So many of the post and suggestions in this thread ultimately amount to "give white card draw" in some form or another. MaRo has reiterated again and again that that's simply not happening (outside of extremely niche, build-around cards that support existing white design space [e.g. equipment]).
Rehashing it is just wasting our time.
We need to look at ways to improve white's performance unrelated to card advantage.
Ways to strengthen agro strategies as a whole. Finishers in white's wheel space so that it can reliably close out a game. Maybe some ways for it to reign in singular players without making everyone else at the table hate you*.
*I actually feel like this is a big reason why playing white decreases your odds of winning in Commander. Because a lot of white's design space is occupied by cards/effects that are flat out unfun to play against, which causes everyone else to gang up on you just to get rid of that effect. Even if you're the only one who's keeping a run away player in check. Cards like Thalia, or Mindcensor, or Spirit of the Labyrinthe, or stax pieces etc may as well be giant blinking neon signs that say "KILL ME FIRST TO GET RID OF THIS!" And white in commander tends towards these effects, because it simply can't compete using one of it's primary tactic in other formats; creature agro.
Dovin is next up, he was mean to Chandra so he must be "EVIL".
Honestly i felt they did the same to Azor. He had to appear evil and unconsiderate just because... he likes rules and Jace need his spotlight?
Suddenly the guildpact is evil, even if it lasted 10k years and helped Ravnica become one of the most advanced plane, and suddenly also we learn that Azor screwed many planes, all of them off-screen and without giving details, just to paint him as the bad guy.
Meanwhile, Jace never stays on Ravnica and that apparently means that the guildpact doesn't work. Nice way to screw up a plane Jace.
Agreed 100%. Azor got character assassinated just so that Jace and Vraska could look good/sympathetic. I'm fully resigned to Dovin suffering the same fate.
I'd say Phyrexia definitely still has some of that White/Black tribalism. Also, it's only the Red faction of New Phyrexia that was forced into hiding, the Black faction submitted to the White faction's rule. That's why Atraxa is every color but Red, she was created by all four of the remaining Praetors after they'd forged their alliance. I actually see New Phyrexia as being four-colored, you can basically view it as combining Esper-style technocracy with Bant-style collectivism with Sultai-style expansionism.
On a semi-related note, I originally thought about listing the Borg Collective as an example of a Bant-colored organization, but I wasn't sure whether it should be considered White/Blue/Green (because it seeks to incorporate everyone into its 'perfect' society) or Blue/Black/Green (because it seeks to consume and absorb everyone else that exists, making everything into a part of itself). Mark Rosewater originally listed them as typical Blue/Black expansionist conquerors, but later considered them an example of the Green/Black plague-bearer archetype, and admitted that they could be seen as White/Green collectivists if you assumed their motives were benevolent (i.e. if they genuinely believed that the people and species they assimilated were better off as part of the Collective). Ultimately I'd say that, like the New Phyrexians, they're White/Blue/Black/Green. Given that the Borg's defining trait is that they completely lack individuality, I'd say that having them be Non-Red fits perfectly.
I don't think the Borg understand themselves as benevolent bringers of perfection as evidenced by the idea that they see some species as unfit to "enhance the collective". They are, even to themselves, just an organism that grows by incorporating other things into itself in order to grow and survive, not to grant those beings a better life.
It has been some time since I saw Star Treks Borg episodes, but if I remember correctly, they are definitely seeing themselves as "bringer of perfection", they are usually just not very preachy about it (and why should they?). At least the Borg Queen made several statements in this direction. They assimilate others without making moral arguments for it because in their mind they just know that they are right, and everyone else will just see it as they see it once they are part of the collective. I think arguments can be made about the Borg being any color other than black, but I would actually say that black is also a weaker influence since they reject individualism so utterly.
IIRC, the comment in question (From Seven of Nine, in reference to the Kazon) was that assimilation of the Kazon would have "Detracted from perfection." (It was also a silly throw-away line that never really made sense or served a purpose other than some stupid in-joke with the audience.) So I think that it could still fit into a "bringers of perfection to all beings" and the collective simply saw that the damage done to all other "perfected" beings by assimilating the Kazon would be greater than the benefit of perfecting them. In essence, it would have been a greater benefit to all life to eradicate the Kazon than to assimilate them.
If you're frequently running up against infinite combo decks, you could try Lapse of Certainty, Mana Tithe, and/or Dawn Charm. All tutorable with Sunforger, and very few people ever seem to remember that white has any counterspells. They're all pretty situational, and not a solution to all combos, but could help sometimes.
Even guilds not under Bolas control have sides that don't agree with the company line...Tajic and Aurelia are clearly not on the same page. Trostani cannot agree at all.
So I don't think its Bolas Faction Specific.
Quite right. All guilds are split between doing Bolas' bidding and not (whether knowingly, accidentally, or otherwise), it only varies in which group is the one officially in charge. No one guild is completely for or against Bolas, some are just more or less so than others.
Maro outright confirmed that there are "pro-Bolas" and "anti-Bolas" guilds, two in this set and three in the next. The guilds might have internal conflicts, but some are completely within his control.
That’s...not exactly what he said.
Maro confirmed that 5 Guilds would fall to Bolas but he also wrote of contrary movements within the guilds.
Just to expand on this, Maro said:
natsoumal asked: Hi mark! I was curious about one thing: the fact that there are two versions of each gate (even with phrases of different characters) show that in all the guilds there are two groups in conflict on supporting Nicol Bolas?
MaRo: Every guild is fighting the influence of Bolas.
So even the guilds that are under Bolas's control aren't "Completely within his control." There are factions of every guild that are fighting his influence. Some are just being more successful than others.
MaRo has already stated that the Bolas aligned guilds are all lead by planeswalkers and that those planeswalkers match the guild's colors, therefore if the Orzhov are on Bolas' side, the Obzedat have to have been destroyed (or at least deposed), and if they were replaced or even just controlled by Lilliana she would have to be WB.
The thing with Szadek's plan being to destroy the guildpact is that I can't really remember what his ultimate goal even was (aside from the aforementioned destruction of the magical guildpact itself). Can someone remind me what he wanted to accomplish in the end?
It's hard to tell what his plan was as of DIssension, and his long-term goals might have involved taking over the plane, but if so that was never stated. His goal in the first Ravnica book--and the stated goal of the Dimir for 10000 years, was to destroy the Guildpact, which they did.
Dissension, while a fun read, was an utter cluster **** of a novel and frankly one of the weirdest Magic books ever written. Amidst ridiculous giant monster battles, it also muddied the waters on a number of continuity points, including what exactly Szadek's ghost was trying to achieve, and who ultimately was manipulating events, Szadek or Augustin. It was also implied heavily at the end that Szadek had won again and achieved something big he may or may not been planning all along. The Dissension novel ended with the hero (Kos) setting out to try and stop him.
And then after that, the main hero of the first Ravnica Block and the biggest archvillain on the plane for the last 10,000 years just drop out of the Ravnica storyline and disappear with Agyrem.
-I have a hard time believing that Gorgons are the most downtrodden of Golgari. The Sisters of Stone Death ruled as tyrants for at least over a century (I don't have the book on hand to see exactly how long.) If they are downtrodden now, then this is a totally new development in the guild. Speaking of which, Ludmilla is still alive. Where is she?.
Well the Sisters Of Stone Death hadn't been ruling the guild for the last 60+ years.
Also since Jarad is a Devkarin elf, makes sense the Devkarin became the more powerful group then the Teratogens and it seem like current day the Teratogens are the oppressed ones in reversal of what it was like with SoSD.
Okay, I can accept that explanation. Still, given their raw power, you'd think gorgons would be at the absolute top of the pecking order.
I think that, despite their individual power, there are very few gorgons so they simply loose out against the larger groups out of sheer numbers.
Wisdom of Old4GU
Enchantment
As you cast each spell you may discard a card. If you do that spell's mana cost is reduced by the mana cost of the discarded card. (Mana cost includes color.)
A chaotically aligned guild would simply be more willing than a guild aligned with order to take actions to change the system.
Unless that orderly guild believes, or has been lead to believe, that they can achieve an even more orderly system by toppling the current one. Which was, IIRC Augustin's rational in the OG Ravnica block.
I've skimmed through the 9 pages in this thread... and I'm usually just casually into lore... but I didn't see this discussed:
Elspeth's return?
Since Elspeth is included in the masterpiece planeswalker series for Guilds of Ravnica, that means her escape from the Underworld on Theros will be a side story? (She's still stuck in the Underworld, right?)
I mean, that was the natural launching point for Return to Theros block.
I guess they're skipping that altogether?
We simply have no idea why Elspeth was chosen for the product, and no indication that she's at all story relevant (in fact I would argue that having her return without it being a major story event -- say a central plotline in a return to Theros block -- really doesn't make sense).
It is odd, though, that all of the planeswalkers in the series are known actors in the Gatewatch vs Bolas conflict,.. except Elspeth and Daretti.
Oh good, more Bolas horns marking obvious allegiance. I hate that design so much. Also, thopters- Dovin Baan or Tezzerett puppetry confirmed?
I'm voting/hoping Tezzeret for a few reasons:
1) I really like Dovin Baan's character as portrayed in Kaladesh, and feel like it's be character assassination for him to be a Bolas minion.
2) Baan isn't an artificer (his abilities are a sort of psychometry or clairsentience, while he can and does use this in relation to artifacts, he's never been shown to create artifacts hiself), but Tezzeret IS an artificer and could make the thopters himself
3) This is exactly what Tezzeret did on Kaladesh -- infiltrating the (specifically white-aligned) government body of the city/plane -- it would make sense for him to do so again.
EDIT: To be fair, points against Tezzeret being the Bolas'walker involved with the Azorius:
1) Tezzerert's cards are always heavily artifact based, and the Azorius has never been an artifact based guild (in fact none have)
2) We know that the Bolas'walkers will share their guild's colors, and a WU Tezzeret is a departure from his previous color identities (UB and monoU)
3)Dovin flat out "feels" more in-line with, and fits better within the Azorius guild
Yeah, could be an interesting and risky way of making your creatures indestructible indefinitely, if you can find a way around the EOT trigger. For commander I’d probably try to get out grand abolisher on the field before trying it just to make sure they can’t remove the sundial of the infinite or platinum angel I would need to survive.
Angel's Grace is another option for formats where it's legal.
Rehashing it is just wasting our time.
We need to look at ways to improve white's performance unrelated to card advantage.
Ways to strengthen agro strategies as a whole. Finishers in white's wheel space so that it can reliably close out a game. Maybe some ways for it to reign in singular players without making everyone else at the table hate you*.
*I actually feel like this is a big reason why playing white decreases your odds of winning in Commander. Because a lot of white's design space is occupied by cards/effects that are flat out unfun to play against, which causes everyone else to gang up on you just to get rid of that effect. Even if you're the only one who's keeping a run away player in check. Cards like Thalia, or Mindcensor, or Spirit of the Labyrinthe, or stax pieces etc may as well be giant blinking neon signs that say "KILL ME FIRST TO GET RID OF THIS!" And white in commander tends towards these effects, because it simply can't compete using one of it's primary tactic in other formats; creature agro.
Agreed 100%. Azor got character assassinated just so that Jace and Vraska could look good/sympathetic. I'm fully resigned to Dovin suffering the same fate.
IIRC, the comment in question (From Seven of Nine, in reference to the Kazon) was that assimilation of the Kazon would have "Detracted from perfection." (It was also a silly throw-away line that never really made sense or served a purpose other than some stupid in-joke with the audience.) So I think that it could still fit into a "bringers of perfection to all beings" and the collective simply saw that the damage done to all other "perfected" beings by assimilating the Kazon would be greater than the benefit of perfecting them. In essence, it would have been a greater benefit to all life to eradicate the Kazon than to assimilate them.
Quite right. All guilds are split between doing Bolas' bidding and not (whether knowingly, accidentally, or otherwise), it only varies in which group is the one officially in charge. No one guild is completely for or against Bolas, some are just more or less so than others.
Just to expand on this, Maro said:
So even the guilds that are under Bolas's control aren't "Completely within his control." There are factions of every guild that are fighting his influence. Some are just being more successful than others.
I think that, despite their individual power, there are very few gorgons so they simply loose out against the larger groups out of sheer numbers.
Enchantment
As you cast each spell you may discard a card. If you do that spell's mana cost is reduced by the mana cost of the discarded card. (Mana cost includes color.)
Next: Queen Marchesa
Unless that orderly guild believes, or has been lead to believe, that they can achieve an even more orderly system by toppling the current one. Which was, IIRC Augustin's rational in the OG Ravnica block.
We simply have no idea why Elspeth was chosen for the product, and no indication that she's at all story relevant (in fact I would argue that having her return without it being a major story event -- say a central plotline in a return to Theros block -- really doesn't make sense).
It is odd, though, that all of the planeswalkers in the series are known actors in the Gatewatch vs Bolas conflict,.. except Elspeth and Daretti.
I'm voting/hoping Tezzeret for a few reasons:
1) I really like Dovin Baan's character as portrayed in Kaladesh, and feel like it's be character assassination for him to be a Bolas minion.
2) Baan isn't an artificer (his abilities are a sort of psychometry or clairsentience, while he can and does use this in relation to artifacts, he's never been shown to create artifacts hiself), but Tezzeret IS an artificer and could make the thopters himself
3) This is exactly what Tezzeret did on Kaladesh -- infiltrating the (specifically white-aligned) government body of the city/plane -- it would make sense for him to do so again.
EDIT: To be fair, points against Tezzeret being the Bolas'walker involved with the Azorius:
1) Tezzerert's cards are always heavily artifact based, and the Azorius has never been an artifact based guild (in fact none have)
2) We know that the Bolas'walkers will share their guild's colors, and a WU Tezzeret is a departure from his previous color identities (UB and monoU)
3)Dovin flat out "feels" more in-line with, and fits better within the Azorius guild
Angel's Grace is another option for formats where it's legal.