I'm going to try out a few different werewolf builds going forward. Obviously the typical builds aren't exactly 'getting the job done' and maybe an unconventional build can work. Its at least worth a try - if anything, it'll be something fun to do.
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Oct 6, 2016I understand that Werewolves may not be Tier 1 material but my Mono Green deck has been winning very often for me and I enjoy playing with it.Posted in: Standard Archives
I get that Recruiter "is good" but there have been very few times where I've used his ability and he's been quite underwhelming for me personally. Maybe that is just due to how my deck plays.
Is there a midrange list that may work well that you have in mind? I'm always open to trying out something new in Werewolves.
Oct 6, 2016Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from BbearZ »You want to curve out with an aggro deck?
No, I want to go mid- to late-game and move away from aggro.
I'd prefer to hit Ulvenwald Captive on T2 to ramp to the more expensive wolves.
Oct 5, 2016Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from Trigunner »
This is the biggest problem I think. We just have only that many cards to work with, and a lot of them feel weak compared to what other decks have? Not sure, as I couldn't really test against other creature decks so far.Quote from pbharris3 »"Synergy is just not as strong as pure value"
I think the advantage we have are the combat tricks of Howlpack Ressurgence and Spirit of the Hunt, and now probably Blossoming Defense.
I agree with you - the best thing Werewolves have going for them that other decks do not is probably the Flash Enchantment (Howlpack Resurgence) and Flash Creatures (Spirit of the Hunt and Pack Guardian).
Quote from Trigunner »
That's the big question, is an aggro or a midrange version better? To answer this we need to test more but also have to look at how the metagame develops.Quote from pbharris3 »
"Isn't aggro enough but also isn't mid-range enough" - I mostly agree. Should we try to be more aggressive or more mid-range? I feel like Werewolves has more mid-range potential
As it has been in the past and as it is now, Aggro decks really shine in the beginning of a new meta. This may be why my Mono Green version had been doing so well - it leans on the aggressive side. Last night I played against a few Control decks that were able to handle my early aggression and come out on top (granted I did win a few of the games). One was a UW Control deck and the other was RW Control. I think that both of these could've been beaten if I had some Blossoming Defenses when they found removal (both decks ran Stasis Snare and even a Natural State could've done the job). The UW deck seemed more annoying because he basically played Draw-Go and held up counterspells and removal for every play that I made. When I thought he was out of gas he flashed in Torrential Gearhulk during my attack, re-cast a Skywhaler's Shot for free, and blocked my other attacker for the ultimate blowout. The RW deck was just able to stabilize before Turn 4 then chained Gideon into Nahiri into Chandra. There was not much I could do after.
If aggro keeps getting stonewalled then it may be time to switch to a more midrange build. I think Werewolves are prepared for longer games - we have anthems with Resurgence, we can pay for Eldrazi Horror flips as we build up more mana, and we don't mind taking more turns (we can always pass to get a flip). The long game becomes a problem when opponents play cards of pure value (like Tireless Tracker) because we know where we stand in the fight of "Synergy vs. Value". I would try to stay away from the "flip our Eldrazi Horrors as soon as possible" plan and just have those abilities in mind as "bonuses" as we go longer into the match.
I was thinking starting roughly with something like:
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards 4 Ulvenwald Captive
4 Moonlight Hunt
4 Howlpack Resurgence
4 Spirit of the Hunt
4 Pack Guardian
3 Arlinn Kord
3 Vildin-Pack Outcast
2 Assembled Alphas
8 Other Cards
I think Duskwatch Recruiter is a great value card but I worry that it may hold us at too low of a curve. Same with Lambholt Pacifist. I feel Geier Reach Bandit influences us to put a bigger importance on flipping our wolves and also asks for a more aggressive strategy. Planeswalkers add immediate as well as long term value and Arlinn fits the theme. I've always been a fan of Vildin-Pack Outcast so I threw him in. He can punish chump-blocking with his +1/-1 ability and if we flip him, his Firebreathing can possibly become unstoppable. If we can stick an Assembled Alphas we can essentially get extra-first strike and a Lightning Bolt to the opponents face, both on offense and defense. Maybe its too expensive and not a realistic include but it seems to fit the theme.
Thoughts? Maybe its not a fantastic starting place but hopefully we'll at least get some good discussion
Oct 3, 2016I was recently reading a post in the Competitive Magic subreddit (reddit.com/r/spikes) where someone asked "What is the issue with RG Werewolves in Standard?". The question garnered a few responses and here's a summary of what people had to say:Posted in: Standard Archives
- "Lacks removal" - I feel like this is not necessarily true. If you run red, you can have access to all the same burn spells most decks run. Maybe they were addressing Moonlight Hunt directly - yes, this is good removal but if you don't have any wolves on board then it basically does nothing. Hunt is very conditional when you stand it beside something like Murder
- "Lacks resiliency" - Sure, I can agree with this. If you load your board and then get hit with a Fumigate, you're probably going to be left in pretty bad shape more times than not. I think that is generally a weakness of any aggro deck. Hopefully having a Pack Guardian in hand at the end of an opponent's turn can help fix this weakness for werewolves. I think Kaladesh has made aggro decks more resilient with the addition of Vehicles. They're essentially creatures that are immune to almost all Sorcery speed creature removal. Incorporating Vehicles could enhance the resiliency of Werewolves in the new Standard (I'm not a fan though. Yes, I know they're strong but I just don't like the concept of 'driving cars and boats' in Magic - especially in a werewolf synergy based deck)
- "Weak to Reflector Mage" - I think this is true if you build a deck heavily reliant around the flip-side of werewolves. On the plus side, if a flipped werewolf is bounced by Reflector Mage you are still able to play it on your next turn -- only the back-side's name is affected by the Mage's ability.
- "Synergy is just not as strong as pure value" - Sadly, I completely agree with this. Always Watching in any deck is arguably stronger than Howlpack Resurgence in a Werewolf deck. Something like Tireless Tracker by itself can generate more value on its own than just about any two werewolf cards we have put together. A Lambholt Pacifist on Turn 2 into a Howlpack Resurgence on Turn 3 could let you hit for 4 Trample damage every turn but a deck with Smuggler's Copter can hit for 3 in the air and help filter a player's hand and deck. Sure, those are Rare cards and ones like Resurgence and Pacifist are Uncommon, but its a bit disappointing that one card can easily provide more value than two put together - even two with very specific synergy.
- "Isn't aggro enough but also isn't mid-range enough" - I mostly agree. Should we try to be more aggressive or more mid-range? I feel like Werewolves has more mid-range potential
- "Falls behind easily and struggles to come back" - I think this is where CoCo picked up the slack when it was still legal. We could easily add two creatures to the board at Instant speed. I can't think of anything that will take over that role now.
- "Werewolves needed a print/reprint of..."
- "...another anthem like Mayor of Avabruck" - I could see this helping to fix the current Value > Synergy 'issue'. I considered splashing White for Always Watching but that's probably not the best idea - double White is hard to splash for.
- "...more creatures to trigger off of ETB + Flipping like Huntmaster of the Fells" - This could've actually made Transformations a big threat rather than a minor inconvenience. Like one user said: "Werewolves should be a deck where your opponent is trying to decide if casting a second spell helps them by weakening your creatures or hinders them with transform triggers"
So, I think if we can tackle the issues above, we could see a fairly competitive showing from Werewolves. I think some of the concerns go a bit beyond deckbuilding (like general Value > Tribal Synergy).
Any ideas? What are your thoughts on "the issue with RG Werewolves in Standard" ?
Sep 30, 2016I think the meta could end up good for Werewolves - there's the potential for decks to run lots of servo/thopter chump blockers and we can get through them with Trample from Howlpack Resurgence. There's also lots of combo-ish or delirium decks that are too busy trying to sculpt their hands/graveyards to do much about early and fast aggression. However, I can see this changing up since Smuggler's Copter is such a big player. I think people are going to try to build decks with that card in mind going forward.Posted in: Standard Archives
I don't dislike Ulvenwald Captive but I've just felt like I don't necessarily need him around. He's obviously not a great aggressive creature and my deck usually doesn't get to see 6-7 lands to flip him. A turn 3 Arlinn does sound very appealing though.
I don't really like the Waxing Moon all that much either but I've kept it because there are a few times where I've used it as a combat trick - most of the time on Kessig Prowlers to get a good trade during combat. Definitely not a card that I keep hoping to draw into.
I've considered adding an extra land when I seem to start getting bad opening draws but the deck can run completely fine on just 3 lands or so since the mana curve only really tops out with 4 cards at 4 mana (there is one 5-drop butI don't really expect to draw him much).
Recently I have been testing out some changes to my deck. I dropped the Shrill Howlers, a Silverfur Partisan, and the Prey Upons and added in Neglected Heirloom and mainboarded the Vines of the Recluse. The cards I cut always seemed to be cards that were always stuck in my hand throughout most games. I wanted to try Heirloom (was pleasantly surprised) and I liked how Vines of the Recluse was able to more than pull its own weight by acting as a combat trick, a pump spell to dodge burn spells, a reach enabler for blocks, and a way to surprise block an opponent's attacker when our guys are tapped down. I've always liked Prey Upon but always seemed to have smaller creatures than the opponent - I may take out the Waxing Moons and try to put it back in since Heirloom does a good job beefing up our werewolves. There have been quite a few times where I've ended up with a 7/7 first striking Lambholt Pacifist going into on Turn 4
Sep 29, 2016I think SO much of that deck changes with the loss of Collected Company . This was a deck where Geier Reach Bandit (a creature I'm not too fond of now) was an all-star. You could easily pass the turn, have her flip, and just CoCo in two werewolves and they get a free flip as well. Even if you don't have a Bandit, simply getting 2 extra creatures coming in on your opponent's turn is amazing. If you CoCo at their end step then you've essentially played two Haste creatures at the start of your turn for free. And Atarka's Command just built on that. To the opponent, two surprising attackers is a huge problem (even more so if they came in flipped) and now you're pumping your team and doing 3 straight to the face. Even if you only have 3 Village Messengers (probably the worst creature in the deck) you're going at the opponent with essentially 10 damage.Posted in: Standard Archives
CoCo Werewolves is an extremely fast and aggressive build compared to what we've got to work with now. The old deck focused on cheating in and going wide with small-to-medium creatures quickly and at instant speed. It seems to me that the new deck will have to rely on pumping up mid-sized creatures and using combat tricks and evasion (mainly trample and/or double strike) to slowly whittle down the opponent. I think "slowly" is a relative term here - we're still going to want to be aggressive but there will need to be times where we pass the turn or pay large amounts of mana to flip our werewolves/horrors instead of playing more creatures.
I'm not sure where to go from here. I get the feeling that Green is the stronger color for Werewolves - Howlpack Resurgence, Moonlight Hunt, Waxing Moon, and Spirit of the Hunt are about the only cards that 'reward' a deck for having more wolves. Hence why I've stayed Mono Green. Red does seem to have the stronger creatures (power-wise) though and obviously that allows you to kill faster.
Sep 28, 2016Just played a quick game online with your deck. Maybe it was the match-up but I was absolutely blown out by the UW tempo deck I played. Lots of Quellers, Reflector Mages, Stitched Manglers, Fairgrounds Warden, and flicker effects. That kind of deck is very strong against us. If we're trying to flip Bandit, they'll just Reflector Mage it. If we flip a Werewolf Horror, they'll just flicker it.Posted in: Standard Archives
I really wanted some removal in the main deck. I could've gotten some of my creatures back from Queller and Warden but I had no way to remove them. I like having Moonlight Hunt in the main deck but honestly, even that wouldn't have helped me much in the last match-up. Maybe consider something like Harnessed Lightning in the sideboard for times like these.
I'm kind of 50/50 on Neglected Heirloom. This standard is seeing TONS of artifacts and with it comes artifact-hate. I can see the possibility of attacking with an equipped werewolf only to have the Blade destroyed at instant speed and leaving the opponent with an advantageous block. Maybe Werewolves decks aren't worth siding in a few artifact-hate spells against but I wouldn't be surprised if we see more decks main-boarding those types of cards. On the other hand, I think that the Heirloom is great for a Werewolf deck. On turns where you don't want to play spells, you can just use your turn to Equip it before attacks and then re-Equip it to a defending creature after attacks. That way you're doing something other than drawing and passing and the turn doesn't feel so 'wasted'.
As for sideboard advice - I would throw in lots of artifact hate (Natural State, Appetite for the Unnatural) and possibly some spells to defend against fliers (Plummet, Clip Wings, Take Down). I haven't tried it in my deck yet but I think Blossoming Defense is probably the best all-around card for dealing with other decks. Against other aggro you should be able to pump your guys for favorable trades. Against control you should be able to blank their removal by giving hexproof. I'd consider sideboarding a 4th copy or even running the full playset in the deck.
Sep 26, 2016Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from realinjure »Which cards would you consider to add in Werewolf deck?
A lot of those would be decent sideboard options - only a few I could see running in your main deck.
Of the ones you listed:
- Appetite for the Unnatural - Instant speed artifact hate. Definitely sideboard material
- Blossoming Defense - I could see this making the main deck. Great pump and protection
- Commencement of Festivities - Not really a fan. We're usually the aggressive ones
- Larger than Life - Could be good. I don't prefer Sorcery speed tricks though
- Nature's Way - Could be good but Moonlight Hunt has higher damage potential for when there are bigger creatures to remove. You could reduce the number of Hunts but I wouldn't totally cut it.
- Ornamental Courage - Good combat trick but I prefer Vines of the Recluse because it gives Reach
- Take Down - I haven't seen many 1/1 flying thopters in standard yet but this could be good if that changes. 4 damage for 1 mana is sweet too - bye bye Avacyn, Spell Queller, Olivia, Gisela, Wretched Gryff, etc. I'd definitely sideboard this if flying becomes more prevalent.
- Chandra's Pyrohelix - Decent if servos/thopters become a nuisance but you may be better off with Dual Shot in that case
- Demolish - Green usually has better artifact hate than Red.
- Harnessed Lightning - Good Lightning Strike. Becomes much stronger in an energy-based deck though
- Renegade Tactics - Ok if you're in a board stall but I could see Magmatic Chasm being better since it lets your whole board get in. Tactics is better if you're up against fliers but it also only helps get one attacker through.
- Voltaic Brawler - Already one of the stronger 2-drops at 3/2 but it also keeps getting bigger and bigger. Better in an energy-based deck for obvious reasons. I prefer sticking to the Werewolf theme (especially if you run cards like Howlpack Resurgence and Spirit of the Hunt) but he can be a great beater.
- Aether Hub - Great for making sure you can hit your mana right. Just remember, it has limited uses. I wouldn't rely on it all that much because of that
Quote from realinjure »
I'm also looking for some possible replacements for the Silverfur Partisans in my list ... . Maybe replace them for Village Messengers?
I always saw Silverfur Partisan as a 'removal deterrent' - opponent takes out your 2/2, you get another one in its place. If your deck was using him for this same reason, I'd consider running Blossoming Defense instead. Blossoming Defense also blanks removal but unlike Partisan you get to keep your original creature instead of just getting some vanilla 2/2 wolf. The upside to Partisan over Defense is that you can have a creature on board against an opponent that may be light on removal instead of being stuck with a one-time +2/+2 spell in your hand.
If you're looking to be more aggressive then I could see you trading him out for Village Messenger. Partisan can be slow at 3 mana and Messenger can be awesome if you are able to play it turn 1. The downside to Messenger is that it is usually an awful draw late-game. By then the opponent is probably well prepared to deal with a mere 1/1.
- Appetite for the Unnatural - Instant speed artifact hate. Definitely sideboard material
Sep 26, 2016Just played a couple quick games with it. I think you really want Fiery Tempers in the list. There's a lot of aggro out there - particularly RW decks running stuff like Smuggler's Copter. Maybe consider switching the numbers for the Cathartic Reunion and Tormenting Voice - I ran into a few times where I couldn't afford to discard 2. Either I didn't have 2 in hand or really didn't want to pitch something important.Posted in: Standard Archives
Neat deck list - I'll keep trying to test it out!
Sep 24, 2016What about casting a Conduit of Ruin and using its ability in order to 'tutor' before activating Aetherworks Marvel? Could just be unnecessary if you're generating enough energy to activate the Marvel multiple times per game...Posted in: Standard Archives
Sep 24, 2016Yea, I follow you there. I just think there's a lot of effort in trying to flip Geier Reach Bandit and that's why I'm not as big a fan of her as most people are. She's a bit of a contradiction -- a hasty/aggro creature that rewards you for abstaining from playing more cards/creatures. Majority of the time we won't even have access to her ability until Turn 5:Posted in: Standard Archives
Turn 3: Play Geier Reach Bandit
Turn 4: Pass the turn
Turn 5: Play a Werewolf/Horror (if Bandit is still on board and flipped)
Sure she can be flipped going in to Turn 4 if the opponent has no play, but how many decks do you know of that have no spells to cast on their Turn 3 or 4? Waiting two turns also makes her very susceptible to removal. And by Turn 5 or 6 opponents usually have enough mana to start easily casting two spells per turn and flipping her back.
I'd really love for the deck's gameplan to work out but I'm a bit skeptical in relying on Geier Reach Bandit//Vildin-Pack Alpha to get it done.
Maybe there is a way we can rely on Ulvenwald Captive and Conduit of Storms to generate enough mana that we can easily pay for the flips? Or have enough mana in one turn to cast a Waxing Moon on Bandit before dropping a big Werewolf Horror (or two) like Smoldering Werewolf or Vildin-Pack Outcast?
Sep 24, 2016Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from Trivmvirate »I don't think you want to go too low to the ground as at that point, having a more midrange deck is often still better and less vulnerable
I agree with you here. A couple of opponent's Galvanic Bombardments could really ruin a low-to-the-ground strategy like the one above.
Sep 23, 2016Yes, the Werewolf Horrors are amazing! Vildin-Pack Outcast might be my favorite. By the time you can flip it into Dronepack Kindred you can have it swinging in for at least a 10/7 Trampler.Posted in: Standard Archives
The problem I seem to run into with Werewolves is that you want to be aggressive most of the time but they also require you to do nothing on your turn in order to transform them. Seems kind of counter-intuitive. It works out fine with Green because you have the the instant-speed Spirit Wolves but they require a bigger commitment to Green and the more powerful Werewolves are usually the Red ones.
Maybe instead of trying to do a 3-color manabase, we could just throw in a bunch of mana rocks -- Terrarion, Prophetic Prism, Corrupted Grafstone, Cryptolith Fragment, and/or Cultivator's Caravan ? And if worst comes to worst and we have tons of spare mana, we can just flip the wolves for the full price..?
[Edit: I just remembered Terrarion and Prism don't exactly produce more mana, they just fix it. But they do help us draw]
A bit of a stretch, but if you want add the Blue you can use the Waxing Moon + Insidious Will combo to flip 2 werewolves at once. Its very possible but requires two cards and 6 mana - 1 of which must be green and 2 of which must be blue
Sep 23, 2016pbharris3 posted a message on Eldritch Evolution. Please let's do something with this card in Standard.Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from DarklingScribe »The problem with World Breaker and Bruna, the Fading Light in this kind of deck is that their abilities are on-cast triggers, not ETB triggers. Ulamog has the same problem, but I think he's much better here than Bruna and World Breaker since he presents a 2 to 3 turn clock and is indestructible which will protect him from "destroy" based removal spells.
Quote from Ronnie328 »Madnessing the twins is a great idea. I looked at World Breaker, but his ability is when cast, so I didn't include him.
Holy cow, I can't believe I forgot it was on cast
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