Curious about folks' experiences with Frontier Warmonger and Trygon Prime. They're both on my maybe list, but I'm a bit concerned about them being too powerful / too much of a swing for how little they ask of the player. How have people found them so far?
I want to double check and ask "Are we sure we want to spend our 2nd and 3rd turns on transforming Kherna Spellspear into Gitaxian Spellstalker?" There are other play patterns, but this one is clearly built into the card. Regardless of removal, those are a lot of resources to spend on ~4-mana worth of creature.
That's one play pattern built in, but I don't think it's plan A. What makes the Spellspear the only transform card I'm currently interested in is that the front face is a perfectly serviceable card. I think it makes more sense to use it as you would any other aggressive prowess creature, and transform it later in the game if/when convenient.
That said, if you don't have a turn 3 play, you haven't lost much by transforming it, as you weren't using that mana anyway. If they're tapped out on turn 3, you also don't get blown out much by sorcery speed removal due to the Ward 2. Not ideal, but not terrible backups to have.
EDIT: Maybe obvious, but transform also makes it more appealing than most 2-drops as a late topdeck, at which point you're less worried about getting blown out.
Also, I haven't seen any discussion of Fearless Skald, but I'm considering swapping out Scrapper Champion for it. Granting double strike on a stick seems pretty fun, and definitely like something my Gruul section wants to be doing.
Lagomos, Hand of Hatred looks to me like a more fair Gut, True Soul Zealot for the sacrifice deck, though unlike Gut it is vying for a guild slot. Still, initial testing suggests the latter is a bit too powerful for my tastes, so I'm interested in trying Lagomos out.
The tap ability looks like it'll be flavor text 9 times out of 10, but the tokens being free plus the fact that you get your first one the turn you lay this down seems pretty nice.
Inner Demon is definitely a cool card. There's an interesting flexibility: You can intentionally target a 2 toughness creature to make the sweep more one-sided, or you can give one of your big beaters evasion. Either way you get more value from the card than you would a straight Infest. On the other hand, you could also get 2 for 1'd by instant-speed removal, and if you're way behind with an empty board you are pretty sad. Personally I think the risk is worth it and am looking forward to trying it out.
Bluffing combat tricks with Cheering Fanatic sounds like silly fun in limited, but I'm not sure how great it is here. Needing to attack into a potentially unfavorable trade to get your one mana ramp doesn't sound super great.
This is true. She also can't be Fiend Hunted or even Hookmastered, so her power likely scales to the removal packages of individual cubes more significantly than some other creatures.
Haven't done this in a while, but this set looks pretty rad.
Definite Yes: Dauntless Bodyguard - Good card is good. Cast Down - Will probably replace Tragic Slip for me. Having redundancy in black removal doesn't bother me too much. Untamed Kavu - I'm already breaking rarity for Kavu Titan, and this is better. Nuts. Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive - There are a lot of 1/1 tokens and pikers in this format, so she should have no trouble finding friends to enable. Seems especially great in any sort of Jeskai color combinations of aggro, and should be fun with instant speed buffs. I dream of pairing this with Accorder Paladin or Kiln Fiend. Skizzik - I'm not entirely sure how well this compares to Charging Monstrosaur or Keldon Champion, but I think my red section has room for all three. Solid aggro topper that I've always liked.
Testing: Song of Freyalise - I have no idea how to evaluate this card. Pretty awful topdeck, but curious to see how well it curves out in the early / midgame. Ramping into Trostani's Summoner would be amazing, but will probably never happen? Danitha Capashen, Paragon - While I don't support pants that much, this could also be very strong in +1/+1 counter decks, or just with anthems / pumps. At first I thought it might be too similar to Aerial Responder, but it's more splashable and a stronger signal / later pick for the archetypes it wants to fit into. We'll see how reliably it gets "turned on."
Probably not: Baird, Steward of Argive - Seems like a more fair sideboard against aggro and tokens than Ghostly Prison / Propaganda, but like others here I'm not sure I'm interested in having this effect in my cube. Less effective than a sweeper and more annoying. Shanna, Sisay's Legacy - Tempting, but hard to justify in a guild slot. Looking at my own section, I think I'd rather have Sunblade Elf for the role of flexible early game curve / late game token support. She does dodge a humorous amount of black removal, though (Ultimate Price, Cast Down, all the various Nekrataals).
Cards just end up in your graveyard indiscriminately, so you can't call that a scry 1 in any form.
Ah, right. Completely misread that and was thinking you reveal them first for some reason when I saw it was a "may" effect. Neeevermind, that's disappointing.
I don't think many people play Putrid Imp anymore, and Heir of Falkenrath also beats out the dragoon in most cases.
I'm personally excited to test out Crop Sigil though. It might be a dead draw late game, but a free psuedo-scry 1 every turn that fuels graveyard strategies seems pretty good. It also helps enable its own Delirium trigger which could make the regrowth effect more consistent.
I agree with valg in the main thread that white and green already do a pretty good job with support through tokens alone. If you want additional support, though, I'd probably focus on green. Undying and persist creatures work well, and green also has a lot of dudes with token-producing death triggers such as the "penumbra" and "symbiotic" creatures. Lumberknot and Saproling Burst might work? I wonder if Parallel Lives / Doubling Season would be overboard... Sacrifice outlets outside of RB are a bit sparse, and I'm not sure you would want them, but Birthing Pod and Evolutionary Leap are possibilities.
I agree about Brago, blinking your whole board every turn seems like a beating. I'm even a little hesitant over Galepowder Mage for his stats / how he compares to Glimmerpoint Stag. I do wish we had something between those cards and Mistmeadow Witch power-wise, though. Spitting Image looks pretty nuts too, and Fleecemane Lion is almost impossible to remove if it goes off.
I'd also be wary of Grave Pact. I feel like it will either do nothing (you don't have triple black / your opponent has lots of weenies / your sacrifice combo isn't set up) or it will completely shut down games.
Black in general has a lot of card advantage engines. I think Underworld Connections in particular is excessive, as it's cheap and hard to remove.
There are only a couple that feel weak: I'm not sure what deck exists that can properly abuse Black Vise, and Chained to the Rocks seems redundant when you have cards like Journey to Nowhere (though the chains are still really good, and obviously better if your straight white removal is depowered).
Keiga, the Tide Star strikes me as being far beyond the other cards. Compared to Mahamoti Djinn, you get one less toughness and a free Control Magic on death. Actually, it's even better because your opponent can't take their guy back with enchantment removal. It's pretty much on curve without the mind steal ability, and the ability is really good.
I agree with valgatiag that the Thrasher and Sphinx look the most interesting/fun of the 3cc lot there. Time Elemental looks like a janky Capsize, and Fleeting Image is worse than Lantern Spirit, which I don't think is that good.
Also, I noticed a few people in this thread run Charmbreaker Devils. How have you found that card? I'm interested in it, but the repeatable recursion seems like it could be really swingy.
Yeah, I guess it depends on what you're trying to do with your format, as many people would say that a lack of sweeps is part of peasant's identity. I'm personally not going down that road, but as I mentioned it seems like if you do it might be wise to play it conservatively with those effects since it's going to be tougher to recover from a board clear than it would be in a rare cube (or at least, it's going to change how people play against white in a pretty big way).
Looking through white 5 drops, Archon of Redemption isn't flashy but could do work in WU Skies. Archon of Justice seems really solid (maybe a bit much, but the death trigger is tougher to take advantage of than ETB), and I really like the pseudo-Reconnaissance effect of Gustcloak Savior, which lets wider decks swing in with a deal of impunity. Scion of Vitu-Ghazi is about on par with Cloudgoat Ranger, but gets better if you're in GW tokens.
As far as curve-toppers I think it's a bit tougher to hit the right power level. Karmic Guide appeals to reanimation but is perhaps not good enough. Requiem Angel is great in tokens and better in sacrifice, but kind of blows Pawn of Ulamog out of the water. Luminous Angel is probably too slow. Yosei, the Morning Star is above curve and can provide a huge swing.
Luminate Primordial and Celestial Archon might be closer. The first seems more fair than Angel of Serenity, and the second can be a good creature for 5 or an awesome sticky creature for 7 (with the downside of potentially getting 2-for-1'd if your opponent has enchantment removal, but most is sorcery speed in this format).
The enchantments also look okay: Mobilization seems fairly costed (though tougher to remove than Jade Mage), and Blind Obedience looks like a more cubeable Kismet (though it sort of hoses the Fires deck if you support that).
Kjeldoran Outpost and Decree of Justice are a bit tough for me to evaluate. My feeling is that they're alright: the former is limited to one token per turn like Squirrel Nest. The second requires a ton of mana to use effectively, but the fact that you can cycle it as an instant could make it pretty good (I imagine paying for the primary cost will be pretty rare).
Angel of Serenity and Martial Coup seem like absolute houses. Both have huge impacts on your opponent's board AND leave you with significant bodies yourself. They're expensive, yeah, but 7 mana is not that terribly high, and the vast majority of the time they will probably win you the game on the spot.
I would also play it more cautious with the Wrath effects, and probably only include one to start for testing. I may also reduce the power level: Austere Command in particular seems easy to turn into a huge lopsided play. Maybe Planar Cleansing, as it requires 6 mana and heavy white commitment, or Mageta the Lion, since he takes up a lot of resources and can be answered by opponents?
It's cool to hear that Kazandu Tuskcaller does well in UG decks, since that's actually what I had in mind when I was looking at the card.
Good point about Hundred-Handed One, I hadn't given too much consideration to the base stats. I was also thinking about Commander Eesha for this slot, but decided it was a bit too close to Seraph of Dawn for my tastes (though I suppose it fills a pretty different role, on reflection).
As far as the Dryad, it wasn't just the dedicated three color decks I was worried about, but also the fact that any two color could splash green for it and make it big without much effort. I guess the lack of evasion and slow rate of growth may balance it out in those situations though.
But yeah, Gavony Township probably deserves closer attention than I was thinking... Thanks for the feedback.
As far as Ant Queen, I don't think it's too far off, but compared to Jade Mage it's a quick value-generator that's much tougher. I would imagine that how much better it is depends on how strong your removal options are.
I am undecided on sweepers/wraths. While remaining sceptical, they do add an interesting element.
I agree that I would be more inclined to run Starstorm over Earthquake for splashability reasons. On the other hand, the player damage on Earthquake could perhaps work as a drawback for a control player. Spending all your mana and taking 4 is perhaps a fair price to pay to wipe a board? This ignores the times when an X=2 gives you a 3+ for one though. However, we already have access to Savage Twister, so this is perhaps fine?
How do we feel about Larry Nevin's Disk? Is this among the more OK wraths for peasant? It takes 5 mana and two turns, and the opponent can at least play around it to some extent. It also dies to sex monkeys and other artifact hate. Would it be more ok in an evironment that ran more artifact hate and where such effects were main deckable?
I think the Disk is pretty insane. Barring an astoundingly high volume of artifact hate in your cube, the amount of times you're going to have an answer in hand is going to be pretty low, effectively making it a 1-turn suspended Wrath (that also clears artifacts / enchantments) in any color. Maybe if your cube environment looks like Mirrodin? Even then I'd have my reservations.
Also, I've slotted in my rare additions to Cubetutor, though I don't get the chance to play that often so it'll likely be a good while before I'm able to actually get the cards and test them out.
The cards I'm least sure of are Hammer of Bogardan and Quirion Dryad. The former I'm hoping will find a place in a more control-oriented version of the spells matter deck, but maybe it's just too slow. The latter I think is probably more fair than Managorger Hydra (?), but the Miracle-Gro shenanigans still might be too much.
That's one play pattern built in, but I don't think it's plan A. What makes the Spellspear the only transform card I'm currently interested in is that the front face is a perfectly serviceable card. I think it makes more sense to use it as you would any other aggressive prowess creature, and transform it later in the game if/when convenient.
That said, if you don't have a turn 3 play, you haven't lost much by transforming it, as you weren't using that mana anyway. If they're tapped out on turn 3, you also don't get blown out much by sorcery speed removal due to the Ward 2. Not ideal, but not terrible backups to have.
EDIT: Maybe obvious, but transform also makes it more appealing than most 2-drops as a late topdeck, at which point you're less worried about getting blown out.
Also, I haven't seen any discussion of Fearless Skald, but I'm considering swapping out Scrapper Champion for it. Granting double strike on a stick seems pretty fun, and definitely like something my Gruul section wants to be doing.
The tap ability looks like it'll be flavor text 9 times out of 10, but the tokens being free plus the fact that you get your first one the turn you lay this down seems pretty nice.
Bluffing combat tricks with Cheering Fanatic sounds like silly fun in limited, but I'm not sure how great it is here. Needing to attack into a potentially unfavorable trade to get your one mana ramp doesn't sound super great.
This is true. She also can't be Fiend Hunted or even Hookmastered, so her power likely scales to the removal packages of individual cubes more significantly than some other creatures.
As an aside, does anyone know how Necromancy or Diabolic Servitude interact with an opponent's Shanna?
Definite Yes:
Dauntless Bodyguard - Good card is good.
Cast Down - Will probably replace Tragic Slip for me. Having redundancy in black removal doesn't bother me too much.
Untamed Kavu - I'm already breaking rarity for Kavu Titan, and this is better. Nuts.
Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive - There are a lot of 1/1 tokens and pikers in this format, so she should have no trouble finding friends to enable. Seems especially great in any sort of Jeskai color combinations of aggro, and should be fun with instant speed buffs. I dream of pairing this with Accorder Paladin or Kiln Fiend.
Skizzik - I'm not entirely sure how well this compares to Charging Monstrosaur or Keldon Champion, but I think my red section has room for all three. Solid aggro topper that I've always liked.
Testing:
Song of Freyalise - I have no idea how to evaluate this card. Pretty awful topdeck, but curious to see how well it curves out in the early / midgame. Ramping into Trostani's Summoner would be amazing, but will probably never happen?
Danitha Capashen, Paragon - While I don't support pants that much, this could also be very strong in +1/+1 counter decks, or just with anthems / pumps. At first I thought it might be too similar to Aerial Responder, but it's more splashable and a stronger signal / later pick for the archetypes it wants to fit into. We'll see how reliably it gets "turned on."
Probably not:
Baird, Steward of Argive - Seems like a more fair sideboard against aggro and tokens than Ghostly Prison / Propaganda, but like others here I'm not sure I'm interested in having this effect in my cube. Less effective than a sweeper and more annoying.
Shanna, Sisay's Legacy - Tempting, but hard to justify in a guild slot. Looking at my own section, I think I'd rather have Sunblade Elf for the role of flexible early game curve / late game token support. She does dodge a humorous amount of black removal, though (Ultimate Price, Cast Down, all the various Nekrataals).
Ah, right. Completely misread that and was thinking you reveal them first for some reason when I saw it was a "may" effect. Neeevermind, that's disappointing.
I'm personally excited to test out Crop Sigil though. It might be a dead draw late game, but a free psuedo-scry 1 every turn that fuels graveyard strategies seems pretty good. It also helps enable its own Delirium trigger which could make the regrowth effect more consistent.
There are also a lot of crazy efficient flyers in this list (Thunderbreak Regent, Conquering Manticore, Steel Hellkite) that are just way too much. Creeperhulk is also pretty brutal.
I'd also be wary of Grave Pact. I feel like it will either do nothing (you don't have triple black / your opponent has lots of weenies / your sacrifice combo isn't set up) or it will completely shut down games.
Black in general has a lot of card advantage engines. I think Underworld Connections in particular is excessive, as it's cheap and hard to remove.
There are only a couple that feel weak: I'm not sure what deck exists that can properly abuse Black Vise, and Chained to the Rocks seems redundant when you have cards like Journey to Nowhere (though the chains are still really good, and obviously better if your straight white removal is depowered).
Stromkirk Noble, Molten Vortex, and Hall of Triumph look pretty fun.
For blue, you really like Clone effects, eh?
Keiga, the Tide Star strikes me as being far beyond the other cards. Compared to Mahamoti Djinn, you get one less toughness and a free Control Magic on death. Actually, it's even better because your opponent can't take their guy back with enchantment removal. It's pretty much on curve without the mind steal ability, and the ability is really good.
I agree with valgatiag that the Thrasher and Sphinx look the most interesting/fun of the 3cc lot there. Time Elemental looks like a janky Capsize, and Fleeting Image is worse than Lantern Spirit, which I don't think is that good.
Also, I noticed a few people in this thread run Charmbreaker Devils. How have you found that card? I'm interested in it, but the repeatable recursion seems like it could be really swingy.
Looking through white 5 drops, Archon of Redemption isn't flashy but could do work in WU Skies. Archon of Justice seems really solid (maybe a bit much, but the death trigger is tougher to take advantage of than ETB), and I really like the pseudo-Reconnaissance effect of Gustcloak Savior, which lets wider decks swing in with a deal of impunity. Scion of Vitu-Ghazi is about on par with Cloudgoat Ranger, but gets better if you're in GW tokens.
As far as curve-toppers I think it's a bit tougher to hit the right power level. Karmic Guide appeals to reanimation but is perhaps not good enough. Requiem Angel is great in tokens and better in sacrifice, but kind of blows Pawn of Ulamog out of the water. Luminous Angel is probably too slow. Yosei, the Morning Star is above curve and can provide a huge swing.
Luminate Primordial and Celestial Archon might be closer. The first seems more fair than Angel of Serenity, and the second can be a good creature for 5 or an awesome sticky creature for 7 (with the downside of potentially getting 2-for-1'd if your opponent has enchantment removal, but most is sorcery speed in this format).
I like the one drops: Soldier of the Pantheon has a unique ability that isn't too far off of Mardu Woe-Reaper, and Isamaru, Hound of Konda seems fair as long as you don't mind having a strictly-better Savannah Lions.
Paladin en-Vec seems fine, I'm just personally not a fan of specific color hosing. (The Soltari brothers fit into this same category)
Emeria Angel and Battlegrace Angel I think are a bit above curve (compare Battle Screech, Radiant, Archangel) but could be okay.
The enchantments also look okay: Mobilization seems fairly costed (though tougher to remove than Jade Mage), and Blind Obedience looks like a more cubeable Kismet (though it sort of hoses the Fires deck if you support that).
Kjeldoran Outpost and Decree of Justice are a bit tough for me to evaluate. My feeling is that they're alright: the former is limited to one token per turn like Squirrel Nest. The second requires a ton of mana to use effectively, but the fact that you can cycle it as an instant could make it pretty good (I imagine paying for the primary cost will be pretty rare).
Angel of Serenity and Martial Coup seem like absolute houses. Both have huge impacts on your opponent's board AND leave you with significant bodies yourself. They're expensive, yeah, but 7 mana is not that terribly high, and the vast majority of the time they will probably win you the game on the spot.
I would also play it more cautious with the Wrath effects, and probably only include one to start for testing. I may also reduce the power level: Austere Command in particular seems easy to turn into a huge lopsided play. Maybe Planar Cleansing, as it requires 6 mana and heavy white commitment, or Mageta the Lion, since he takes up a lot of resources and can be answered by opponents?
Good point about Hundred-Handed One, I hadn't given too much consideration to the base stats. I was also thinking about Commander Eesha for this slot, but decided it was a bit too close to Seraph of Dawn for my tastes (though I suppose it fills a pretty different role, on reflection).
As far as the Dryad, it wasn't just the dedicated three color decks I was worried about, but also the fact that any two color could splash green for it and make it big without much effort. I guess the lack of evasion and slow rate of growth may balance it out in those situations though.
But yeah, Gavony Township probably deserves closer attention than I was thinking... Thanks for the feedback.
As far as Ant Queen, I don't think it's too far off, but compared to Jade Mage it's a quick value-generator that's much tougher. I would imagine that how much better it is depends on how strong your removal options are.
I always forget about Savage Twister. Gruul's too deep, man. Decided to try out Starstorm; Breath of Darigaaz will continue to be my mini-Earthquake for now.
I think the Disk is pretty insane. Barring an astoundingly high volume of artifact hate in your cube, the amount of times you're going to have an answer in hand is going to be pretty low, effectively making it a 1-turn suspended Wrath (that also clears artifacts / enchantments) in any color. Maybe if your cube environment looks like Mirrodin? Even then I'd have my reservations.
Also, I've slotted in my rare additions to Cubetutor, though I don't get the chance to play that often so it'll likely be a good while before I'm able to actually get the cards and test them out.
1x Hundred-Handed One
1x Gleam of Authority
1x Glorious Anthem
Blue
1x Talrand, Sky Summoner
1x Prognostic Sphinx
1x Mahamoti Djinn
Black
1x Undead Gladiator
1x Necrosavant
1x Void Maw
1x Goblin Guide
1x Starstorm
1x Hammer of Bogardan
Green
1x Kazandu Tuskcaller
1x Quirion Dryad
1x Call of the Herd
1x Reverent Hunter
1x Shadowmage Infiltrator
Rakdos
1x Tymaret, the Murder King
Selesnya
1x Gavony Township
Simic
1x Mystic Snake
Colourless
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Erratic Portal
1x Mana Confluence
The cards I'm least sure of are Hammer of Bogardan and Quirion Dryad. The former I'm hoping will find a place in a more control-oriented version of the spells matter deck, but maybe it's just too slow. The latter I think is probably more fair than Managorger Hydra (?), but the Miracle-Gro shenanigans still might be too much.