MTG Salvation

I know, I was just referencing a known deck I've faced to try and estimate how this deck would fare.

With a couple of Blood Moons and some number of Terminates/Dreadbore/Anger of the Gods taken from the SB into MB, you've basically got a RB control deck with a Demigod beatdown plan. I've faced a deck like that at my local FNMs, and it stomps the living daylights out of many a greedy midrange decks. I don't see a reason why this deck would perform much worse.

My guess is Lashwrithe is too cute, just 1-2 Demigods in and of themselves should be sufficient to kill your opponent. I'd be in for a couple of Risk Factor in a deck like this, perhaps in the SB, as well as a couple of Sweltering Suns in MB if your meta has Humans/Spirits or any other swarm type decks.

Coming from playing Grixis in modern, the idea of running Snaps+Angler+LtLH works well, but you might have to support them with more Thought Scours, especially if you add Goyfs to the mix. I think the tension between goyfs who want a stable GY, and Anglers who feed of a one-shot big GY might end up being an issue.

Yeah, I was considering it even before Assassin's Trophy was spoiled, but I think its rate will go up a lot now.

Tendrils also has a hidden mode against GW value decks, since it doesn't care about them having Selfless Spirit, which is nice.

Opt doesn't jive too well with maindeck LotV, so I'll most likely be moving mine back to the SB. I've been testing out just basically substituting my Serum Visions for Opts and I feel the card is enough of an improvement to warrant no MB Lily. Just being able to keep up mana for Stubborn Denial and then EOT Opt or Snap+Opt feels great, and so far I'm actually quite impressed with it in our deck.

Edit: Do note that this is just quick testing, and a general feeling I've got after playing a few games with the card. It might well just be variance skewing the results for me.

I'd much rather run Bolts and YP.

I bring it in vs UWx Control, ripping their Cryptics and/or Verdicts really hampers their lategame. It's been serving me well so far.

I guess I'm not explaining my line well enough. Please note that this is a specific fringe case where you are holding both a counter and a Surgical, since the spell needs to not resolve for this to work. I'll try to explain it better step by step.

1. They cast Past in Flames
2. You crack a fetch land, hold priority and cast Stubborn Denial on PiF.
3. PiF is countered and goes to the graveyard.
4. With the fetch ability still on the stack, you cast Surgical Extraction on Past in Flames.

Since everything from step 2 onwards happens in response to the fetch, they can't flashback PiF.

Just a thing to consider against Storm: Keep an uncracked fetch at the ready. If they go for Past in Flames with mana up for the flashback you can crack a fetch, and with the fetch ability on the stack, counter the PiF and then surgical it from the yard. Since there is an ability on the stack for the duration, they can't flash it back since it's a Sorcery (one requirement for casting a Sorcery is that the stack must be empty).

Pulse of Murasa looks really good here with the flash threats. The only thing I might suggest is some number of Vendilion Clique,maybe over some number of obstructionist, 4 seems like a lot.

I was initially very positive about Unmoored Ego, but I'm not sure it really shores up our bad matchups. It's a card designed to hate out combo decks that need specific cards to win, but we already have a great matchup against these type of decks with discard + threat + stub.

Yea, I'm sure moment of craving is too cute. Oh well it was a nice thought.

After playing about 15 matches with Isochron, I only got 2 for 1'd once, and that was my own fault. If you wait until turn 4 or later to cast it against decks that can destroy it you're gauranteed at least 1 activation which makes it a clean trade.

With my limited experience so far, I'd say the only real downside to scepter is that against effecient black discard matches (BGx, Shadow) they can force you to spend most of your resources and strip your hand stranding the scepter without a card to imprint, happened to me only once so far, but I could see it being an issue.

And on the opposite side of things, watching your opponent effectively mulligan when they draw artifact removal in post board games after you take out scepter has been phenomenal.

Thanks for the response!

I really appreciate the scepticism actually, and I post here in order to get critical responses, the last thing I need is people just telling me it's fine. Alternative perspectives is just what i'm looking for.

As far as your suggestion for crucible goes, I probably will try something like that at some point, crucible has always been a medium to fine card in control decks anyways. My only issue with that might be that finding space for Field of Ruin might be difficult, I'm already struggling without having any colorless sources. I also thought maybe life from the loam, it's a Mana cheaper and even if it gets countered you can still dredge it which is nice option against othrt control decks where you usually want that effect anyways.

I think I might not have been clear though because I keep getting suggestions for cutting tap lands: my problem isn't with not having the right colors on time, or with lands ETB untapped. My issue seems to be the pain related to having 8 fetches and 3 shocks. I feel like Jeskai can get away with this to some extent because of lightning Helix, but we just don't have any good life gain cards in Sultai other than Thragtusk (which I don't want to play). I thought I could mitigate that by dropping the field of ruins and running all colored sources, but it still doesn't seem to be working (stabilizing at life totals that are too low). Do you guys think I could get away with a manabase with only 5-6 fetchs and 1-2 shocks?

Theoretically, could something like this work?


This would be:
19u
16b
12g

Could that work?

Quote from darkvoidman »

Quote from TyrantRevolver »

I wouldn't use Unmoored Ego on anything that Surgical Extraction should not be brought in for.

Discard should be more then enough to cut off unfettered use of Reveler (the only card I would remotely consider using Unmoored Ego on in their list), and this deck has plenty of removal to kill a pyromancer the moment it drops should it resolve.

firtst of all discard doesnt do anything vs the top of the deck.Mardu pyro has 3 to 5 ways to win the game.Pyro tokens,lingering souls,reveler beatdowns and sometimes walkers.the later 2 can be dealt so easy with AT.With ego i would just name lingering.You deal with 1/3 of their deck with just one card.

Quote from Superna7ural »

How does Trophy solve the plague UB has, that is a lack of an efficient modern playable finisher?

UB cant remove problematic permanents(walkers artifacts enchantments big creatures) AT deals with all of those . More over goyf is the perfect finisher(i would like to try tusks in the main like fabiano's list from 2015 )

Gofy is arguably one of the most susceptible creatures to Modern removal spells in the entire format, in terms of playable creatures. He slots into decks where there isn't enough going on around him to continually absorb removal. He cost less than 3 mana. He is 1 color. He isn't a black creature. He doesn't have hexproof. He doesn't have flying. He doesn't have trample... He is a cheap dork with no evasion and no protection and his toughness is based on other factors meaning he does indeed sometime even die to Lightning Bolt. He is best when other things are eating those kinds of spells increasing the odds that he can actually put in an 8 hour shift.

There is something to say about conventional wisdom and groupthink pitfalls, that often go completely unobserved in collective discussions like this.

Goyf is, and always has been, an attrition creature. There is a reason he works well in creature based decks and with discard and why he is less efficient in blue decks with disruption like counter magic. Counterspells are not attrition cards. Control decks are also not so much attrition based as they are preparation based. They reward set ups, not grindy maneuvering.

Tying this in with the discussion previously had about Sultai and why the deck is constantly at odds with itself based on color pairings and color pie fundamentals - You need to decide if you are going GBx attrition with Sultai or if you are going UB prep control set up with Sultai. From there you can give your deck a cohesive element by cutting out cards that are intuitive to your overall game plan. This means removing cards like Mana Leak, Cryptic Command, and Damnation from your 60 of a GBu Sultai list. Or removing things like Tarmogoyf and Tireless Tracker from your UBg Sultai. Running counter intuitive cards mean your openings are going to be partial and clunky. This is historically why the UBg Sultai decks never took off in the first place, because they lack a solid UB Control style finisher and they opt to run attrition cards instead of straight value cards like a traditional control deck. This is also why GBu Sultai decks have historically struggled to make a footing, they too often revert to powerful options that are at odds wit hthe gameplan of playing a straight attrition game.

This is also why Legacy has seen Sultai lists do well - they ran and still run a cohesive gameplan. Now you would argue that Force of Will and Cryptic Command serve the same purpose, but in reality they operate on completely different levels because FoW's only resource cost is a single card. meaning you can use your mana to play the hard attrition ground game with little opportunity cost. Modern does not let you do that when you are tapping 4 mana to make a play that is 100% reactive.

I think people get too lost in card tier that they simply forget about fundamental MTG theory and this is why Pro Tours feature breakout decks and SCG Opens often don't anymore. People favor groupthink and conventional wisdom over flexing fundamental game theory.

Quote from gizlow »

I've built a BUG deck using Assassin's Trophy+Snapcaster Mage to try it out. I love it and think BUG will be a real contender going forwards in modern. That said, I've played many games with GDS against it, and so far, GDS has a very real upper hand. The fact that Trophy can be countered really does make it a lot worse against us. Honestly, I think the way forwards is to return to 4x stubs in the main, and perhaps 1-2 Spell Snare in the SB against BGx decks.

Our delve threats still blanks much of their removal (apart from Abzan, path+trophy will most likely still be very rough), meaning that we can still rely on them as long as we have counterspells available. Also, trophy doesn't exile, so Kolaghan's is going to be as good as ever.

I think the meta will shift quite a bit, the BUG deck I built actually wanted to go late against UW, since it could run them out of wincons pretty easily. So one of our worst MUs will most likely suffer some. Our BGx MUs should be relatively unchanged.

Just my $0.02.

I actually played with 2 spell snares in my sb for a while. Here's the matchups they usually came in for:

Afinity: counters pretty much all of their best cards.
BGx decks: counters a lot of strong cards like dark confidant and goyf, as well as terminate and scavenging ooze. usually felt the worst against abzan.
Humans: This may seem out of place, since humans has cavern and vial, but it's totally worth bringing in since it answers a ton of strong cards like phantasmal image, thalia, thalia's lieutenent, and kitesail freebooter. the risk of it being dead is totally worth the reward, especially if your playing looting anyways.
Burn: Counters most of the cards that are strong against us like eidolon, boros charm, and skullcrack post board when we have brutalities.
Storm: counters all of their rituals and their enablers, which can slow them down a ton.
Goryo's vengeance: counters their most important card, and a lot of their discard outlets, like collective brutality, cathartic reunion, or izzet charm.

that's about all i can recall off the top of my head

I don't think we should ever be cutting Thought Scours, it's one of the best cards in the deck. Faithless Looting is seeing success in the recent lists because above all else it's Thought Scour 5-6. The card selection from Faithless Looting is ancillary to Looting's main purpose; to power out a turn 2 Angler. I strongly suggest Thought Scour as a 4-of no matter what mix of other cantrips you use. I wasn't on board with Faithless Looting at first but 2 really does seem perfect. GDS feels so so good when you lead with turn 1 discard, turn 2 Angler.

I'm on 4 Scour, 2 Serum Visions, 2 Faithless Looting. I understand the strengths of Bauble but I just don't enjoy playing it, and I think GDS' performance with Bauble vs. without Bauble is close enough that personal preference being the deciding factor is fine.

I am fairly certain the correct numbers are either 1-3 or 0-4, Tasigur to Angler. I wouldn't criticize people for playing either.

I have played Shadow for as long as it's been a deck, and I have seen Tasigur and Angler numbers go through all kinds of changes. In old Grixis Delver, people usually considered Tasigur to be the better card, and only played a singleton Angler because we didn't want to play 3 of the same legend. Looking back this could easily have been very wrong, but it was the conventional wisdom at the time. In Grixis control, Tasigur is pretty clearly the better card because you use the ability often, and he is more of a finisher than a fast clock to jam on turn two.

Shadow lists often started at 3-1 Tasigur to Angler, but moved pretty quickly to 2-2. The current ratio is probably close to 0.5-3.5, and it would be easy to conclude that Angler's numbers have steadily increasing is just proof that its better. This could be correct but I don't think it is cut and dry. The addition of Street Wraith when moving to Shadow from Delver or control does make a big difference, and is a point in favor of Angler. The more Reality Smasher and Tarmogoyf we see, the better Angler gets.

As far as ease of casting, I think there is really only a small difference to point of almost being negligible. Relic slows both down but eventually you overcome or force them to crack it, Rest in Peace wrecks both of them hard. If you are running into a lot of these type of card there is some merit to Tasigur, especially on the play, as you can brute force him into play to get under their hate, but in reality they end up playing out similarly. One thing of note is that Tasigur does occasionally come into play on turn two without Thought Scour, while Angler basically requires Thought Scour or a completely freak Street Wraith hand.

About the activated ability: I know plenty of people think it never comes up, but it really does. If you delve properly (and of course get a little lucky) then it can create advantage that does matter. It will come up infrequently, but in a drag out game against something like Jund even overpaying to buyback an Opt or Thought Scour can give you a little edge. That all being said, does this compensate for having one less power? Probably not, but dismissing it outright is a mistake. It is a legitimate upside of the card.

Other thoughts:

Random story from GP Kyoto: I had 3 cards in my yard, one untapped land in play, and my opponent had a tapped Relic with mana to activate. I had Angler in hand, and a Thought Scour that would power him out but also prompt cracking the Relic. I also had an IoK, which will come up later. I play and crack a fetchland, and I was very deliberate about putting it on the yard and on the stack and passing priority. I did this for two reasons. One was because we were technically at Professional REL and I wanted to be clear and precise, but the other is because I wanted my opponent to crack the relic. I of course wanted those cards in my yard, but I needed the Relic out of my hair. I wanted to play Scour and have everything stick, and also wanted full info and more options for the IoK. I will note that if I had Tasigur in my hand, I would have tried to play slightly faster with the fetch to try to get him into play while my opponent waits to stop Angler or snag more value. He cracked, and I played out the next two turns just like I wanted. This is really small and specific, and I was playing against a savvy player on day 2 of a GP, but these little things add up. If my opponent knows for a fact that all GDS lists play 4 Anglers and 0 Tasigur, then he knows the magic number there is 5 instead of 4 and can safely continue to sit on it. Me making my 'I have Tasigur and am really hoping you just pass priority' pouty face made my opponent do exactly what I wanted them to do and made my turn and my following turn play out better.

I obviously won't say we should play an inferior card just for "keep them on their toes" value, but you can take advantages of little things like this. Other random advantages of mixing up threats: Runed Halo and Maelstrom Pulse. I haven't seen too many Runed Halos lately so it probably isn't too much of an issue, but I have seen plenty of Jund lists with 2 Pulses recently so that is a legitimate point to think about. (Admittedly, Shadows are way more likely to get Pulsed, but its still a real thing).

That got longer than expected.

tl:dr - I would say 0.5/3.5 split of Tasigur to Angler is roughly optimal. Either is probably fine, but at the end of the day Angler is the better card, so I could easily see the argument that you should play 4, even without Bauble. So to answer your question of whether we should be "strongly considering" this? Firm yes.

Hey all, went 6-3 at the SCG Open in Milwaukee, WI, good for 132nd of a record 1,062 people. Played pretty standard Grixis DS, non-Bauble list. Not a bad day, all in all - I'll fill in the details later. One of my first thoughts post-tourney is, though, should we strongly consider just running 4 Gurmag Angler and drop Tasigur, the Golden Fang altogether? Yes, even for the non-Bauble lists. Even with Relic of Progenitus around here and there I still didn't have problems delving out to get our fish angel friend. I feel like the 5 power is important in a meta with Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf, and opposing Anglers. Other than the obvious "it's 1 mana cheaper so it's more likely to come down T2" argument I don't see the love for Bananaman in this shell and in this meta. I played him a few times and never got to activate his 4-mana ability, I should add.

Quote from geneyquakes »

I think something narrow like Double Negative is just too cute. There are plently more rawly powerful and widely usable cards out there that also happen to be good against Jund. I would stick to those.

Most definitely. I went back and read what I wrote... sleepy rambling is a thing I guess.

You're absolutely correct on all of your points I believe. Especially about bringing in the Extirpate effects against a deck where we need to be impacting the board. Spellbomb, at least, cantrips and shrinks GOYF. Liliana's and kill spells seem to be the best choices out of the board.