If you haven't already, check out the Mono Green Control Discord Channel: Link Here
We're keeping the discussion very much alive (unfortunately just not as much on MTGSalvation )
Personally, I like the versions running Ohran Viper and Nissa, Vastwood Seer that give us plenty of new early game options. Viper can keep us filling our hand with cards and can even come in clutch by killing off a bigger threat. Nissa is good for keeping the lands coming in as we set up our gameplan. And once we have plenty of lands/mana she turns into a card draw engine and a way to potentially close out the game.
Seems like a lot of people are dropping the Plow Unders for more impactful options. I know Michael Neilson (and some others) is heavily interested in the new Karn that was spoiled and going more in the direction of Ancient Stirrings and some colorless/artifact payoffs
Root Maze is really nice against opponent playing lots of fetch/shocks. Hell, even just a few fetch/shocks. Fetching is essentially delayed two turns -- one to wait for the fetchland to untap and another to wait for the fetched land to untap. Also nice when bouncing lands back with Plow Under and Primal Command since they can't immediately get value with the land once its re-drawn. All that being said, its almost useless if not in our hand for the first few turns of the game. I sort of have the same opinion with Trinisphere, although sometimes having multiples of Trini is good in case an opponent tries to remove the first copy from the battlefield. I thought about maybe putting a list together that could have ways to get rid of multiples like Smuggler's Copter or Azor's Gateway.
Personally, I don't think you need BOTH speed and slowing an opponent down because at some point you need actual payoffs/threats in the deck and adding more 'setup' seems like it'll dilute the deck. I mean, a lot of times even now it feels like there's always a decent chance we draw the 'wrong half of our deck'. And frankly, a lot of decks can play through Spreading Seas, Sea's Claim, and even Blood Moon already and I think you're better off taking lands off the table completely than trying to depend on mana screw.
If you intend on splashing Blue, I don't think you want to run Root Maze. I'd imagine whatever iteration you'd want to build would have some amount of fetches and duals like Misty Rainforest and Breeding Pool and as we've spoken about above, Maze significantly punishes fetching.
Meh, I feel like Choke is just redundant. We're already geared to take an opponent off lands and it just seems like siding this in is just too much. I think I'd rather have something like Carnage Tyrant to come in against control. Worst case scenario, even getting Tyrant Cryptic Command-tapped every start of Combat can open up areas where we can punish them for tapping out.
Already running azusa and it seems like a nice complimentary package to eternal command.
You could take it a step further with that new card that hits a/e and let's you play an additional land for 1g... Along with black disruption to get you there.
Gaining life is nice but a lot of the time it just postpones the inevitable unless you can pose a threat in the meantime. I also really don't see what Dark Heart of the Wood really adds as an endgame/wincon. It seems to me like something better for lifegain would be things like Thragtusk or Kitchen Finks. These are not only threats but are rather resilient and can also be tutored with Primal Command(which also gains life).
I think if you're looking for a decklist with Ramunap Excavator and Azusa, Lost but Seeking, I think you'd be wanting to loop Ghost Quarters, Field of Ruins, and/or Tectonic Edges. Unfortunately, stacking a deck with a lot of non-Forests is going to make it harder to get consistent use out of Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl and I think you'd want cards like Tireless Tracker that take advantage of recurring lands but I think thats wandering into the territory of making a totally different deck a la GW 'Value Town'
I mean, I like the idea of Pulse but I have a feeling its just too slow -- at least as a mainboard card. The lifegain is great against stuff like Burn and can help gain enough time to stabilize. If you decide to run it, you may also want to run Fetches so you have something else to get back from the 'yard.
Lately I've been thinking back on something that was said earlier in the thread: Our ultimate goal should be to get to 4/5 mana as quickly as possible so we can immediately start taking opponents off lands. Obviously the nuts is going T2 Acid-Moss but if we aren't hitting 4 mana on Turn 2 I think we need to consider our Plan B to be setting up a 5 mana play on Turn 3. Trinisphere is a good card for our deck but sometimes dropping it T2 feels so sub-optimal. Yes, if you're on the play T2 Trini is very painful for the opponent and buys us a free turn. But if we're on the draw many times its not quite not enough to stop an opponent from having the mana for their next play. And afterwards it feels like we've thrown away our turn and aren't any closer to setting up our lock. I've been thinking we may want another 3-drop to play either beside Trinisphere or in place of it so we can have an alternative play on T2 if we don't get 4 mana, don't have Trini, or if Trini isn't a good turn 2 play.
Some cards I've been thinking about:
Beneath the Sands -- A little more expensive ramp than stuff like Rampant Growth but its still mostly a Turn 2 play for our deck. Not exactly a dead card in the late game like a lot of ramp spells (typical issue for decks like us) because we can cycle it away.
Edge of Autumn -- Very similar to BtS. Still playable T2 if our T1 dork gets taken out early. Cycling it away is basically free as long as we're in a position where we have plenty of lands/mana. Downsides are that it can only really be played for lands on the first 4/5 turns and that sacrificing a land could possibly come back to bite us if we're not careful.
Heartbeat of Spring -- Dropping this on T2 can potentially get us 6+ mana on T3 and 8+ mana on T4 as long as we're hitting land drops and/or have an Arbor Elf out. That's close to Tron status and it essentially catapults us into our late-game strategy. Pretty huge downside in that the opponent gets the effect too.
Vernal Bloom (Not a T2/3-CMC play but at least an honorable mention in my eyes) -- I would love for this to fit into the deck but I think it just doesn't have a good slot in our curve. We're getting the same upside as Heartbeat but opponents are less likely to benefit. There are 5 Forests listed in the top 50 of MTGTop8's list of most played lands in Modern
Extraplanar Lens -- Similar to the two above but also applies to a specific land name and almost all of our lands are basic Forests. Downsides are that we're sacrificing a land and its an artifact that can catch some hate from cards like Kolaghan's Command, Nature's Claim, Abrade, and others that are seeing play because of Hollow One
Overgrowth -- I don't think I like adding in more Sprawl effects (since they become almost useless drawn in the late game) but if we're counting on having at least 3 mana on Turn 2 then Overgrowth probably nets us more mana than adding Fertile Ground.
Awakening Zone -- Pumping out free one-use mana dorks/chump blockers could be decent
...and many others. These are just what I thought seemed most viable.
Anyway, I've just felt like T2/3 mana is a common place for us to potentially stumble in the early game and had been thinking of ways that we could potentially shore up any spots in the deck where we're vulnerable or too slow. If we do go the route with one/some of the cards above, I am a bit concerned about flooding our draws with too much ramp. Fortunately, I think we have the ability to go somewhat thin on threats thanks to Primal Command. The ability to search for any creature means we can sort of play a toolbox-style threat package and pick and choose what we need based on our match-ups. It may just be that we need to figure out a good ratio of Ramp vs. Gameplan cards.
Happy to hear your thoughts. Lets keep this thread active!
Has Land Destruction, Eternal-Command lock, and my personal favorite version during testing has Root Maze in the main. You can find my post with the decklist here.
MGC plays a lot like Ponza but many of us have decided to stay mono-green for a number of reasons including playstyle, budget, consistency, and/or simply just to pay homage to the original decklist.
For those who aren't aware, someone on r/ModernMagic subreddit asked about the current state of Mono Green Control. Neilson chimed in and mentioned that he plans on taking his most recent build to his regionals on June 2nd. Hopefully we'll get an update soon afterwards.
Another interesting note -- Neilson brought up trying out Silent Arbiter, a card I don't think anyone here has considered yet. Could be a good blocker able to slow down some of the more aggressive decks. KCommand is a popular card though and an easy way to kill Arbiter.
I'm using a bunch of Obstinate Baloths in the sideboard to bring in against some of these more aggressive decks. I'll usually substitute out a bunch of LD spells (and Root Maze in my build) since they don't do as well punishing the decks that only need a few lands. I haven't really played much against Hollow One but it seems like Grafdigger's Cage could help against the recursion aspect of their deck. Seems like we have main deck cards that can already answer the actual Hollow Ones like Reclaiming Vines and Acidic Slime. But if they get enough HOs/Flameblade Adepts out early we may just be too slow. Baloth seems like a decent sideboard card against them too. He gains life to counteract the aggression, is a 4/4 to trade with Hollow One, and is basically cast for free if you get hit with a Burning Inquiry
Curious to hear what you're working on. Sounds like it could be something with Hardened Scales perhaps...? Nature's Way seems like it would be strictly better than Rabid Bite for your new brew. Maybe give that a try.
I think going towards a Devotion-centric deck doesn't really allow for many LD spells/resource denial, which is my personal favorite aspect of the deck. Since you'd need permanents to stay on the battlefield in order to increase the Devotion count you'd probably want more creatures, planeswalkers, and/or enchantments rather than Instants or Sorceries. Seems like with this style you'd also be leaning more towards a Ramp deck of sorts rather than a Control deck. Either way, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how you'd morph the deck to make it a more Devotion-based Control style.
It seems like there is a lot of Aggro in the current meta. Just a quick look at MTGGoldfish's Metagame page, it shows that Humans, Affinity, and BR Hollow One are the three top decks percentage-wise. MTGTop8 has Aggro at 53% in the last two months but it seems like that number may be a bit skewed since it has Jund and a few other Midrange decks sprinkled into the list. Even so, it looks like decks are looking to close out the game faster overall.
I think that unless we see a rise in decks that hate out Humans and Hollow One we're going to have to either shelve the deck or tune it to better deal with aggression. I'd really prefer not to ditch the deck though. Unfortunately Green has very little in terms of removal and the best we've got to work with now is Dismember and Beast Within unless we want to start incorporating some fight spells (Prey Upon, Epic Confrontation, etc.) but frankly, our creatures aren't that great for 'fighting' -- except for Acidic Slime. The other option would be branching into another color and I'm worried that if we do that, we might as well start building Ponza or GBx lists....
Something I stumbled upon that looks cool (but is most likely too janky/has too many moving parts) is Frontier Siege. On Khans we can gain up to 4 extra mana per turn. On Dragons we can turn a Hornet Queen into a tutorable sweeper. If you run Hornet Nest as an aggro roadblock, you can turn those Insects into removal too. Obviously there's the downside of only applying to flying creatures. Maybe Destructor Dragon can be thrown in as an additional Bramblecrush effect. Sounds cool but I could see this throwing off our main gameplan. Still, its fun to throw some new ideas out there
Yes, Noble is mostly a better option than Mystic. She can't chump and kill an X/1 like the other elves can but is that really a big concern? lol
If you've got them, surely make the substitution. But I don't think the Exalted trigger is worth the current ~$80 per copy price tag (at least for someone like me who is playing on a semi-budget) if you don't already own them.
I could see Wall of Roots being a decent substitution for STE if you're seeing lots of aggro like goblins. I wish Wall of Blossoms was Modern legal. Some UW Control lists run Wall of Omens so why can't we? lol
I think a huge Goyf is something we're going to have a hard time stopping early game and we may just have to stall until we get down an Acidic Slime or Hornet Queen. I think an interesting sideboard card to test out would be Hornet Nest. Its not necessarily good against decks that run removal like Path to Exile or Terminate but I could see it being helpful in match-ups with lots of creature combat or damaged based removal.
..but I keep needing more early pressure. Especially on 3 mana turns. What about Omnath, Locus of Mana? Comes down early, gets big FAST...
You want early pressure? or early defense? Control decks aren't usually built with 'early pressure' in mind. Reid Duke's old(er) article on the Mothership about control decks mentions that "Control decks are concerned with tempo only as it relates to defending themselves" as well as " All you want to do is survive, develop your mana, and generate card advantage. " I think our biggest concern is ramping into our LD spells rather than dropping threats/defense. And since there's a good chance our LD spells aren't getting any better/cheaper, our deck needs get to 4 mana faster than the opponent so we can cut them off resources. Modern is very much a Turn 4 format and if we durdle around in the early game, we can very well lose to a lot of decks.
I think the mana storage aspect would be nice but I could also see a situation where you'd float mana to go into combat and get blown out by removal, losing all your mana for your 2nd Main play for the turn. You could give it a try in your flex spot.
Something similar I had thought about: Managorger Hydra. But I'm wondering if we're just better off playing creatures that have an immediate impact as soon as they're played.
What about Field of Ruin? I know it lets them search, but modern decks run VERY few basics.
I don't think it is a terrible inclusion but remember, we want to keep our Forest count high for Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl. Karsten's math on hitting the right colors states that we should want at least 14 untapped green sources for a Turn 1 play and 20 untapped green sources for an Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl (double green) play on Turn 2.
I'm also not sure when we'd want to be activating the ability. Our typical curve is pretty mana efficient and we don't usually have 2-3 excess mana until we get into the late game.
Not sure what you mean here. That planeswalkers are a problem for us? Or that we should be running planeswalkers?
I think banking on Steel Hellkite to come down to deal with a Liliana means that you're not in a good spot against an opponent. Quite a few of us are running Bramblecrush for planeswalker removal if necessary. Primal Command can also reset a planeswalker that is dangerously close to ultimate. I think my inclusion of Treetop Village helps my deck have a little more reach if something like Liliana comes down.
WARNING: Wall of text ahead. Apologies in advance.
Any reason you guys aren't running Treetop Village? I've got 3 in the list I'm using and I've seen little downside. Yes, there have been one or two instances where I had wished to draw an untapped green source instead, but most of the time it has not impacted playing spells on curve. If anything, it's been helpful when we sometimes have those "do nothing" turns -- when we're playing just a bit off-curve and it can chip in a little bit of damage in the meantime. Or in the later game when we need to start closing out the game with attackers and have extra mana to spend.
Like Capt. Nick, I've still been a fan of Cloudthresher. We really have no way to touch smaller fliers (like Spirit Tokens) or a way to play outside of Sorcery speed to catch our opponent by surprise and 'Thresher does help a bit. I really do like having Hornet Queen in the main and I could see eventually shaving a copy of 'Thresher for The Queen. I sometimes struggle to regularly hit 7 mana though, especially against faster decks.
I've been trying out Root Maze in the main and I like it overall but I'm also a little on the fence about it. It's pretty great against most decks by punishing fetches and keeps people mana starved when we start bouncing/destroying lands and they can never make up lost ground. The downside for us is pretty minimal since we have dorks/Sprawls to sort of balance out the slowed mana production. We usually tend to build up extra lands with cards like Acid-Moss and STE too. The thing I don't really like about it is finding the right time in the game to play it. The optimal time is obviously Turn 1 when we're on the play. But at times when we're not on the play I contemplate whether or not to play a Turn 1 dork/Sprawl instead. If I play dork first, sometimes Maze gets stuck in my hand as I continue to curve out and by then it doesn't really make an impact. If I play Maze first, I risk stumbling on my own mana while the opponent slowly creeps ahead. The other obvious downside is that it isn't good in multiples. Or when in topdeck mode. It also doesn't do much to stop decks that don't rely on fetches or are mono-colored.
On no Ewit -- I don't know how I feel about that, though I will admit that sometimes 4 seems like it could be too many. I could see potentially trimming to 3 (definitely no less) in order to avoid having too many in the opening turns. Yes, putting a 2/1 into play and blanking an opponent's next draw seems underwhelming when they can just play cards from their hand but the fact of the matter is that they're not drawing more spells. And we're putting more threats/bodies into play in the meantime. Eventually their hand will get empty and they'll have to just sit and watch us play Magic while they can't. I also feel like EWit does more for us than just looping Primals too. She gets back anything from our graveyard that's been discarded or destroyed and that means opponents potentially have to burn through twice their discard or removal. EWit is about as close to Snapcaster Mage as we're going to get in green. Even if EWit is only good for Primal looping, playing multiple Primals is our own way to get card advantage/draw gas and sometimes keep our lifetotal high against more aggressive decks. If I were to cut a looping aspect of the deck, it would probably be the Stampeding Serow/Stampeding Wildebeests/Roaring Primadox before I touch Eternal Witness.
I also wanted to spitball some potential card ideas. Some may be bad, but at least we can say we've thought about it. No need to address them all but it'd be interesting to hear thoughts on anything worth testing:
Somberwald Stag/Territorial Allosaurus/Foe-Razer Regent -- Tutorable "removal" with Primal. Stag may be too fragile to survive entering the battlefield and Allosaurus' kicker may a bit to costly if we need it early. Regent may be too costly too
Channeler Initiate -- Early mana dork that can turn into a mid/late game 'threat'. 2 mana is realatively costly though. And 3/4 probably isn't strong enough.
Jadelight Ranger -- I played an earlier version with Ranger in it and liked it. Potentially a 4/3, Scry 2 for 3 mana. Not exactly a budget friendly addition though. (around $10 a pop as of now)
Mold Shambler -- I think this is run in Pauper LD decks. Maybe too puny/low-powered for Modern
Verdurous Gearhulk -- On its own its an 8/8 Trampler for 5 mana. Can also buff our 1- and 2-powered creatures and we can rinse and repeat with bounce creatures in play
Brutalizer Exarch -- A mini Primal Command on a 3/3. Repeatable with bounce
Woodland Bellower -- Tutors EWit straight onto the battlefield and leaves a 6/5 body
Pelakka Wurm -- 7/7 Trample, 7 life, draw a card. What more could you want?
Yea, no, that little bit about having mana dorks was more in response to what you were saying about how "dork removal puts us so behind" and how the original list was built with that in mind. I was speaking more in regards to using EWit to get back our more impactful creatures or whatever slots people are trying to make for creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll or Dungrove Elders. I guess I was trying to say instead of trying to blank the removal, why not just use EWit to get back whatever has been removed. Its not like we're only limited to the 4 copies in the deck since we have main-deck access to Primal Command's shuffle and grab effects. I think those creatures can be fine additions but I'd be careful not to water-down the deck for fear of removal when we're already built to be fairly resilient.
As for watered-down, I agree that Raptor combo would probably take up too many slots dedicated to our main objective. Just figured I'd keep throwing stuff out to see what sticks.
I think Sylvan Caryatid is something to try out but I don't think I'd drop all the Turn 1 ramp cards. I feel like with only Tribe Elder and Caryatid you'd risk limiting your sub-optimal draws in favor of protecting your optimal draw when you actually have it. For instance, with a 'classic' build, you can very well not have a dork on T1, find it T2, and potentially still have the 4-mana play on T3. If you miss a T2 Caryatid/Steve in a no-dork build then you never have the T3 4-mana play. Also, in the no-dork version, you'll always require 3 lands on T3 while a build with mana-elves can make it work with less. I think the lines/probabilities are pretty complex with the 'classic' build so its hard to really tell. I think at the very least I'd keep in Utopia Sprawl since it's least susceptible to common removal. I'd be interested to see how it works out for you.
I'm really enjoying exploring all these new options
I get not wanting our creatures to die to removal but doesn't Eternal Witness help to fight through those removal spells? Just EWit back our creatures and then we can even EWit back the old EWit and keep doing it over again. And if we run out of EWits in the deck, we can kamikaze them (if they've survived getting on the board) and just Primal Command to shuffle them back in and search one up. Have you guys found that this isn't enough in the way of resiliency?
I understand that our dorks will take the brunt of the removal spells but I think that was the reason the original list played the extra Elvish Mystics/Llanowar Elves (so that we're not only relying on T1 Arbor Elf) and Sakura-Tribe Elder (so that we have a T2 play if we don't have Utopia Sprawl).
Something that I've thought about that goes along with the resiliency aspect -- Deathmist Raptor/Den Protector combo. Deathmist Raptor is a relatively cheap CMC creature that can play both offense and defense for us. Den Protector is almost another Eternal Witness and can potentially get back Raptors for free if we're using the ability. She's got a bit of evasion too. The downside is that the 'combo' can require a bit of setup and can potentially be mana intensive but I also think both cards can play well on their own. Also, finding places to cut in the deck can be a hard task. Most of our lists seem pretty tight. I doubt we could spare some space.
Maybe the other guys here can correct me if I'm wrong but I wouldn't say this deck is "better" than Ponza. I would say that it does a similar thing but plays differently. It may have been in this thread (or somewhere else) where someone described Ponza as being a Tempo/Aggro deck that uses Stone Rains and Blood Moons to cut the opponent off mana for a few turns while they land Bloodbraid Elf (also good at finding more tempo cards) and Stormbreath Dragon/Inferno Titan to finish out the game. I think our deck is centered more around using land destruction to lock an opponent out of playing Magic altogether -- destroying all their lands then keeping them from drawing action by placing the lands they still have back on top of their deck with Plow Under and Primal Command lock. Ponza does have tournament results to back up it's competitiveness. But Mono Green Control did get 3rd in an 86-man IQ. That may not be very impressive or could even be just a fluke but I would hope that at the very least it means that the deck can compete against some of the Tiered decks out there.
Yes, I think that going from mono-colored to multi-colored definitely adds more to any deck simply because adding an additional color essentially gains you access to 25% of all the Modern-playable cards that you couldn't play before. Unfortunately with Fetchlands/Shocklands being in Modern, there are very few advantages that mono-colored decks have over multi-colored decks. These being:
Painless mana -- you're not taking damage from Fetches or Shocks so your life total will remain high
Consistency -- you're not having to worry if you'll have the right mana combination to cast your cards
The last point -- Budget -- is most important to a player like me and it seems like was a big component in the creation of the deck. If you look at the original list, you can buy all the cards in the main deck for about $85. Neilson's big finisher for the deck (Cloudthresher) is a 25 cent "junk rare". GR Ponza decks are going for about $750
TL;DR: No, I don't think this is better than Ponza. This deck is similar but a bit different. Yes, I think that adding Red could gain you access to more cards and make the deck more resilient if you choose to go down the multi-colored path. As for the players who want to stick with Mono Green for the (unfortunately small) list of advantages mono-colored decks provide, I think we should aim to try and leverage those advantages -- like looking at cards that require more G in their mana cost or cards that punish multi-color/fetch/non-basic lands.
Thoughts on Evolutionary Leap if we want to stay in a mono-green build?
We're keeping the discussion very much alive (unfortunately just not as much on MTGSalvation
Personally, I like the versions running Ohran Viper and Nissa, Vastwood Seer that give us plenty of new early game options. Viper can keep us filling our hand with cards and can even come in clutch by killing off a bigger threat. Nissa is good for keeping the lands coming in as we set up our gameplan. And once we have plenty of lands/mana she turns into a card draw engine and a way to potentially close out the game.
Seems like a lot of people are dropping the Plow Unders for more impactful options. I know Michael Neilson (and some others) is heavily interested in the new Karn that was spoiled and going more in the direction of Ancient Stirrings and some colorless/artifact payoffs
As I mentioned somewhere in another thread, one of the versions I've tried (and one of my favorites) runs 3 Root Maze in the main:
3 Treetop Village
4 Arbor Elf
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
1 Stampeding Wildebeests
3 Acidic Slime
2 Cloudthresher
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Bramblecrush
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1 Reclaiming Vines
3 Plow Under
4 Primal Command
Root Maze is really nice against opponent playing lots of fetch/shocks. Hell, even just a few fetch/shocks. Fetching is essentially delayed two turns -- one to wait for the fetchland to untap and another to wait for the fetched land to untap. Also nice when bouncing lands back with Plow Under and Primal Command since they can't immediately get value with the land once its re-drawn. All that being said, its almost useless if not in our hand for the first few turns of the game. I sort of have the same opinion with Trinisphere, although sometimes having multiples of Trini is good in case an opponent tries to remove the first copy from the battlefield. I thought about maybe putting a list together that could have ways to get rid of multiples like Smuggler's Copter or Azor's Gateway.
Personally, I don't think you need BOTH speed and slowing an opponent down because at some point you need actual payoffs/threats in the deck and adding more 'setup' seems like it'll dilute the deck. I mean, a lot of times even now it feels like there's always a decent chance we draw the 'wrong half of our deck'. And frankly, a lot of decks can play through Spreading Seas, Sea's Claim, and even Blood Moon already and I think you're better off taking lands off the table completely than trying to depend on mana screw.
If you intend on splashing Blue, I don't think you want to run Root Maze. I'd imagine whatever iteration you'd want to build would have some amount of fetches and duals like Misty Rainforest and Breeding Pool and as we've spoken about above, Maze significantly punishes fetching.
Meh, I feel like Choke is just redundant. We're already geared to take an opponent off lands and it just seems like siding this in is just too much. I think I'd rather have something like Carnage Tyrant to come in against control. Worst case scenario, even getting Tyrant Cryptic Command-tapped every start of Combat can open up areas where we can punish them for tapping out.
Gaining life is nice but a lot of the time it just postpones the inevitable unless you can pose a threat in the meantime. I also really don't see what Dark Heart of the Wood really adds as an endgame/wincon. It seems to me like something better for lifegain would be things like Thragtusk or Kitchen Finks. These are not only threats but are rather resilient and can also be tutored with Primal Command(which also gains life).
I think if you're looking for a decklist with Ramunap Excavator and Azusa, Lost but Seeking, I think you'd be wanting to loop Ghost Quarters, Field of Ruins, and/or Tectonic Edges. Unfortunately, stacking a deck with a lot of non-Forests is going to make it harder to get consistent use out of Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl and I think you'd want cards like Tireless Tracker that take advantage of recurring lands but I think thats wandering into the territory of making a totally different deck a la GW 'Value Town'
Lately I've been thinking back on something that was said earlier in the thread: Our ultimate goal should be to get to 4/5 mana as quickly as possible so we can immediately start taking opponents off lands. Obviously the nuts is going T2 Acid-Moss but if we aren't hitting 4 mana on Turn 2 I think we need to consider our Plan B to be setting up a 5 mana play on Turn 3. Trinisphere is a good card for our deck but sometimes dropping it T2 feels so sub-optimal. Yes, if you're on the play T2 Trini is very painful for the opponent and buys us a free turn. But if we're on the draw many times its not quite not enough to stop an opponent from having the mana for their next play. And afterwards it feels like we've thrown away our turn and aren't any closer to setting up our lock. I've been thinking we may want another 3-drop to play either beside Trinisphere or in place of it so we can have an alternative play on T2 if we don't get 4 mana, don't have Trini, or if Trini isn't a good turn 2 play.
Some cards I've been thinking about:
Anyway, I've just felt like T2/3 mana is a common place for us to potentially stumble in the early game and had been thinking of ways that we could potentially shore up any spots in the deck where we're vulnerable or too slow. If we do go the route with one/some of the cards above, I am a bit concerned about flooding our draws with too much ramp. Fortunately, I think we have the ability to go somewhat thin on threats thanks to Primal Command. The ability to search for any creature means we can sort of play a toolbox-style threat package and pick and choose what we need based on our match-ups. It may just be that we need to figure out a good ratio of Ramp vs. Gameplan cards.
Happy to hear your thoughts. Lets keep this thread active!
Has Land Destruction, Eternal-Command lock, and my personal favorite version during testing has Root Maze in the main. You can find my post with the decklist here.
MGC plays a lot like Ponza but many of us have decided to stay mono-green for a number of reasons including playstyle, budget, consistency, and/or simply just to pay homage to the original decklist.
Another interesting note -- Neilson brought up trying out Silent Arbiter, a card I don't think anyone here has considered yet. Could be a good blocker able to slow down some of the more aggressive decks. KCommand is a popular card though and an easy way to kill Arbiter.
Curious to hear what you're working on. Sounds like it could be something with Hardened Scales perhaps...? Nature's Way seems like it would be strictly better than Rabid Bite for your new brew. Maybe give that a try.
I think going towards a Devotion-centric deck doesn't really allow for many LD spells/resource denial, which is my personal favorite aspect of the deck. Since you'd need permanents to stay on the battlefield in order to increase the Devotion count you'd probably want more creatures, planeswalkers, and/or enchantments rather than Instants or Sorceries. Seems like with this style you'd also be leaning more towards a Ramp deck of sorts rather than a Control deck. Either way, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how you'd morph the deck to make it a more Devotion-based Control style.
It seems like there is a lot of Aggro in the current meta. Just a quick look at MTGGoldfish's Metagame page, it shows that Humans, Affinity, and BR Hollow One are the three top decks percentage-wise. MTGTop8 has Aggro at 53% in the last two months but it seems like that number may be a bit skewed since it has Jund and a few other Midrange decks sprinkled into the list. Even so, it looks like decks are looking to close out the game faster overall.
I think that unless we see a rise in decks that hate out Humans and Hollow One we're going to have to either shelve the deck or tune it to better deal with aggression. I'd really prefer not to ditch the deck though. Unfortunately Green has very little in terms of removal and the best we've got to work with now is Dismember and Beast Within unless we want to start incorporating some fight spells (Prey Upon, Epic Confrontation, etc.) but frankly, our creatures aren't that great for 'fighting' -- except for Acidic Slime. The other option would be branching into another color and I'm worried that if we do that, we might as well start building Ponza or GBx lists....
Something I stumbled upon that looks cool (but is most likely too janky/has too many moving parts) is Frontier Siege. On Khans we can gain up to 4 extra mana per turn. On Dragons we can turn a Hornet Queen into a tutorable sweeper. If you run Hornet Nest as an aggro roadblock, you can turn those Insects into removal too. Obviously there's the downside of only applying to flying creatures. Maybe Destructor Dragon can be thrown in as an additional Bramblecrush effect. Sounds cool but I could see this throwing off our main gameplan. Still, its fun to throw some new ideas out there
If you've got them, surely make the substitution. But I don't think the Exalted trigger is worth the current ~$80 per copy price tag (at least for someone like me who is playing on a semi-budget) if you don't already own them.
I think a huge Goyf is something we're going to have a hard time stopping early game and we may just have to stall until we get down an Acidic Slime or Hornet Queen. I think an interesting sideboard card to test out would be Hornet Nest. Its not necessarily good against decks that run removal like Path to Exile or Terminate but I could see it being helpful in match-ups with lots of creature combat or damaged based removal.
You want early pressure? or early defense? Control decks aren't usually built with 'early pressure' in mind. Reid Duke's old(er) article on the Mothership about control decks mentions that "Control decks are concerned with tempo only as it relates to defending themselves" as well as " All you want to do is survive, develop your mana, and generate card advantage. " I think our biggest concern is ramping into our LD spells rather than dropping threats/defense. And since there's a good chance our LD spells aren't getting any better/cheaper, our deck needs get to 4 mana faster than the opponent so we can cut them off resources. Modern is very much a Turn 4 format and if we durdle around in the early game, we can very well lose to a lot of decks.
I think the mana storage aspect would be nice but I could also see a situation where you'd float mana to go into combat and get blown out by removal, losing all your mana for your 2nd Main play for the turn. You could give it a try in your flex spot.
Something similar I had thought about: Managorger Hydra. But I'm wondering if we're just better off playing creatures that have an immediate impact as soon as they're played.
I don't think it is a terrible inclusion but remember, we want to keep our Forest count high for Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl. Karsten's math on hitting the right colors states that we should want at least 14 untapped green sources for a Turn 1 play and 20 untapped green sources for an Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl (double green) play on Turn 2.
I'm also not sure when we'd want to be activating the ability. Our typical curve is pretty mana efficient and we don't usually have 2-3 excess mana until we get into the late game.
Not sure what you mean here. That planeswalkers are a problem for us? Or that we should be running planeswalkers?
I think banking on Steel Hellkite to come down to deal with a Liliana means that you're not in a good spot against an opponent. Quite a few of us are running Bramblecrush for planeswalker removal if necessary. Primal Command can also reset a planeswalker that is dangerously close to ultimate. I think my inclusion of Treetop Village helps my deck have a little more reach if something like Liliana comes down.
Any reason you guys aren't running Treetop Village? I've got 3 in the list I'm using and I've seen little downside. Yes, there have been one or two instances where I had wished to draw an untapped green source instead, but most of the time it has not impacted playing spells on curve. If anything, it's been helpful when we sometimes have those "do nothing" turns -- when we're playing just a bit off-curve and it can chip in a little bit of damage in the meantime. Or in the later game when we need to start closing out the game with attackers and have extra mana to spend.
Here's my current list:
3 Treetop Village
4 Arbor Elf
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Eternal Witness
1 Stampeding Wildebeests
3 Acidic Slime
2 Cloudthresher
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Bramblecrush
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1 Reclaiming Vines
3 Plow Under
4 Primal Command
Like Capt. Nick, I've still been a fan of Cloudthresher. We really have no way to touch smaller fliers (like Spirit Tokens) or a way to play outside of Sorcery speed to catch our opponent by surprise and 'Thresher does help a bit. I really do like having Hornet Queen in the main and I could see eventually shaving a copy of 'Thresher for The Queen. I sometimes struggle to regularly hit 7 mana though, especially against faster decks.
I've been trying out Root Maze in the main and I like it overall but I'm also a little on the fence about it. It's pretty great against most decks by punishing fetches and keeps people mana starved when we start bouncing/destroying lands and they can never make up lost ground. The downside for us is pretty minimal since we have dorks/Sprawls to sort of balance out the slowed mana production. We usually tend to build up extra lands with cards like Acid-Moss and STE too. The thing I don't really like about it is finding the right time in the game to play it. The optimal time is obviously Turn 1 when we're on the play. But at times when we're not on the play I contemplate whether or not to play a Turn 1 dork/Sprawl instead. If I play dork first, sometimes Maze gets stuck in my hand as I continue to curve out and by then it doesn't really make an impact. If I play Maze first, I risk stumbling on my own mana while the opponent slowly creeps ahead. The other obvious downside is that it isn't good in multiples. Or when in topdeck mode. It also doesn't do much to stop decks that don't rely on fetches or are mono-colored.
On no Ewit -- I don't know how I feel about that, though I will admit that sometimes 4 seems like it could be too many. I could see potentially trimming to 3 (definitely no less) in order to avoid having too many in the opening turns. Yes, putting a 2/1 into play and blanking an opponent's next draw seems underwhelming when they can just play cards from their hand but the fact of the matter is that they're not drawing more spells. And we're putting more threats/bodies into play in the meantime. Eventually their hand will get empty and they'll have to just sit and watch us play Magic while they can't. I also feel like EWit does more for us than just looping Primals too. She gets back anything from our graveyard that's been discarded or destroyed and that means opponents potentially have to burn through twice their discard or removal. EWit is about as close to Snapcaster Mage as we're going to get in green. Even if EWit is only good for Primal looping, playing multiple Primals is our own way to get card advantage/draw gas and sometimes keep our lifetotal high against more aggressive decks. If I were to cut a looping aspect of the deck, it would probably be the Stampeding Serow/Stampeding Wildebeests/Roaring Primadox before I touch Eternal Witness.
I also wanted to spitball some potential card ideas. Some may be bad, but at least we can say we've thought about it. No need to address them all but it'd be interesting to hear thoughts on anything worth testing:
- Somberwald Stag/Territorial Allosaurus/Foe-Razer Regent -- Tutorable "removal" with Primal. Stag may be too fragile to survive entering the battlefield and Allosaurus' kicker may a bit to costly if we need it early. Regent may be too costly too
- Channeler Initiate -- Early mana dork that can turn into a mid/late game 'threat'. 2 mana is realatively costly though. And 3/4 probably isn't strong enough.
- Jadelight Ranger -- I played an earlier version with Ranger in it and liked it. Potentially a 4/3, Scry 2 for 3 mana. Not exactly a budget friendly addition though. (around $10 a pop as of now)
- Mold Shambler -- I think this is run in Pauper LD decks. Maybe too puny/low-powered for Modern
- Verdurous Gearhulk -- On its own its an 8/8 Trampler for 5 mana. Can also buff our 1- and 2-powered creatures and we can rinse and repeat with bounce creatures in play
- Brutalizer Exarch -- A mini Primal Command on a 3/3. Repeatable with bounce
- Woodland Bellower -- Tutors EWit straight onto the battlefield and leaves a 6/5 body
- Pelakka Wurm -- 7/7 Trample, 7 life, draw a card. What more could you want?
- Sylvan Primordial -- Acid-Moss on a 6/8 with Reach
There's many more but those should at least get the conversation startedThanks for reading! Keep up the hard work brewing!
Yea, no, that little bit about having mana dorks was more in response to what you were saying about how "dork removal puts us so behind" and how the original list was built with that in mind. I was speaking more in regards to using EWit to get back our more impactful creatures or whatever slots people are trying to make for creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll or Dungrove Elders. I guess I was trying to say instead of trying to blank the removal, why not just use EWit to get back whatever has been removed. Its not like we're only limited to the 4 copies in the deck since we have main-deck access to Primal Command's shuffle and grab effects. I think those creatures can be fine additions but I'd be careful not to water-down the deck for fear of removal when we're already built to be fairly resilient.
As for watered-down, I agree that Raptor combo would probably take up too many slots dedicated to our main objective. Just figured I'd keep throwing stuff out to see what sticks.
I think Sylvan Caryatid is something to try out but I don't think I'd drop all the Turn 1 ramp cards. I feel like with only Tribe Elder and Caryatid you'd risk limiting your sub-optimal draws in favor of protecting your optimal draw when you actually have it. For instance, with a 'classic' build, you can very well not have a dork on T1, find it T2, and potentially still have the 4-mana play on T3. If you miss a T2 Caryatid/Steve in a no-dork build then you never have the T3 4-mana play. Also, in the no-dork version, you'll always require 3 lands on T3 while a build with mana-elves can make it work with less. I think the lines/probabilities are pretty complex with the 'classic' build so its hard to really tell. I think at the very least I'd keep in Utopia Sprawl since it's least susceptible to common removal. I'd be interested to see how it works out for you.
I'm really enjoying exploring all these new options
I understand that our dorks will take the brunt of the removal spells but I think that was the reason the original list played the extra Elvish Mystics/Llanowar Elves (so that we're not only relying on T1 Arbor Elf) and Sakura-Tribe Elder (so that we have a T2 play if we don't have Utopia Sprawl).
Something that I've thought about that goes along with the resiliency aspect -- Deathmist Raptor/Den Protector combo. Deathmist Raptor is a relatively cheap CMC creature that can play both offense and defense for us. Den Protector is almost another Eternal Witness and can potentially get back Raptors for free if we're using the ability. She's got a bit of evasion too. The downside is that the 'combo' can require a bit of setup and can potentially be mana intensive but I also think both cards can play well on their own. Also, finding places to cut in the deck can be a hard task. Most of our lists seem pretty tight. I doubt we could spare some space.
Yes, I think that going from mono-colored to multi-colored definitely adds more to any deck simply because adding an additional color essentially gains you access to 25% of all the Modern-playable cards that you couldn't play before. Unfortunately with Fetchlands/Shocklands being in Modern, there are very few advantages that mono-colored decks have over multi-colored decks. These being:
- Painless mana -- you're not taking damage from Fetches or Shocks so your life total will remain high
- Consistency -- you're not having to worry if you'll have the right mana combination to cast your cards
- Budget -- Dual lands are relatively pricey. Stomping Ground and Wooded Foothills are each around $20/copy
The last point -- Budget -- is most important to a player like me and it seems like was a big component in the creation of the deck. If you look at the original list, you can buy all the cards in the main deck for about $85. Neilson's big finisher for the deck (Cloudthresher) is a 25 cent "junk rare". GR Ponza decks are going for about $750TL;DR: No, I don't think this is better than Ponza. This deck is similar but a bit different. Yes, I think that adding Red could gain you access to more cards and make the deck more resilient if you choose to go down the multi-colored path. As for the players who want to stick with Mono Green for the (unfortunately small) list of advantages mono-colored decks provide, I think we should aim to try and leverage those advantages -- like looking at cards that require more G in their mana cost or cards that punish multi-color/fetch/non-basic lands.