I'm making my way through this forum and I apologize if this has been discussed before...
Would Loxodon Smiter be a better option in our board for the control match up? Baloth gains us life but the not being countered thing seems pretty sweet...and it is 3 mana to cast.
You shouldn't be worried about the control matchups, those are already in our favor. All you need is a Dispel/Negate or two, maybe a one off Teferi/Boseiju/Clique, and you're all set.
Are they? Wouldn't you need a hefty amount of counter magic to ensure Scapeshift goes through?
Hey all, just dropping by to ask you Scapeshift experts a quick question. I am trying now to use the Prismatic Omen version with Explore (I have toyed already with BtL). When using Explore, how many lands are recommended? Do you think 24 is enough, or should the count be bumped (to 26 or so)?
It's an interesting approach. It is quite true that mostly the spread is heavier on the Foundry side rather than the Sword side. There must have been a reason for it. Not sure about diluting the main plan (Thopter Sword combo) that much with Lingering Souls, but please do let us know how it fares.
On another note I would suggesting adding one Academy Ruins for the extra recursion, having redundancy is never a bad thing.
Amen to that fellow packmate, or should I say 'awooooo'? They're the reason I am returning to Standard after a couple of years of hiatus.
Agreed that the 2-CMC spot is very important. I initially though Lambholdt Pacifist would be awesome, but without so much Lords this time compared to last time we visited Innistrad (2 vs 1) she's not so good. Better to leave her for Modern Werewolves. I think going 4x of both Kessig Forgemaster and Duskwatch Recruiter is the way to go.
My team and I are testing 4 Vision in UW Midrange Control. One of the deck's issues is lacking a good T1 play. Since we are on Omens, Visions isn't really played. T1 Path is not ideal and the only other T1 is Snare.
Another issue is that the deck can run out of gas by T5+ and it's typically at 0-2 cards. This esp happens vs BGx decks. Vision fixes that. The card puts you in a "don't die mode", which cards like Omens/Finks + Resto help us do. It's a T4+ deck, so Vision may help us shore up one of this deck's glaring issues.
Getting a Rev early sucks, but at least you can Suspend this if you draw it early and just make it to T4+, which this deck often does.
I also love that this deck baits Remands because we play things, so we can dodge it when we play Vision.
And chaining Vision is nuts, too.
You also need Snares to protect Vision vs Remands and this deck plays them. We also run Remands vs Vision in the mirror.
For Control, I see Vision like Vial. If they draw Vial beyond T2, it gets progressively worse, but that doesn't mean they don't run it. If they get it by T1 or 2, it's awesome and gives them inevitability, which fuels their gameplan. Same with Vision for Midrange/Control.
Chaining Vision is nuts indeed!
I think Vision is a must at least 3, preferrably at 4. The thing is, while it is true that it gets progressively worse the longer the game draws, the simple, raw power of a 1st turn AV is simply too great to forgo. And it's not as if we, as a Ux deck, don't have the tools to drag on the game as much as we want, so the 'con' is not so harsh. So you, so far in your testing, have sent Remand to the side and brought it back on the Ux mirror?
I have no doubt Vision is good in this deck, especially in draw-go versions. However, the more I think about it, the more I realize it's a win more card. It doesn't improve our bad MUs (fast combo, Tron, better control decks) it only improves MUs that are already good (BGx, other midrange decks). I don't think it improves our blue based control MUs, 'cause these decks (Jeskai Control, Grixis Control) will run their own Visions, so we get no advantages. Also, they usually have more counterspells to win the counter wars on suspended Visions, like Dispel and so forth. So yea. The card should be played, 'cause it's good. But it doesn't really solve our problems, that are still there. Also: if an Esper Tezzeret-Sword-Foundry deck will become tier, it will be no good MU for us. Not sure the meta shift after the unbans will favor UW.
I don't think BGx is a good matchup for us, especially Jund. The discard and Hand control is real and painful, and a resolved Lili is usually game (at least G1 anyways). AV can give us a fighting chance.
I agree that the card doesn't solve our problems, but if we are playing against a blue deck with AV, then we will be behind by not casting our own. In the attrition matchups (non-combo blue, GBx, etc) AV is pretty damn strong. Vs almost every aggro deck, its pretty damn slow, even on turn one. Depending on how the meta shakes out, we will know if its correct to run or not. For now I refuse to run such a situational card that doesn't do anything beyond give me more cards. At least Rev gives life
But, versus aggro, or especially burn decks, you may not even get to cast Sphinx's Revelation at all. And it is so cost-heavy, I never saw anyone running a playset of it (except in Ravnica Standard). Won't argue the card is good, I use it myself, but it serves a different function than AV.
After some testing I agree that the only real place for Thopter-Sword is in a dedicated deck. It's just too hard to assemble and take advantage of. Also, it will need some early disruption to function. The T1 Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize to pull hate out of the opponents hand is very important. It just makes more sense in Tezzerator where you can consistently set it up and it acts as more of a barrier the way that Ensnaring Bridge does.
I'll probably go back to a Elspeth and a more controlling UW Control deck, but first I need to see how my local meta settles out and whether I should invest in a playset of Ancestral Visions.
Agreed. After some testing, just splashing the combo is underwhelming. It simply does not come as quickly or, worse, *easily* by simply controlling and waiting to assemble it. I then included 3x Muddle the Mixture, but while it does allow me to search for the combo, it still feels... odd. After assembling the combo, I won. But in the meantime it is a real struggle to play, and if I don't get it I lost. It may be that also it is too dependent on the combo, and that a single Gideon Jura is not good enough as alternate win condition. I think a little more dedication is to the combo is worth it, but it leaves it vulnerable to artifact hate.
Precisely. Control, as the reactive archetype, must and will adapt to whatever becomes dominant (correct me if I'm wrong though, isn't the combo supposed to be an effective aggro/burn hoser, as all the discussions on the internet have pointed out?). So for the first weeks we will be basically the weakest, as we have nothing to react to. So just play whatever you find fun in the meantime, what you know will be able to compete at your locals, or try out the new stuff.
For instance, my local meta hasn't shifted much with this list, but remains heavily aggro-oriented. So my deck will basically remain the same, or rather within the same spirit. I do want to have a go at the combo, myself, as i was not around the first time it existed. Now that I have gotten some AV and SotM + TF myself, I'm simply splashing all that on my current deck and see what happens:
I'm not overly excited about the curve, and may proceed to cut some Supreme Verdicts in the future, depending on how much/if does the combo actually stymie aggro decks (my locals is plagued with aggro and infect decks). However, I like having three wincons just to be able to properly adapt to the match as it progresses.
Actually, that's not a bad idea at all. Both abilities have good synergy at all moments of the combo, whether you lose a Sword early or late game when you want a single push to win the game. May try to use that Land, depending on how reliable the combo actually is. Are there other lands that produce 1/1 creatures?
I have never played with AV myself, but I don't think the 4-turn delay is a huge deal. I mean, we are already controlling the pace of the game with permission and removal spells, so even if AV is drawn on turn 3+ it should be easily resolving.
So, with Sword of the Meek unbaned, could a variant involving good old SotM + Thopter Foundry be a viable way to go with the Deck? Less Midrange-y and a little more Control/Combo oriented?
Yes, I'm on UW Control myself right now, but as always exploring other possibilites to take my pals by surprise. I simply love Modern and all the possibilities there are here (even through this Eldrazi Winter).
So 2-3 of each Thraben Inspectors and Expose Evil sound good? What about between Thopter Engineer and Blade Splicer? I myself lean more towards Engineer myself, but it could be the combo player in me.
I've had mixed experiences with those cards. Inspector is great in the first 3-4 turns and then becomes pretty terrible. I really hate her against Affinity where she's largely useless, but she's a bit better against Jund where she can protect Colossus from Lily and Fog a Goyf. Theoretically, you can treat her as Merchant of Secrets in topdeck mode, but that's pretty terrible and doesn't often save you because you probably needed the Clue to get Colossus and the 1/2 body is irrelevant.
Evil is better. It's basically a Fog + Clue in every matchup unless Affinity switches Plating at instant speed for BB, or sneaks around it with risky, all-in Ravager activations (which you can blow-out with Bolts/Paths/etc.). You can also use Evil to switch to aggro mode, tapping down blockers for Snapcaster and Angel beatdown with Bolt backup. I'm down to 0 Inspectors right now but still at 3 Exposes.
As for Engineer vs. Splicer, I switched back to Engineer after staying on Splicer for a while. Losing to the Affinity airforce on turn three is unacceptable. I also want to be able to outrace turn 3-4 combo decks, and Splicer can't do that but Engineer can. If the metagame switches to heavy Abzan/Grixis/Jeskai grindfests, I'll go back to Splicer.
How often, in your experience, do you manage to actually win the game in one single Blightsteel swing?
Not often. Maybe 30% of games where I see Colossus. But my testing opponent also knows what I'm playing, which definitely skews results.
I haven't tested either yet, but what you say pretty much confirms what I expected from both cards. Inspector past the first turns doesn't seem to contribute much, and the Deck has many ways to defend itself already so it seems like a terrible topdeck. So all in all it is average then. Expose at least keeps you alive for one more turn, hopefully the one needed for the win. Its instant speed is what really lures me to it.
About Engineer, yes, the little Flying Thopter can make a huge difference. Contributes both to the combo and the beatdown plan, which (should) be amazing. Engineer into P&K also sounds really nice, especially since building such a board state makes the possibility of a Colossus finish all the more real.
I imagined that once people figure out the combo they would be effectively able to stop it. Then again, the mere possibility of comboing out must at least impact how the opponent plays their own game, right? You know, a la Splinter Twin of yore?
Yes, I'm on UW Control myself right now, but as always exploring other possibilites to take my pals by surprise. I simply love Modern and all the possibilities there are here (even through this Eldrazi Winter).
So 2-3 of each Thraben Inspectors and Expose Evil sound good? What about between Thopter Engineer and Blade Splicer? I myself lean more towards Engineer myself, but it could be the combo player in me.
Are they? Wouldn't you need a hefty amount of counter magic to ensure Scapeshift goes through?
On another note I would suggesting adding one Academy Ruins for the extra recursion, having redundancy is never a bad thing.
Agreed that the 2-CMC spot is very important. I initially though Lambholdt Pacifist would be awesome, but without so much Lords this time compared to last time we visited Innistrad (2 vs 1) she's not so good. Better to leave her for Modern Werewolves. I think going 4x of both Kessig Forgemaster and Duskwatch Recruiter is the way to go.
I'll now be focusing on UW Thopter Control, or to even see if that exists at all. You know, it's what is now in vogue and all that...
On that note, I still don't know which CMC 2 or less artifacts will be played. So many options, so little time.
I think Vision is a must at least 3, preferrably at 4. The thing is, while it is true that it gets progressively worse the longer the game draws, the simple, raw power of a 1st turn AV is simply too great to forgo. And it's not as if we, as a Ux deck, don't have the tools to drag on the game as much as we want, so the 'con' is not so harsh. So you, so far in your testing, have sent Remand to the side and brought it back on the Ux mirror?I don't think BGx is a good matchup for us, especially Jund. The discard and Hand control is real and painful, and a resolved Lili is usually game (at least G1 anyways). AV can give us a fighting chance.But, versus aggro, or especially burn decks, you may not even get to cast Sphinx's Revelation at all. And it is so cost-heavy, I never saw anyone running a playset of it (except in Ravnica Standard). Won't argue the card is good, I use it myself, but it serves a different function than AV.Agreed. After some testing, just splashing the combo is underwhelming. It simply does not come as quickly or, worse, *easily* by simply controlling and waiting to assemble it. I then included 3x Muddle the Mixture, but while it does allow me to search for the combo, it still feels... odd. After assembling the combo, I won. But in the meantime it is a real struggle to play, and if I don't get it I lost. It may be that also it is too dependent on the combo, and that a single Gideon Jura is not good enough as alternate win condition. I think a little more dedication is to the combo is worth it, but it leaves it vulnerable to artifact hate.
For instance, my local meta hasn't shifted much with this list, but remains heavily aggro-oriented. So my deck will basically remain the same, or rather within the same spirit. I do want to have a go at the combo, myself, as i was not around the first time it existed. Now that I have gotten some AV and SotM + TF myself, I'm simply splashing all that on my current deck and see what happens:
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Supreme Verdict
Instants
2 Condemn
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
2 Detention Sphere
3 Thopter Foundry
Artifacts
2 Sword of the Meek
Lands
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Ghost Quarters
3 Island
1 Plains
Actually, that's not a bad idea at all. Both abilities have good synergy at all moments of the combo, whether you lose a Sword early or late game when you want a single push to win the game. May try to use that Land, depending on how reliable the combo actually is. Are there other lands that produce 1/1 creatures?
Still, excited about the AV unban. The blue mage in me rejoices.
I haven't tested either yet, but what you say pretty much confirms what I expected from both cards. Inspector past the first turns doesn't seem to contribute much, and the Deck has many ways to defend itself already so it seems like a terrible topdeck. So all in all it is average then. Expose at least keeps you alive for one more turn, hopefully the one needed for the win. Its instant speed is what really lures me to it.
About Engineer, yes, the little Flying Thopter can make a huge difference. Contributes both to the combo and the beatdown plan, which (should) be amazing. Engineer into P&K also sounds really nice, especially since building such a board state makes the possibility of a Colossus finish all the more real.
I imagined that once people figure out the combo they would be effectively able to stop it. Then again, the mere possibility of comboing out must at least impact how the opponent plays their own game, right? You know, a la Splinter Twin of yore?
So 2-3 of each Thraben Inspectors and Expose Evil sound good? What about between Thopter Engineer and Blade Splicer? I myself lean more towards Engineer myself, but it could be the combo player in me.