Pact of Negation seems like it would be decent in dragonstorm but Im not sure where they would fit it. Most of the list that I saw from champs only had room for 4 md countermagic slots, Im not sure that pact gets run over remand, otherwise theres not much room for it without removing actual combo pieces.
Thing is though, the list Im running plays more like reanimator than combo. You arent forced into an all or nothing position as you are with flamekin variants. In terms of "streamlined" I dont think that dragonstorm anymore exemplifies it than dredge. I mean, in my list you either draw a discard outlet or a dredge card. Its focal point is pretty clear, you fill your grave up, and it does so both quickly and efficiently.
First off mentor? WTH? I understand what its used for but tokens don't add up to tokens from BfB.
Quite obviously a 2/2 is better than a 1/1, but your incinuation was that this deck could not survive a crypt being sacrificed, when I assure you, it can. He was just an example of the many things I have left to still win the game with. I mean, a 1/1 will win you a game if your opponent doesnt find an answer right?
Quote from lycantivis »
And secondly any deck where you see 1 crypt sided in usually is gona have 3 total in the side. So you pop one and hope they don't drop another. While in the mean time its buying turns which just like dstorm the longer the game goes the harder it gets for you to win.
Assuming the amount of crypts they will have in their sb seems like a pretty bad idea to me. Unless youre clairvoyant how can you be sure? All you can do is react to what is on the board. Regardless though, even if they have 3 crypts and hypothetically lets say you are running 3 grudge in the sb, no deck in the format burns through their deck faster than dredge. Its just mathematically more probable for me to find a grudge in my yard than you are to draw 3 out of your deck.
I was having a discussion with a former teammate last evening and yes, even we made the ravager comparison. First off, we had agreed that it is nowhere as resilient to hate. Remember "Freshmaker" when ravager came out? The deck ran oxidize, viridian shaman, molder slug, electorstatic bolt and naturalize out of the board, and some how ravager and disciple still prevailed. Nonetheless, I recalled a quote of Osyp Lebdowicz (my bad for more than likely butchering his last name), basically he was saying ravager was like your fairy godmother, he just kind of sat on your shoulder and played the deck for you. In the hands of a bad player ravager was good, in the hands of a good player he was damn near unstoppable. I think same is true for dredge.dec. I have seen more than a few people play it, and I have to be honest, a lot of them dont even have a clue how to effectively use the deck and I still see them pulling off 2-0 rounds.
yea my appologies I had the colors backwards, there are so many better cards than it I rarely look it beyond when I open it from packs.
Seriously though to be a good deck builder you need to have knoweldge of every card in the format, regardless of what you might think is bad now, it could eventually become good, or as is this case in this situation, it might fit into a specific deck that can support its usage.
Point still stands that if you dredge a troll and its land, akroma, hellkite, grudge, dread return. Even if you force it you have how many targets left to win with?
I still have another copy of akroma, 4 stinkweed, 4 narcomeoba, 3 troll, 4 llanowar mentor making elves, 4 greenseeker and 3 street wraith, not to mention any BfB zombies I might accrue along the way. So instead of allowing crypt to sit on the board and completely disrupt your entire game, I mean lets face it youre not going to be dredging with this on the board and for the most part if you dont dredge you dont win with this deck, why allow them to use crypt to its full effectiveness? pop it when its not convenient for them to do so, ensuring you have other win conditions to beat them with.
heres the link to Ancient Grudge
you might want to check the flashback cost
so in actuality its probably better against crypt than grip because it can still be used if its dredged into your yard and its cheaper, which is more synergistic with the decks low land count.
No offense but your last post was extremely snide for someone who didnt even take the time to read the card in question.
LOL, ancient grudge as a crypt answer so funny. Either way your grave is going away its still hurting.
Obviously the grave getting removed hurts a graveyard based recursion deck. I dont need bridge to win games, thats why the list I posted is better than the all in flamekin version. Id much rather prefer I dictate when they pop of their crypt so they dont hit all of my alternate win conditions such as Akroma and Hellkite.
I think that it has potential but people have to come up with an alternate win condition otherwise the deck will die to so much hate.
Right thats why Im definitely saying the version with hellkite and akroma is a lot better.
Quote from lycantivis »
The deck never actually won any thing big. Let alone had it been as good as people make it out to be wouldn't it be alot more than 1 or 2 in top 8, shouldn't it have been like 6 of the top 8?
Well considering the incarnation of the deck at hand that we are discussing is that which uses Bridge from Below. Seeing as Bridge was just released with FS, what big tournament would you have like it to won, considering it became legal on the 20th of this month?
CoP:red just like augustin only makes the dstorm player just hold off for a few turns till they repeal on the EOT and then goes off. Trickbind is the ONLY solid answer for against Dstorm post FS. Even then they have the gigadrowse, best situation is that you played a karoo 2nd turn and hope you have the remand for the replicate copy that is targeting the karoo to trickbind with.
So essentially, cop red is temporary and situational at best? That to me means it isnt going to be included in my sb as an option against that particular deck.
I think the issue here is everyone is discussing a different build of the deck, some the flame-kin variant with blue splash for magus and what not, whereas I honestly dont think that is the best version. Personally I think the five color variant with 18 lands is probably the most stable running not only the bridge but akroma and hellkite with primarily a BG base.
You make a valid point on solifuge that many people have thought about, and many more disregard. The thing is though, that he ends up being a powerhouse against control since he can't be targeted, and they rarely run anything unimportant they want to chump block with.
Heres how I break down his usage though against control;
Angelfire First and foremost I would like to say even if solifuge is the most optimal card for the deck I do not think he is a 4 of. That said, in terms of assigning a numerical percentage to how often you will draw your solifuges to how often they will draw their court hussars, the odds are in their favor with them running a set of compulsive researches, or something like forsee. Lightning angel will trade with him in dire straits, and wrath gets rid of him the turn after so youre pretty much guaranteed to only get one swing in. I think random burn spell X in this match is more relevant as it doesnt become less effective with hussar on the board and it goes over the top of chump blocking angel. Also some lists are now playing calciderm, which is an absolute house against us and they can play him turn 3 with help of a signets and bounce lands.
Dralnu, which isnt really playing the dralnu anymore To be honest Im curious to see how the deck evolves now that GP strausborgh is over and done with. Teachings based control put 20 players on to day 2, a lot of whom were splashing white. Granted this was a block gp, I think it does provide some insight on where the archetype is headed for all intents and purposes Ill use that as my model. Its been my experience playing the game that control players are extremely hesitant to counter burn spells. Most falling victim to the, "its only a few damage right now, not a major threat" mindset. Also something to note is all of their removal murders our whole team sans the solifuge (if hes in the deck). So my contention is, on turn 4 when you want to cast your solifuge so you can hope it might hit home without hitting an enormous aeon chronicler, odds are they are going to have some sort of countermagic for it, whereas I said before I think you are more likely to sneak a burn spell in when they tap themselves down. Essentially my argument comes down to they will eventually be able to block the solifuge whereas never will they be able to chump block a burn spell.
UR Tron In this match I would suffice to say that the solifuge is better. Their only out to him is wildfire, otherwise the remainder of their removal is all targeted until game 2, and they run few creatures so the odds he gets in more than once are greater making him in this case more efficient than a burn spell.
Solar Flare Again solar flare stands a better chance of a finding a court hussar than you do a solifuge if not solely because of compulsive research. Then comes the issue of the reanimated fat, if its akroma, the burn spell goes over her head, whereas solifuged gets crushed. Angel of destruction blocks the spider all day, Skeletal Vamp chumps and regens, and the lists running Hakkon have no issue throwing him in the way to block your spider, and have 4 mana deal 1 dmg.
Pickles I think this match depends on your opponents decision to play will bender or not. If he has a higher count of willbender burn spells are slightly more risky. However, they also have fathom seer which will soak up the majority of the solifuges damage. Personally I would rather the burn spell again though to disrupt their morphs.
If theres another match youd like to look at Id be happy to, 4 out 5 match ups where Id rather cast a burn spell though was more than enough convincing for me.
Quote from What-a-noob »
Personally, I can see Demonfire replacing him. As expensive as it is for a low curve deck like this, it generally owns control when you're on your last legs, and it's also good against aggro since it can hit creatures too. (Helps even more when you face Haakon, Stromgald scourge, nether traitor, or Stinkweed Imp)
Ive tested my list quite a bit and not many times have really been like, ohh gosh I could really use a demonfire right now. Ive never much cared for X damage spells in decks with such a low curve. Recursive guys are going to be an issue, but as is the case with nether traitor or stinkweed, we can easily outrace their beats regardless. Ive never aimed any burn spell at stinkweed, mainly because outside the yard hes a 1/2 with a basilisk effect. I want to keep him out of the yard and on the table because with such a high concentration of burn spells, his 1 pt of damage a turn will almost never be enough to race me. Nether Traitor, I will also take the 1 dmg beats and rather play an efficient spell than playing one that isnt very synergistic with this deck. Against anything with countermagic, I dont really think we need an ace in the whole against them, typically we can beat them through play of early aggro threats and then well timed burn spells thereafter, the need for an uncounterable dmg spell isnt all that in high demand.
Quote from What-a-noob »
Most aggro decks now-a-days pack things with toughness of 3 or higher, gruul does, zoo does, boros doesn't necessarily...
Gruul and Zoo do undoubtedly. Against UG aggro Id prefer to have all 8, in the mirror Id prefer to have all 8, against boros Id def want all 8, against dredge I like all 8 for their discard outlets, mono black aggro Ill take all 8, mono green especially the haste variants with groundbreaker and uktabi drake, otherwise you can pretty much rest assured llanowars and birds arent accelerating and scryb ranger is hanging around very long. Keep in mind too I am also running 4 Lightning helix in addition to 4 rift bolt and 3 hammer, so 3 toughness guys arent going to be an issue. However in all of the other situations I listed, id rather shock the small aggro guy and send the 3 dmg burn spell at the dome.
Quote from What-a-Noob »
Thunderblade Charge might be good for it though, since you'd be able to pull out more burn than them I guess...
The charge is just awful, test it a bit and Im sure you will agree.
About the Dragonstorm matchup: I have found Trickbind to be even better than Grand Arbiter Augustin IV. I have both in my SB (along with CoP: Red).
as is the problem with cop: red, the same can be said for trickbind. If you play any way to cast blue spells, youre getting gigadrowsed before they go off. Therefor trickbind is irrelevant to them on their turn. Also because you cant stack the cop red effect against damage that has yet to happen , cop: red isnt the best answer either, especially as it also falls victim to repeal.
and then Alex Shvartsman ran this is 2000, in my opinion slighs proverbial last stand where the arhcetype took more of a turn towards what we now know as Red Deck Wins.
So as you can see, more often than not even sligh builds do not conform to the equal thirds theory, I think that to be more of an magic myth.
Well thats enough history for the day. Onto your list.
No ruskala I think is a grievous error. The guy has one me many martches and id never thought id say a 1/1 was a house, but he does screw with control players quite a lot. I think he definitely makes the cut over raging goblin. If your opponent casts court hussar or wall of roots its nice to know your 1 drop isnt now totally useless.
I really didnt like solifuge. Odds are you tap out turn 4 to play him, you have no mana left to remove blockers unless you have already cast seal of fire so you swing and he runs over some 1/1 chump blocker netting 3 damage, which could just be achieved for less mana, even eot with something like ghostfire. For all intents and purposes the spider is an over costed burn spell.
I also dont think I would play this deck without the 8 1cc 2dmg burn spells shock and seal of fire. Having 8 spells like this gives you a firm advantage in the aggro matches.
Pyroclasm in the board has the potential to kill your team of men off the board just the same as it would an opponent swarm of weenies. I dont think its synergistic with this deck, especially because most aggro decks it would effect can in fact be raced with burn if you now the correct targets to hit.
Thing is though, the list Im running plays more like reanimator than combo. You arent forced into an all or nothing position as you are with flamekin variants. In terms of "streamlined" I dont think that dragonstorm anymore exemplifies it than dredge. I mean, in my list you either draw a discard outlet or a dredge card. Its focal point is pretty clear, you fill your grave up, and it does so both quickly and efficiently.
4 Dread Return
3 Life from the Loam
4 Delirium Skeins
1 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Greenseeker
4 Llanowar Mentor
3 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Snow-Covered Swamp
5 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Ghost Quarter
Quite obviously a 2/2 is better than a 1/1, but your incinuation was that this deck could not survive a crypt being sacrificed, when I assure you, it can. He was just an example of the many things I have left to still win the game with. I mean, a 1/1 will win you a game if your opponent doesnt find an answer right?
Assuming the amount of crypts they will have in their sb seems like a pretty bad idea to me. Unless youre clairvoyant how can you be sure? All you can do is react to what is on the board. Regardless though, even if they have 3 crypts and hypothetically lets say you are running 3 grudge in the sb, no deck in the format burns through their deck faster than dredge. Its just mathematically more probable for me to find a grudge in my yard than you are to draw 3 out of your deck.
I was having a discussion with a former teammate last evening and yes, even we made the ravager comparison. First off, we had agreed that it is nowhere as resilient to hate. Remember "Freshmaker" when ravager came out? The deck ran oxidize, viridian shaman, molder slug, electorstatic bolt and naturalize out of the board, and some how ravager and disciple still prevailed. Nonetheless, I recalled a quote of Osyp Lebdowicz (my bad for more than likely butchering his last name), basically he was saying ravager was like your fairy godmother, he just kind of sat on your shoulder and played the deck for you. In the hands of a bad player ravager was good, in the hands of a good player he was damn near unstoppable. I think same is true for dredge.dec. I have seen more than a few people play it, and I have to be honest, a lot of them dont even have a clue how to effectively use the deck and I still see them pulling off 2-0 rounds.
Seriously though to be a good deck builder you need to have knoweldge of every card in the format, regardless of what you might think is bad now, it could eventually become good, or as is this case in this situation, it might fit into a specific deck that can support its usage.
I still have another copy of akroma, 4 stinkweed, 4 narcomeoba, 3 troll, 4 llanowar mentor making elves, 4 greenseeker and 3 street wraith, not to mention any BfB zombies I might accrue along the way. So instead of allowing crypt to sit on the board and completely disrupt your entire game, I mean lets face it youre not going to be dredging with this on the board and for the most part if you dont dredge you dont win with this deck, why allow them to use crypt to its full effectiveness? pop it when its not convenient for them to do so, ensuring you have other win conditions to beat them with.
heres the link to Ancient Grudge
you might want to check the flashback cost
so in actuality its probably better against crypt than grip because it can still be used if its dredged into your yard and its cheaper, which is more synergistic with the decks low land count.
No offense but your last post was extremely snide for someone who didnt even take the time to read the card in question.
Obviously the grave getting removed hurts a graveyard based recursion deck. I dont need bridge to win games, thats why the list I posted is better than the all in flamekin version. Id much rather prefer I dictate when they pop of their crypt so they dont hit all of my alternate win conditions such as Akroma and Hellkite.
yes, congratulations youre now the 1 millionth person to point that out.
Regardless though, ancient grudge is run in some sb just so the dredge player can determine when you sac the crypt.
4 Dread Return
3 Life from the Loam
4 Delirium Skeins
1 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Greenseeker
4 Llanowar Mentor
3 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
2 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Snow-Covered Swamp
5 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Svogthos, the Restless Tomb
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Ghost Quarter
Right thats why Im definitely saying the version with hellkite and akroma is a lot better.
Well considering the incarnation of the deck at hand that we are discussing is that which uses Bridge from Below. Seeing as Bridge was just released with FS, what big tournament would you have like it to won, considering it became legal on the 20th of this month?
So essentially, cop red is temporary and situational at best? That to me means it isnt going to be included in my sb as an option against that particular deck.
Heres how I break down his usage though against control;
Angelfire
First and foremost I would like to say even if solifuge is the most optimal card for the deck I do not think he is a 4 of. That said, in terms of assigning a numerical percentage to how often you will draw your solifuges to how often they will draw their court hussars, the odds are in their favor with them running a set of compulsive researches, or something like forsee. Lightning angel will trade with him in dire straits, and wrath gets rid of him the turn after so youre pretty much guaranteed to only get one swing in. I think random burn spell X in this match is more relevant as it doesnt become less effective with hussar on the board and it goes over the top of chump blocking angel. Also some lists are now playing calciderm, which is an absolute house against us and they can play him turn 3 with help of a signets and bounce lands.
Dralnu, which isnt really playing the dralnu anymore
To be honest Im curious to see how the deck evolves now that GP strausborgh is over and done with. Teachings based control put 20 players on to day 2, a lot of whom were splashing white. Granted this was a block gp, I think it does provide some insight on where the archetype is headed for all intents and purposes Ill use that as my model. Its been my experience playing the game that control players are extremely hesitant to counter burn spells. Most falling victim to the, "its only a few damage right now, not a major threat" mindset. Also something to note is all of their removal murders our whole team sans the solifuge (if hes in the deck). So my contention is, on turn 4 when you want to cast your solifuge so you can hope it might hit home without hitting an enormous aeon chronicler, odds are they are going to have some sort of countermagic for it, whereas I said before I think you are more likely to sneak a burn spell in when they tap themselves down. Essentially my argument comes down to they will eventually be able to block the solifuge whereas never will they be able to chump block a burn spell.
UR Tron
In this match I would suffice to say that the solifuge is better. Their only out to him is wildfire, otherwise the remainder of their removal is all targeted until game 2, and they run few creatures so the odds he gets in more than once are greater making him in this case more efficient than a burn spell.
Solar Flare
Again solar flare stands a better chance of a finding a court hussar than you do a solifuge if not solely because of compulsive research. Then comes the issue of the reanimated fat, if its akroma, the burn spell goes over her head, whereas solifuged gets crushed. Angel of destruction blocks the spider all day, Skeletal Vamp chumps and regens, and the lists running Hakkon have no issue throwing him in the way to block your spider, and have 4 mana deal 1 dmg.
Pickles
I think this match depends on your opponents decision to play will bender or not. If he has a higher count of willbender burn spells are slightly more risky. However, they also have fathom seer which will soak up the majority of the solifuges damage. Personally I would rather the burn spell again though to disrupt their morphs.
If theres another match youd like to look at Id be happy to, 4 out 5 match ups where Id rather cast a burn spell though was more than enough convincing for me.
Ive tested my list quite a bit and not many times have really been like, ohh gosh I could really use a demonfire right now. Ive never much cared for X damage spells in decks with such a low curve. Recursive guys are going to be an issue, but as is the case with nether traitor or stinkweed, we can easily outrace their beats regardless. Ive never aimed any burn spell at stinkweed, mainly because outside the yard hes a 1/2 with a basilisk effect. I want to keep him out of the yard and on the table because with such a high concentration of burn spells, his 1 pt of damage a turn will almost never be enough to race me. Nether Traitor, I will also take the 1 dmg beats and rather play an efficient spell than playing one that isnt very synergistic with this deck. Against anything with countermagic, I dont really think we need an ace in the whole against them, typically we can beat them through play of early aggro threats and then well timed burn spells thereafter, the need for an uncounterable dmg spell isnt all that in high demand.
Gruul and Zoo do undoubtedly. Against UG aggro Id prefer to have all 8, in the mirror Id prefer to have all 8, against boros Id def want all 8, against dredge I like all 8 for their discard outlets, mono black aggro Ill take all 8, mono green especially the haste variants with groundbreaker and uktabi drake, otherwise you can pretty much rest assured llanowars and birds arent accelerating and scryb ranger is hanging around very long. Keep in mind too I am also running 4 Lightning helix in addition to 4 rift bolt and 3 hammer, so 3 toughness guys arent going to be an issue. However in all of the other situations I listed, id rather shock the small aggro guy and send the 3 dmg burn spell at the dome.
The charge is just awful, test it a bit and Im sure you will agree.
as is the problem with cop: red, the same can be said for trickbind. If you play any way to cast blue spells, youre getting gigadrowsed before they go off. Therefor trickbind is irrelevant to them on their turn. Also because you cant stack the cop red effect against damage that has yet to happen , cop: red isnt the best answer either, especially as it also falls victim to repeal.
A sligh decklist is more noteable for its commitment to mana curve consistency than it is for having a 20/20/20 land to spell to guy ratio.
For example;
here is Paul Slighs first decklist that started the archetype off;
4 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Dwarven Ruins
13 Mountain
23 land
2 Dragon Whelp
2 Brothers of Fire
2 Orcish Artillery
2 Orcish Cannoneers
4 Ironclaw Orcs
3 Dwarven Lieutenant
2 Orcish Librarian
4 Brass Man
2 Dwarven Trader
2 Goblins of the Flarg
25 creatures
1 Black Vise
1 Shatter
1 Detonate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
1 Fireball
1 Immolation
13 other spells
1 Shatter
1 Detonate
1 Fireball
1 Meekstone
1 Zuran Orb
3 Active Volcano
2 Serrated Arrows
1 An-Zerrin Ruins
4 Manabarbs
15 sideboard cards
Then tempest came out and added a bit more to the archetype, as is illustrated by Dave Price;
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
20 land
4 Canyon Wildcat
4 Fireslinger
4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Conscripts
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg Raider
2 Rathi Dragon
26 creatures
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Giant Strength
4 Kindle
2 Scalding Tongs
14 other spells
1 Apocalypse
2 Jinxed Idol
1 Rathi Dragon
2 Scalding Tongs
4 Shatter
4 Stone Rain
1 Torture Chamber
15 sideboard cards
and then Alex Shvartsman ran this is 2000, in my opinion slighs proverbial last stand where the arhcetype took more of a turn towards what we now know as Red Deck Wins.
3 Ghitu Encampment
17 Mountain
4 Wasteland
24 land
3 Ball Lightning
4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Viashino Sandstalker
14 creatures
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Fireblast
3 Hammer of Bogardan
4 Incinerate
3 Price of Progress
4 Shock
22 other spells
3 Anarchy
4 Keldon Vandals
1 Price of Progress
4 Pyroblast
3 Spellshock
15 sideboard cards
So as you can see, more often than not even sligh builds do not conform to the equal thirds theory, I think that to be more of an magic myth.
Well thats enough history for the day. Onto your list.
No ruskala I think is a grievous error. The guy has one me many martches and id never thought id say a 1/1 was a house, but he does screw with control players quite a lot. I think he definitely makes the cut over raging goblin. If your opponent casts court hussar or wall of roots its nice to know your 1 drop isnt now totally useless.
I really didnt like solifuge. Odds are you tap out turn 4 to play him, you have no mana left to remove blockers unless you have already cast seal of fire so you swing and he runs over some 1/1 chump blocker netting 3 damage, which could just be achieved for less mana, even eot with something like ghostfire. For all intents and purposes the spider is an over costed burn spell.
I also dont think I would play this deck without the 8 1cc 2dmg burn spells shock and seal of fire. Having 8 spells like this gives you a firm advantage in the aggro matches.
Pyroclasm in the board has the potential to kill your team of men off the board just the same as it would an opponent swarm of weenies. I dont think its synergistic with this deck, especially because most aggro decks it would effect can in fact be raced with burn if you now the correct targets to hit.