so limited in the number of mana sources?
Thanks in advance for any advice you guys have, and I'm happy to see the draw-go lists performing well online again!
I'm really low on spell snare these days. I don't recommend any. Don't cut electrolyze. That card is amazing and I can't advocate cutting them for garbage like clique. I've been playing tamadas list for a month and a half and been iterating on it quite a bit. I've tried clique all over and it keeps being terrible. I was really hesitant to cut it since I always play clique in whatever blue deck I'm playing but it was the right move. It opened up slots for more impactful cards for some of our crappy matchups.
The major change I've made so far is adding in three geists. The deck felt really good at getting the opponent to stumble and flounder for a minute but wasn't always good at closing the game out before they got back on their feet. Geist has solved that problem. I audibled to three geists the night before gp vegas and they came up huge for me. They give the deck an avenue to cheese bad matchups by just slamming a geist and hoping you can race then down with cryptic taps and burn. Speaking of cryptic geist makes your cryptics much better. You no longer worry about getting clogged up with cryptics since you can just use them to tap draw their team and get in for six.
As for spreading seas and Tron hate I've been much happier with molten rain plus ceremonious rejection. Rejection is good in several tough matchups. So is molten rain. I always try and snag a cavern with rains over other lands. Rain also contributes to the cheesing horrible matchups plan. Sometimes you have a lot of useless cards against a deck and rain gives you the chance to mana screw them and maybe do enough damage to get them into burn range before they do the thing you can't beat. I can't stress enough how important having a fast kill plan for "oh *****" matchups is.
I can second molten rain being solid hate. It doesn't go as well in draw go I'd imagine but in more agressive lists like counter burn, geist or queller it's been great for me. It also a spell I can board in for when I really just don't have anything to bring in against some random shenanigans but have loads I want out of my deck. Molten rain let's you try and cheese your opponent by mana screwing him or her.
Disclaimer: I've never played strictly draw go jeskai so I might be totally off base.
I've played nearly every control strategy in modern, esper draw go, esper delve, blue moon, jeskai nahiri, jeskai geist, uw draw go, uw midrange, UW land control. In my opinion if your aim is to play draw go esper is where it's at. It has great instant speed interaction in bolt and charm. I see some people confused about charms effectiveness and I promise it's one of those cards you have to play with to understand how useful it is.
I don't think esper draw go is very good right now. Draw go just isn't an archetype you can play if your goal is competitive success (winning a GP or open or something). That's why I'm on a jeskai geist/queller list. I think that specific strategy is the strongest one control has available to it at the moment. Jeskai excels in comparison to esper because it has a lot of other gimmicks beyond draw go. You can play jeskai midrange, jeskai geist, jeskai nahiri or jeskai draw go. It's a very modular deck with a lot of directions you can move into should the meta require it. There is also a nonzero benefit to your opponents not knowing what version you're on at first.
I took jeskai to GP Vegas this weekend. I dropped out of day 2 at 7-4 to go play in side events and go get lunch. What I ended up playing was a tamada style list with three geists in place of a helix electrolyze and a land.
Geist was absolute fire. I won so many games on his back. Spell queller was fantastic at keeping my geist safe and keeping my opponent off their game plan long enough for geist to close the door. I qullered three cavern of soulsed eldrazi in one game.
My losses were to affinity, bant eldrazi, GDS and 4c humans.
The affinity match was a bummer since I think the deck is overall pretty good against it. I faced affinity the round after that and 2-0'd in very convincing fashion.
The bant eldrazi match was also pretty sad. Game three I kept a great hand of two serum, geist, molten rain, electrolyze and bolt. I bolted his turn one noble, he missed his second land drop and proceeded to do nothing for six turns while I sat there on two lands with a hand full of three drops. I thought the serums would get me to my third land but no luck.
Grixis death's shadow was a blowout. Everything I tried to do he had a removal spell or stubborn denial for and I didn't draw much burn to burn him down when he dropped low for death's shadow.
4c humans was pretty close. Game one he stormed off with companies and such to flood me out with dudes. Game two I had the removal to keep him off guys long enough for geist to win me the game. Game three he kept a one lander with an avacyns pilgrim which I removed. He then topdecked flawlessly to curve out with mayor of avabruck into Thalia into anafenza the foremost into collected company hitting two lieutenants. I had a kozileks return in hand and I had counter magic the turn he caverned out Thalia. If he didn't rip cavern I had the game. If he didn't have Thalia I had the game. If he missed a single land drop I had the game. If he didn't have company into double lieutenant to get everything out of kozileks range I had the game. If I topdecked an untapped land I had the game. It was very unfortunate but that's magic.
Overall I think jeskai geist is really good right now. I saw several other people on the deck in game two. Only the one guy got into the top 32 but there were quite a few not far behind.
On the subject of card advantage spells, there is also Chandra torch of defiance. I've been trying one main and one sideboard in place of one electrolyze in the main and Jace in the side.
Much like Jace I have yet to draw her a single time in two leagues so I can't say how she does in practice but she sure seems like she would be good in the tamada list.
People keep saying queller isn't good against removal heavy decks and I have to wonder if they've ever played with queller. Queller looks like it would be bad against those decks on paper, but in practice I haven't seen that being the case. It's certainly nice when queller doesn't get removed but even as a remand that deals them 2-4 damage it's quite good. You need to have a more aggressive plan to take advantage of the tempo gain of course.
If you're running a slow more controlling version that blanks removal game one then queller is fantastic in your sideboard. In UW planeswalker control I board three in for almost every matchup.
Traveler, you're right that the deck is pretty soft to rest in peace. That's an argument for mana leak over knot I suppose. I think rip is an okay card for us because in most of the matchups where rip is good, knot isn't, so it's not a big deal to swap them for each other.
Relic could also work. Relic would allow us to bring in the grave hate for matchups where it's just annoying for the opponent but we still want knots. Matchups like grixis and jund.
I'm hesitant to run anger over return because anger kills queller.
I'm not really sure what the plan is against dredge. I've never faced it. I can't imagine it's a good matchup.
Gifts storm is a bit better. Keep their creatures off the board is plan A. Queller some stuff and don't let them resolve gifts ungiven. Don't be afraid to queller end of their turn just to have some clock. As long as you have a clock you can sit back on counters and burn for their dudes. It's not a great matchup by any means. Perhaps with relic or RIP it would get better.
This opens up the possibility of running an aether hub or two. As the only consumer of energy it functions a lot like an untapped triland. Is this too cute or is there some merit here?
There is the cute effect of saving a collonade from removal with it. I doubt that makes it worth running but people sure won't expect it.
I suppose it could also be a two mana sorcery speed draw two if you don't have a land drop.
There is the cute effect of saving a collonade from removal with it. I doubt that makes it worth running but people sure won't expect it.
Otherwise what everyone else is saying is good advise. For what it's worth I play against a really good merfolk player pretty regularly with UW and I'd consider the matchup a bit in our favor. It really comes down to the turn four verdict plus another verdict sometime soon after that. They can usually rebuild after one sweeper but two is almost always game winning.
I'm really low on spell snare these days. I don't recommend any. Don't cut electrolyze. That card is amazing and I can't advocate cutting them for garbage like clique. I've been playing tamadas list for a month and a half and been iterating on it quite a bit. I've tried clique all over and it keeps being terrible. I was really hesitant to cut it since I always play clique in whatever blue deck I'm playing but it was the right move. It opened up slots for more impactful cards for some of our crappy matchups.
The major change I've made so far is adding in three geists. The deck felt really good at getting the opponent to stumble and flounder for a minute but wasn't always good at closing the game out before they got back on their feet. Geist has solved that problem. I audibled to three geists the night before gp vegas and they came up huge for me. They give the deck an avenue to cheese bad matchups by just slamming a geist and hoping you can race then down with cryptic taps and burn. Speaking of cryptic geist makes your cryptics much better. You no longer worry about getting clogged up with cryptics since you can just use them to tap draw their team and get in for six.
As for spreading seas and Tron hate I've been much happier with molten rain plus ceremonious rejection. Rejection is good in several tough matchups. So is molten rain. I always try and snag a cavern with rains over other lands. Rain also contributes to the cheesing horrible matchups plan. Sometimes you have a lot of useless cards against a deck and rain gives you the chance to mana screw them and maybe do enough damage to get them into burn range before they do the thing you can't beat. I can't stress enough how important having a fast kill plan for "oh *****" matchups is.
I've played nearly every control strategy in modern, esper draw go, esper delve, blue moon, jeskai nahiri, jeskai geist, uw draw go, uw midrange, UW land control. In my opinion if your aim is to play draw go esper is where it's at. It has great instant speed interaction in bolt and charm. I see some people confused about charms effectiveness and I promise it's one of those cards you have to play with to understand how useful it is.
I don't think esper draw go is very good right now. Draw go just isn't an archetype you can play if your goal is competitive success (winning a GP or open or something). That's why I'm on a jeskai geist/queller list. I think that specific strategy is the strongest one control has available to it at the moment. Jeskai excels in comparison to esper because it has a lot of other gimmicks beyond draw go. You can play jeskai midrange, jeskai geist, jeskai nahiri or jeskai draw go. It's a very modular deck with a lot of directions you can move into should the meta require it. There is also a nonzero benefit to your opponents not knowing what version you're on at first.
Geist was absolute fire. I won so many games on his back. Spell queller was fantastic at keeping my geist safe and keeping my opponent off their game plan long enough for geist to close the door. I qullered three cavern of soulsed eldrazi in one game.
My losses were to affinity, bant eldrazi, GDS and 4c humans.
The affinity match was a bummer since I think the deck is overall pretty good against it. I faced affinity the round after that and 2-0'd in very convincing fashion.
The bant eldrazi match was also pretty sad. Game three I kept a great hand of two serum, geist, molten rain, electrolyze and bolt. I bolted his turn one noble, he missed his second land drop and proceeded to do nothing for six turns while I sat there on two lands with a hand full of three drops. I thought the serums would get me to my third land but no luck.
Grixis death's shadow was a blowout. Everything I tried to do he had a removal spell or stubborn denial for and I didn't draw much burn to burn him down when he dropped low for death's shadow.
4c humans was pretty close. Game one he stormed off with companies and such to flood me out with dudes. Game two I had the removal to keep him off guys long enough for geist to win me the game. Game three he kept a one lander with an avacyns pilgrim which I removed. He then topdecked flawlessly to curve out with mayor of avabruck into Thalia into anafenza the foremost into collected company hitting two lieutenants. I had a kozileks return in hand and I had counter magic the turn he caverned out Thalia. If he didn't rip cavern I had the game. If he didn't have Thalia I had the game. If he missed a single land drop I had the game. If he didn't have company into double lieutenant to get everything out of kozileks range I had the game. If I topdecked an untapped land I had the game. It was very unfortunate but that's magic.
Overall I think jeskai geist is really good right now. I saw several other people on the deck in game two. Only the one guy got into the top 32 but there were quite a few not far behind.
Much like Jace I have yet to draw her a single time in two leagues so I can't say how she does in practice but she sure seems like she would be good in the tamada list.
If you're running a slow more controlling version that blanks removal game one then queller is fantastic in your sideboard. In UW planeswalker control I board three in for almost every matchup.
Relic could also work. Relic would allow us to bring in the grave hate for matchups where it's just annoying for the opponent but we still want knots. Matchups like grixis and jund.
I'm hesitant to run anger over return because anger kills queller.
I'm not really sure what the plan is against dredge. I've never faced it. I can't imagine it's a good matchup.
Gifts storm is a bit better. Keep their creatures off the board is plan A. Queller some stuff and don't let them resolve gifts ungiven. Don't be afraid to queller end of their turn just to have some clock. As long as you have a clock you can sit back on counters and burn for their dudes. It's not a great matchup by any means. Perhaps with relic or RIP it would get better.