Hey guys, back from a busy weekend and the celebration over the success of my Goblin/Burn list is over. The fact that the Eldrazi lists have coalesced around the strongest builds, and that those builds have decided to start running x4 chalice MB is, uh, a huge deal. Before this development, I almost always ran over the Eldrazi lists. We're now faced with a few tough questions that have already been raised...
1. Do we simply take a break from competitive play for a few months until an important piece to the Eldrazi deck is banned?
2. Do we warp our main decks to handle eldrazi or rely on the sideboard?
3. If we warp the main deck, to what degree should we be willing to do so?
4. Is all the testing and warping even worth it? We will still get rocked by eldrazi? Or if we are successful in shoring up the matchup, will we have sacrificed too much on the other matchups?
I'll share some preliminary thoughts -
1. I don't blame anyone for simply waiting for an Eldrazi ban. Don't expect an emergency ban though, WOTC has too much $ to make riding the Eldrazi wave to allow it happen. Has an emergency ban ever even happened? For myself, with all the time and effort I've put trying to build an optimal list, I'm not really in the mood to rebuild and retest right now. Part of me does just want to wait it out.
2. Considering that the Eldrazi lists run 4 chalice MD, we probably do want adjust our MD to account for it, although just hoping they don't draw one G1 and packing the SB with all sorts of hate isn't a bad idea.
3. How much to warp the maindeck is the toughest question to answer. Part of me likes the suggestion to just pack 3-4 tin street hooligan. Running painter's servant to slow them down doesn't work as well for us for two reasons. 1. They can kill it. 2. Slowing them down at the cost of slowing ourselves down seems counterproductive - our best bet against eldrazi is to just overwhelm them as fast as possible. Blood moon solves the "they can kill it" problem, but it's a turn slower and/or requires us run more Simian Spirit Guide's just to power it out. Also, to play it MD we'd need to be mono-red, which powers the deck down (sorry mono-red true believers). At least blood moon hurts other decks though. I'm not as hot on the idea to shift our curve upward to include more 2 and even 3 drops, although that may ultimately be the best bet.
4. Whether its even worth it makes me shudder. It might not be, we might still lose to the deck at a % we aren't happy with. As far as the other matchups go, I'm pretty sure warping the deck will hurt us in the other matchups, so uh, that sucks.
Hey guys, I went 5-0 on an MTGO Modern League yesterday! In my excitement that my version of the deck would get on MTGoldfish and Wizards site, I tweeted Lee Sharpe to ask about how it worked. https://twitter.com/mtg_lee/status/695044752991858688
Turns out I didn't win the lottery and it didn't get posted
I'll post it for you guys in case you are curious. I called it "Goblin Deck Wins"
I beat a Rally the Ancestors Deck (handily), I got pretty lucky to get a 2-1 victory against Affinity, won 2-0 against a r/w hatebears/kiki deck, 2-0 against a g/w beatdown deck that played scavenging ooze (scary), and won 2-1 in the final match against Jund. The deck was clicking and it was awesome! It felt so good to win those matches! I might be bothered to give a full report, but I'm a little busy the next few days.
For the exact reasoning you listed, I've been running Vexing Devil. I like that he triggers foundry street denizen, becomes huge with mutagenic, enabling trample on him with legion loyalist is awesome, and when he gets bushwhacked on T3 when they don't suspect it, it's awesome.
Nacatl is one I'd love to try, but you would need to drop the foundry street denizens (something I'm not afraid to do). Also, you'd need to commit to maindeck naya (something I have been afraid of).
Kird Ape's lack of haste makes him kinda meh, but at least he's red and efficient.
I think the best thing is to go with vexing devil. Mogg Fanatic is nice too, especially if you think the meta calls for more interaction.
@Topdecktown
I don't think you need to warp goblins to use BTE effectively. IMO BTE slots right into stable no lords lists running 8 or so two drops that dont need RR. I don't know what you count as "real reports" - I have been playing and reporting on it for a long time now. If you are looking for a high profile top8 with BTE in a goblin deck - GOOD LUCK lol. Realize the deck we are playing is in the developing competitive forum...
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I didn't say "real reports." I love to hear everyone's reports, no matter how big or small the tournament. The context of what I said was that in order for me to be convinced that BTE and Reckless variants were as good or better, I'd like to see some results from real tournaments. The reason for this is that WE HAVE seen results in real tournaments from goblins, but none of them had BTE (which is a card ive tested plenty, even before reckless). Anyway, I'd be happy to clarify what I meant by real tournaments.
PPTQs
RPTQs
Side Events at GPs
MTGO Daily Tournaments
MTGO Modern League
To further clarify, I'm 100% convinced that goblins can do well enough in these settings to warrant playing it. Not only that, I think the deck can be just as good as burn and zoo (and in some metas, even better). I'm convinced we can grow the deck out of developing competitive, especially if work together.
Lastly, I have certain biases towards certain versions of the deck, because I've personally done well with them at highly competitive tournaments. I'd be happy to have those biases challenged and even demolished, but (and don't take this the wrong way) results from small local FNM type tournaments aren't going to do it.
Burning-Tree Emissary is a card that has been a hot topic for a while now in the thread. I have been promoting it since MedRage told me of his mono red T3 brew. This card is a very powerful tool that needs to be considered in deckbuilding as a "package" and cannot just be added randomly. I thought this was intuitive, and it was obvious to me as a deckbuilder, but I have seen a lot of people talking it down from what I suspect is a misuse of the card. It would be a shame to waste such a good tool because of misinformed deckbuilding.
For my part, warping the deck to account for Burning Tree is what makes me nervous about it. I played many real live matches and found it to be not as good as I hoped, but I'm still sticking with it, because it takes usually hundreds of live games to really determine if a change is truly better. I'd love to be wrong, but until I get reports from real tournaments from those dedicated to it, I'm probably still favoring my old build that included one-drops and burn spells in the current spots taken by BTE and the enablers.
Just checking in, I've played about 30 live games so far (including two real tournaments) and I'd like to share some conclusions...
I have not found Manamorphose to be worth it. It does better in theory than in practice. It's ok/playable in a list with 4 Swiftspears, but even that is arguable. It's not "free" because you don't always draw what you want, sometimes it kinda whiffs. Relying on it for manafixing is also kinda meh, because you don't always need it for manafixing and sometimes when you need it, you wont have one.
Simian Spirit Guide is also not as good as I hoped. I had too many hands where the SSG didn't really substitute for a land, because it doesn't make mana every turn (obviously). For me, I liked the card, but I found that I could not run more than 2.
Mutagenic Growth has been solid and is the best Reckless enabler so far. It saves Guide, BTE, Swiftspear, and Vexing Devil. It makes the cut.
I haven't been as impressed with the BTE to Reckless "combo" as I would like, but I'm still holding out hope. It powers out some nice plays, but it's also stuck me with BTEs into nothing and made for some pretty meh hands and turn 3 and 4s.
Basically, I feel like we are playing a little too much with what is known as "variance." I'm going to a more stable build, and may even abandon BTE and reckless in the end.
Will you post the list you played also
I played 4 different lists, with each receiving about equal play time. They featured different configurations of SSG, Manamorphose, Swiftspear, and Foundry Street Denizen. I'd be glad to post the list I'm currently on, but frankly, any list outside of the parameters I listed above I'm not interested in play testing further right now.
Just checking in, I've played about 30 live games so far (including two real tournaments) and I'd like to share some conclusions...
I have not found Manamorphose to be worth it. It does better in theory than in practice. It's ok/playable in a list with 4 Swiftspears, but even that is arguable. It's not "free" because you don't always draw what you want, sometimes it kinda whiffs. Relying on it for manafixing is also kinda meh, because you don't always need it for manafixing and sometimes when you need it, you wont have one.
Simian Spirit Guide is also not as good as I hoped. I had too many hands where the SSG didn't really substitute for a land, because it doesn't make mana every turn (obviously). For me, I liked the card, but I found that I could not run more than 2.
Mutagenic Growth has been solid and is the best Reckless enabler so far. It saves Guide, BTE, Swiftspear, and Vexing Devil. It makes the cut.
I haven't been as impressed with the BTE to Reckless "combo" as I would like, but I'm still holding out hope. It powers out some nice plays, but it's also stuck me with BTEs into nothing and made for some pretty meh hands and turn 3 and 4s.
Basically, I feel like we are playing a little too much with what is known as "variance." I'm going to a more stable build, and may even abandon BTE and reckless in the end.
@razorchicken For a lord's list to be viable, we need another way to cheat the 3+ mana goblins into play such as Goblin Lackey and a way to refill our hand when they get destroyed like Goblin Ringleader.
The closest thing to a viable lords list as-is looks like this. I used to run this and had some success, but not as much as with the no-lords.
However, I'd just add that I think the easiest way to get into MTGO (financially speaking) is to take some $$ cards from your personal collection and trade them in to capefeargames via the mail. If you go for MTGO credit, they give you +20% more than the sell price listed. They give you a gift certificate to use on their sister site, MTGOtraders.com (one of the best). Furthermore, you can get -10% off from your purchase their by using the code "cedricpaypal" at checkout.
In terms of learning how to use MTGO effectively, the best way is to have someone show you. I'd be happy to do a skype screen share with you to show you how. In fact, that might be a good way to do playtesting as a small group anyway. If you are interested, I'll send you a private message.
@Franx @jedidad and anyone else able to play MTGO. I created a Modern Goblins clan on MTGO and will be adding anyone to it that indicates their MTGO name.
Also, can anyone tell me how to post a deck on here? I see how to insert this...
I'm digging all these reckless bushwhacker builds. Personally, I've waited to do anything more than theorycraft until I can go onto MTGO and do some live game playtesting, but I'm excited. I have three questions for us all...
1. How sure are we that Reckless is good enough that we dedicate all of the "non-core" slots to running it+ the cards that enable it? The goldfishing looks amazingly good, but to be frank, every goblin deck looks amazing in a goldfish scenario.
2. Does the strength of reckless push us towards pure go-wide strategies (token oriented builds) or even one that runs Kuldotha Rebirth? I'm salivating over the notion of running Shrapnel Blast
3. If you are interested in adding each other on MTGO for playtesting, would you post your screenname? I'm TopDeckTown on MTGO.
Greetings Zinamogg and thanks for your thoughts! As a follow up...
You mentioned some issues you had with some of my choices, so I'm really curious, what are you playing in their stead? And in what numbers? I think it'll be constructive to compare choices. (it's easy to make arguments for or against cards in a vacuum, you know?)
I have liked mogg fanatic, and I frequently slot him in for testing, but I just really, really wish he had haste. Comparatively speaking, Monastery Swiftspear has more upside, damage-wise, than Fanatic. The haste is also huge, as I feel the strength of the deck is in how quickly it can kill. As for using Fanatic as removal, I've found it more useful to use actual removal, (currently searing blaze, as its also 3 to the face).
On Eidolon, don't take this question the wrong way, but how much did you play with it? Is it possible you misplayed it some? (I found it did take some time to get used to the card, it did make the deck worse for awhile until I played it JUST right). On the matchups where he will truly condemn you (Affinity or other aggro on the draw) I just side him out.
Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a long time and I thought I'd finally get an account and join the conversation. I've been playing Goblins in Modern for almost two years now. I've tried every build, almost every card, and have piloted the deck in small, medium-sized, and large tournaments with success. Probably my best showing was at a ~250 person side event at GP Vegas. I placed top 8 and was one card away from winning the whole thing. Why the little preamble? Just to let you know I am a committed Goblins player, not just someone stopping by to see if they can't give Goblins a try.
Buckle up, this post is gonna read like a mini-primer (in-fact, I'd be happy to expand it and re-do the current primer if asked).
False Impressions and Common Mistakes
Many players approach Goblins from a budget or casual perspective, ignoring card choices or color splashes that help the deck perform immensely better in a competitive environment. While it is good that the deck is fun (who wants to play a boring deck?), and cheaper than most decks (not everyone can throw down $1,500 dollars), this means that there are very few highly skilled Goblins players are playing it competitively and contributing to playtesting, improvements, and making changes as the meta shifts. These factors contribute to the (false) impression that Goblins is not competitive enough for tournament play. I'd like to help change that. if I can.
Legacy Familiarity
Players familiar with the Legacy version of the deck attempt to port it to Modern without considering the differences in the formats. For example, blue-based, creature-light decks are very common in Legacy. Legacy Goblin decks prey upon this fact. Furthermore, there are some very powerful Goblin cards available only to Legacy players that practically require the decks to be built differently.
For example, Legacy Goblin players have Goblin Lackey, Goblin Warchief, alongside Goblin Piledriver and Warren Instigator at their disposal. This allows for powerful 4-5 mana cost Goblins such as Siege-Gang Commander, Krenko, Mob Boss, and Lightning Crafter to be much more playable. Furthermore, Legacy Goblin players do not have to worry as much about losing any particular Goblin from play, as Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader provide powerful ways for the deck to restock their hands with more Goblin goodness. The availability of Gempalm Incinerator and Pyroblast further contribute to the two decks being quite different.
These differences all combine to mean that Legacy Goblins is much more willing and able to play a more midrange style game featuring Aether Vial. If only Wizards of the Coast would reprint or reprise some of these cards, perhaps Modern players could have more freedom to build decks in a similar manner.
In summary, attempts to port the Legacy deck over have generally been unsuccessful. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I've tried it myself, with only moderate success.
The Many Faces of Goblins
We all know that Goblins is a highly customizable deck that can be played in a variety of similar, yet distinct ways. While this makes deckbuilding, playtesting (and primer writing) a more difficult task, it allows Goblins players flexibility in their card choices and the ability to tune it to a variety of metas and playstyles. Aside from the aforementioned Legacy-port style decks, there are basically two different styles of Goblin decks that I've seen put up real results (and by "real" I mean beyond reports from small events at local stores). I should also note that I've seen hybrids and slight variants of these decks also perform well.
1. Token-Oriented Goblins – Token Goblins relies on some combination of Mogg-War Marshall, Dragon Fodder, and Krenko’s Command to pump out as many goblins as possible. Foundry Street Denizen is a bit of star here, as he is able to get pumped to 3/1 very consistently. After playing these cards, Token Goblins blasts in with cards that pump the whole team, such as Goblin Bushwhacker, Goblin Chieftain, and Shared Animosity. It features a go-wide strategy that emphasizes the card advantage these cards bring to the table. It does well at fighting decks that rely on targeted removal. Obviously weak to sweeper effects such as Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods, Token Goblins can also reestablish a board presence a little easier than some versions of goblins (albeit with creatures without haste and low threat density).
2. No-Lords Goblins - This is probably the most successful version of the deck. It focuses on speed and plays hasty, high-powered creatures and then finishing the job with burn spells (especially Goblin Grenade) to the face. While it may run many of the same cards that a Token Goblins list would (like Goblin Bushwhacker), it will probably run them in fewer numbers and/or be less reliant on them to win. The remainder of my post will focus on this build, since its the one I've found the most success with and I feel is best.
On Piledriver
While I love Goblin Piledriver, playing him requires you to build your deck around him. He becomes kind of a pseudo-lord, and a deck built around him feels a lot like the goblins lists I used to run that had lords. When he dies, the game plan often falls apart. I don't recommend playing him, except maybe in the sideboard if you expect Merfolk.
My No Lords List - Goblin Deck Wins
There have been a lot of discussion about which Goblins to run, but I have found that the more I run non-goblin cards, the better the deck gets. You might be surprised by some of the choices here, but give it a try and see what happens. You might think it isn't enough goblins to justify the x4 goblin grenade, but it's not. I'll post the list, explain the choices, and would love to get some feedback and fellow playtesters on MTGO going to further optimize it.
Explanation -
x4 Foundry Street Denizen is included because he triggers off of every creature in the deck, he doesn't care if they aren't goblins, or if its a vexing devil going straight to the graveyard he's getting PUMPED!
x4 Goblin Guide - You hate to give your opponents cards, but knowing that a bolt is coming at your favorite creature is good to know. Oh, and he's the most aggressive creature in Modern and after he's been a traitor and given your opponents cards, blow him up.
x4 Legion Loyalist - Absolute all star. There are so many times where your opponents can't/won't block due to the first striking tramping team there's no way you don't run 4 of this guy.
x4 Vexing Devil - Sometimes a one mana boros charm that pumps the denizen. Sometimes a 4/3 that your opponent waits to bolt until he attacks (and then you mutagenic growth - absolute blowout). Sometimes a turn 2 big 4/3 trampler when legion loyalist gets his batallion on. Sometimes a t3 play w/ Bushwhacker that becomes 5/3 with haste. And yes, sometimes a topdeck that you wish was something else. He's worth it.
x2 Monastery Swiftspear - The weakest card in the deck, but probably performs well enough compared to mogg fanatic or any other one-drop. It dodges bolt with mutagenic, comes in with haste, triggers foundry street, and really likes atarka's command, searing blaze, and every single card in the entire sideboard. I consider this card a flex-spot, but I tend to keep coming back to it when I test with something else.
x4 Bushwhacker - One of the best cards in the deck and really pulls the non-goblins and goblins together into a truly synergistic deck. I liked playing x3 Bushwhacker, but he's just too good and it's important to keep the goblin count up high enough for goblin grenade, so its x4 for now.
x3 Eidolon of the Great Revel - You might be thinking, there is no way this card is good enough for goblins - and I resisted it - but I gave it a try and will never turn back. Think about this... our deck is SO fast, that we are almost always ahead in life total. If you stick this card t3 card with a goblin grenade in hand, you might not have won t3, but t4 is almost a certainty. The card single-handedly destroys storm and hurts many, many other decks. It gives us game against control (very, very important) and other decks that dump lots of cards on the table. It triggers foundry street and draws removal like a lighting rod. It practically guarantees at least some damage, not something you can say for too many other creatures.
x1 Mogg War Marshal - A flex spot for the deck, MWM is a card that makes it in due to comboing so well with foundry street and bushwhacker. It's a great goblin grenade target. Lastly, it helps put some goblins on the table to prevent not having a goblin grenade target.
x2 Mutagenic - Might seem very odd, but seeing how a well placed lightning bolt sometimes is the difference between a victory or a loss, something that counters it at 0 mana is pretty huge. It saves Guide, Devil, Swiftspear, and Eidolon from a bolt. With an atarkas command, it saves all the creatures from a bolt. Play with it, you'll find its a lot better than you might think.
x4 Bolt - Shouldn't need to describe why this card is included...
x4 Goblin Grenade - The whole reason to play this deck over burn or zoo.
x4 Atarka's Command - You MUST play this card. Never consider going below 3 - ever. Being able to maindeck lifegain hate gives this deck game against a wide variety of decks and prevents you from having to sideboard liefgain hate if you don't want to. Did I mention we go very wide and play TONS of one drops? This card makes the whole deck work. It also makes vexing devil not die to bolt.
x2 Searing Blaze - Probably the only card I consider truly, 100% flex spot. Against zoo, burn, affinity, infect, and more, this card pulls some serious weight. It clears the way for your Guide. Swiftspear (triggers it too), Vexing Devil and more.
Manabase comments - Being R/G for game one allows us to often fetch basics instead of shocklands. This saves life for the matchups against aggro decks (we're playing Eidolon, too, remember?). For matchups where our life total truly doesnt matter, we have the sacred foundry to give us access to some white cards that will help us in otherwise tough matchups.
Sideboard
Pyrite Spellbomb - saves us from straight up losing to Kor Firewalker. You can safely board it in, even if you don't know they will play it, because the card isn't bad on its own. It also kills etched champion and a few other protection targets that give us fits.
Deflecting Palm - gives us game against amulet bloom, bogles, tron (think wurmcoil engine) and any deck that plays big creatures. Good against burn, but I don't like splashing for the third color in that matchup. Basically the reason to splash white.
Boros Charm - a flex spot in the sideboard, B Charm is good for those matchups where you just want to become more a burn-like deck (control and some midrange decks).
Destructive Revelry - Gotta fight affinity and decks that rely on enchantments (twin, bogles) and artifacts with something, right? D Rev is the all star!
Smash to Smithereens - Smash that amulet of vigor and other pesky artifacts with this beauty.
Rending Volley - No twin, you will not beat us on turn 4, thats OUR job.
1. Do we simply take a break from competitive play for a few months until an important piece to the Eldrazi deck is banned?
2. Do we warp our main decks to handle eldrazi or rely on the sideboard?
3. If we warp the main deck, to what degree should we be willing to do so?
4. Is all the testing and warping even worth it? We will still get rocked by eldrazi? Or if we are successful in shoring up the matchup, will we have sacrificed too much on the other matchups?
I'll share some preliminary thoughts -
1. I don't blame anyone for simply waiting for an Eldrazi ban. Don't expect an emergency ban though, WOTC has too much $ to make riding the Eldrazi wave to allow it happen. Has an emergency ban ever even happened? For myself, with all the time and effort I've put trying to build an optimal list, I'm not really in the mood to rebuild and retest right now. Part of me does just want to wait it out.
2. Considering that the Eldrazi lists run 4 chalice MD, we probably do want adjust our MD to account for it, although just hoping they don't draw one G1 and packing the SB with all sorts of hate isn't a bad idea.
3. How much to warp the maindeck is the toughest question to answer. Part of me likes the suggestion to just pack 3-4 tin street hooligan. Running painter's servant to slow them down doesn't work as well for us for two reasons. 1. They can kill it. 2. Slowing them down at the cost of slowing ourselves down seems counterproductive - our best bet against eldrazi is to just overwhelm them as fast as possible. Blood moon solves the "they can kill it" problem, but it's a turn slower and/or requires us run more Simian Spirit Guide's just to power it out. Also, to play it MD we'd need to be mono-red, which powers the deck down (sorry mono-red true believers). At least blood moon hurts other decks though. I'm not as hot on the idea to shift our curve upward to include more 2 and even 3 drops, although that may ultimately be the best bet.
4. Whether its even worth it makes me shudder. It might not be, we might still lose to the deck at a % we aren't happy with. As far as the other matchups go, I'm pretty sure warping the deck will hurt us in the other matchups, so uh, that sucks.
Turns out I didn't win the lottery and it didn't get posted
I'll post it for you guys in case you are curious. I called it "Goblin Deck Wins"
4 Goblin Guide
4 Legion Loyalist
3 Foundry Street Denizen
3 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Simian Spirit Guide
Instants & Sorceries (15)
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Searing Blaze
1 Mutagenic Growth
4 Atarka's Command
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Mountain
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Deflecting Palm
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Pyrite Spellbomb
I beat a Rally the Ancestors Deck (handily), I got pretty lucky to get a 2-1 victory against Affinity, won 2-0 against a r/w hatebears/kiki deck, 2-0 against a g/w beatdown deck that played scavenging ooze (scary), and won 2-1 in the final match against Jund. The deck was clicking and it was awesome! It felt so good to win those matches! I might be bothered to give a full report, but I'm a little busy the next few days.
Nacatl is one I'd love to try, but you would need to drop the foundry street denizens (something I'm not afraid to do). Also, you'd need to commit to maindeck naya (something I have been afraid of).
Kird Ape's lack of haste makes him kinda meh, but at least he's red and efficient.
I think the best thing is to go with vexing devil. Mogg Fanatic is nice too, especially if you think the meta calls for more interaction.
I don't think you need to warp goblins to use BTE effectively. IMO BTE slots right into stable no lords lists running 8 or so two drops that dont need RR. I don't know what you count as "real reports" - I have been playing and reporting on it for a long time now. If you are looking for a high profile top8 with BTE in a goblin deck - GOOD LUCK lol. Realize the deck we are playing is in the developing competitive forum...
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I didn't say "real reports." I love to hear everyone's reports, no matter how big or small the tournament. The context of what I said was that in order for me to be convinced that BTE and Reckless variants were as good or better, I'd like to see some results from real tournaments. The reason for this is that WE HAVE seen results in real tournaments from goblins, but none of them had BTE (which is a card ive tested plenty, even before reckless). Anyway, I'd be happy to clarify what I meant by real tournaments.
PPTQs
RPTQs
Side Events at GPs
MTGO Daily Tournaments
MTGO Modern League
To further clarify, I'm 100% convinced that goblins can do well enough in these settings to warrant playing it. Not only that, I think the deck can be just as good as burn and zoo (and in some metas, even better). I'm convinced we can grow the deck out of developing competitive, especially if work together.
Lastly, I have certain biases towards certain versions of the deck, because I've personally done well with them at highly competitive tournaments. I'd be happy to have those biases challenged and even demolished, but (and don't take this the wrong way) results from small local FNM type tournaments aren't going to do it.
For my part, warping the deck to account for Burning Tree is what makes me nervous about it. I played many real live matches and found it to be not as good as I hoped, but I'm still sticking with it, because it takes usually hundreds of live games to really determine if a change is truly better. I'd love to be wrong, but until I get reports from real tournaments from those dedicated to it, I'm probably still favoring my old build that included one-drops and burn spells in the current spots taken by BTE and the enablers.
I played 4 different lists, with each receiving about equal play time. They featured different configurations of SSG, Manamorphose, Swiftspear, and Foundry Street Denizen. I'd be glad to post the list I'm currently on, but frankly, any list outside of the parameters I listed above I'm not interested in play testing further right now.
I have not found Manamorphose to be worth it. It does better in theory than in practice. It's ok/playable in a list with 4 Swiftspears, but even that is arguable. It's not "free" because you don't always draw what you want, sometimes it kinda whiffs. Relying on it for manafixing is also kinda meh, because you don't always need it for manafixing and sometimes when you need it, you wont have one.
Simian Spirit Guide is also not as good as I hoped. I had too many hands where the SSG didn't really substitute for a land, because it doesn't make mana every turn (obviously). For me, I liked the card, but I found that I could not run more than 2.
Mutagenic Growth has been solid and is the best Reckless enabler so far. It saves Guide, BTE, Swiftspear, and Vexing Devil. It makes the cut.
I haven't been as impressed with the BTE to Reckless "combo" as I would like, but I'm still holding out hope. It powers out some nice plays, but it's also stuck me with BTEs into nothing and made for some pretty meh hands and turn 3 and 4s.
Basically, I feel like we are playing a little too much with what is known as "variance." I'm going to a more stable build, and may even abandon BTE and reckless in the end.
The closest thing to a viable lords list as-is looks like this. I used to run this and had some success, but not as much as with the no-lords.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Legion Loyalist
3 Foundry Street Denizen
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Bushwhacker
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin King
Instants and Sorceries
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Atarka's Command
4 Goblin Grenade
2 Mutagenic Growth
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
3 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Blood Moon
2 Rain of Gore
3 Thoughtseize
2 Shattering Spree
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Dismember
You could also run Warren Instigator, Spike Jester, and Shared Animosity in a few of these slots with about the same success.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/magic-online-formats/188846-community-beginners-guide-to-mtgo
However, I'd just add that I think the easiest way to get into MTGO (financially speaking) is to take some $$ cards from your personal collection and trade them in to capefeargames via the mail. If you go for MTGO credit, they give you +20% more than the sell price listed. They give you a gift certificate to use on their sister site, MTGOtraders.com (one of the best). Furthermore, you can get -10% off from your purchase their by using the code "cedricpaypal" at checkout.
In terms of learning how to use MTGO effectively, the best way is to have someone show you. I'd be happy to do a skype screen share with you to show you how. In fact, that might be a good way to do playtesting as a small group anyway. If you are interested, I'll send you a private message.
Also, can anyone tell me how to post a deck on here? I see how to insert this...
But how do I add cards to it?
1. How sure are we that Reckless is good enough that we dedicate all of the "non-core" slots to running it+ the cards that enable it? The goldfishing looks amazingly good, but to be frank, every goblin deck looks amazing in a goldfish scenario.
2. Does the strength of reckless push us towards pure go-wide strategies (token oriented builds) or even one that runs Kuldotha Rebirth? I'm salivating over the notion of running Shrapnel Blast
3. If you are interested in adding each other on MTGO for playtesting, would you post your screenname? I'm TopDeckTown on MTGO.
You mentioned some issues you had with some of my choices, so I'm really curious, what are you playing in their stead? And in what numbers? I think it'll be constructive to compare choices. (it's easy to make arguments for or against cards in a vacuum, you know?)
I have liked mogg fanatic, and I frequently slot him in for testing, but I just really, really wish he had haste. Comparatively speaking, Monastery Swiftspear has more upside, damage-wise, than Fanatic. The haste is also huge, as I feel the strength of the deck is in how quickly it can kill. As for using Fanatic as removal, I've found it more useful to use actual removal, (currently searing blaze, as its also 3 to the face).
On Eidolon, don't take this question the wrong way, but how much did you play with it? Is it possible you misplayed it some? (I found it did take some time to get used to the card, it did make the deck worse for awhile until I played it JUST right). On the matchups where he will truly condemn you (Affinity or other aggro on the draw) I just side him out.
Buckle up, this post is gonna read like a mini-primer (in-fact, I'd be happy to expand it and re-do the current primer if asked).
False Impressions and Common Mistakes
Many players approach Goblins from a budget or casual perspective, ignoring card choices or color splashes that help the deck perform immensely better in a competitive environment. While it is good that the deck is fun (who wants to play a boring deck?), and cheaper than most decks (not everyone can throw down $1,500 dollars), this means that there are very few highly skilled Goblins players are playing it competitively and contributing to playtesting, improvements, and making changes as the meta shifts. These factors contribute to the (false) impression that Goblins is not competitive enough for tournament play. I'd like to help change that. if I can.
Legacy Familiarity
Players familiar with the Legacy version of the deck attempt to port it to Modern without considering the differences in the formats. For example, blue-based, creature-light decks are very common in Legacy. Legacy Goblin decks prey upon this fact. Furthermore, there are some very powerful Goblin cards available only to Legacy players that practically require the decks to be built differently.
For example, Legacy Goblin players have Goblin Lackey, Goblin Warchief, alongside Goblin Piledriver and Warren Instigator at their disposal. This allows for powerful 4-5 mana cost Goblins such as Siege-Gang Commander, Krenko, Mob Boss, and Lightning Crafter to be much more playable. Furthermore, Legacy Goblin players do not have to worry as much about losing any particular Goblin from play, as Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader provide powerful ways for the deck to restock their hands with more Goblin goodness. The availability of Gempalm Incinerator and Pyroblast further contribute to the two decks being quite different.
These differences all combine to mean that Legacy Goblins is much more willing and able to play a more midrange style game featuring Aether Vial. If only Wizards of the Coast would reprint or reprise some of these cards, perhaps Modern players could have more freedom to build decks in a similar manner.
In summary, attempts to port the Legacy deck over have generally been unsuccessful. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I've tried it myself, with only moderate success.
The Many Faces of Goblins
We all know that Goblins is a highly customizable deck that can be played in a variety of similar, yet distinct ways. While this makes deckbuilding, playtesting (and primer writing) a more difficult task, it allows Goblins players flexibility in their card choices and the ability to tune it to a variety of metas and playstyles. Aside from the aforementioned Legacy-port style decks, there are basically two different styles of Goblin decks that I've seen put up real results (and by "real" I mean beyond reports from small events at local stores). I should also note that I've seen hybrids and slight variants of these decks also perform well.
1. Token-Oriented Goblins – Token Goblins relies on some combination of Mogg-War Marshall, Dragon Fodder, and Krenko’s Command to pump out as many goblins as possible. Foundry Street Denizen is a bit of star here, as he is able to get pumped to 3/1 very consistently. After playing these cards, Token Goblins blasts in with cards that pump the whole team, such as Goblin Bushwhacker, Goblin Chieftain, and Shared Animosity. It features a go-wide strategy that emphasizes the card advantage these cards bring to the table. It does well at fighting decks that rely on targeted removal. Obviously weak to sweeper effects such as Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods, Token Goblins can also reestablish a board presence a little easier than some versions of goblins (albeit with creatures without haste and low threat density).
2. No-Lords Goblins - This is probably the most successful version of the deck. It focuses on speed and plays hasty, high-powered creatures and then finishing the job with burn spells (especially Goblin Grenade) to the face. While it may run many of the same cards that a Token Goblins list would (like Goblin Bushwhacker), it will probably run them in fewer numbers and/or be less reliant on them to win. The remainder of my post will focus on this build, since its the one I've found the most success with and I feel is best.
On Piledriver
While I love Goblin Piledriver, playing him requires you to build your deck around him. He becomes kind of a pseudo-lord, and a deck built around him feels a lot like the goblins lists I used to run that had lords. When he dies, the game plan often falls apart. I don't recommend playing him, except maybe in the sideboard if you expect Merfolk.
My No Lords List - Goblin Deck Wins
There have been a lot of discussion about which Goblins to run, but I have found that the more I run non-goblin cards, the better the deck gets. You might be surprised by some of the choices here, but give it a try and see what happens. You might think it isn't enough goblins to justify the x4 goblin grenade, but it's not. I'll post the list, explain the choices, and would love to get some feedback and fellow playtesters on MTGO going to further optimize it.
Goblin Deck Wins
1 Drop Creatures
x4 Foundry Street Denizen
x4 Goblin Guide
x4 Legion Loyalist
x4 Vexing Devil
x2 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Drop Creatures
x4 Goblin Bushwhacker
x1 Mogg War Marshal
x3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Instants/Sorceries
x2 Mutagenic Growth
x4 Lightning Bolt
x4 Goblin Grenade
x4 Atarka's Command
x2 Searing Blaze
Lands
x4 Wooded Foothills
x4 Bloodstained Mire
x3 Arid Mesa
x2 Stomping Ground
x1 Sacred Foundry
x4 Mountain
Sideboard
x4 Destructive Revelry
x3 Pyrite Spellbomb
x3 Deflecting Palm
x3 Boros Charm
x1 Smash to Smithereens
x1 Rending Volley
Explanation -
x4 Foundry Street Denizen is included because he triggers off of every creature in the deck, he doesn't care if they aren't goblins, or if its a vexing devil going straight to the graveyard he's getting PUMPED!
x4 Goblin Guide - You hate to give your opponents cards, but knowing that a bolt is coming at your favorite creature is good to know. Oh, and he's the most aggressive creature in Modern and after he's been a traitor and given your opponents cards, blow him up.
x4 Legion Loyalist - Absolute all star. There are so many times where your opponents can't/won't block due to the first striking tramping team there's no way you don't run 4 of this guy.
x4 Vexing Devil - Sometimes a one mana boros charm that pumps the denizen. Sometimes a 4/3 that your opponent waits to bolt until he attacks (and then you mutagenic growth - absolute blowout). Sometimes a turn 2 big 4/3 trampler when legion loyalist gets his batallion on. Sometimes a t3 play w/ Bushwhacker that becomes 5/3 with haste. And yes, sometimes a topdeck that you wish was something else. He's worth it.
x2 Monastery Swiftspear - The weakest card in the deck, but probably performs well enough compared to mogg fanatic or any other one-drop. It dodges bolt with mutagenic, comes in with haste, triggers foundry street, and really likes atarka's command, searing blaze, and every single card in the entire sideboard. I consider this card a flex-spot, but I tend to keep coming back to it when I test with something else.
x4 Bushwhacker - One of the best cards in the deck and really pulls the non-goblins and goblins together into a truly synergistic deck. I liked playing x3 Bushwhacker, but he's just too good and it's important to keep the goblin count up high enough for goblin grenade, so its x4 for now.
x3 Eidolon of the Great Revel - You might be thinking, there is no way this card is good enough for goblins - and I resisted it - but I gave it a try and will never turn back. Think about this... our deck is SO fast, that we are almost always ahead in life total. If you stick this card t3 card with a goblin grenade in hand, you might not have won t3, but t4 is almost a certainty. The card single-handedly destroys storm and hurts many, many other decks. It gives us game against control (very, very important) and other decks that dump lots of cards on the table. It triggers foundry street and draws removal like a lighting rod. It practically guarantees at least some damage, not something you can say for too many other creatures.
x1 Mogg War Marshal - A flex spot for the deck, MWM is a card that makes it in due to comboing so well with foundry street and bushwhacker. It's a great goblin grenade target. Lastly, it helps put some goblins on the table to prevent not having a goblin grenade target.
x2 Mutagenic - Might seem very odd, but seeing how a well placed lightning bolt sometimes is the difference between a victory or a loss, something that counters it at 0 mana is pretty huge. It saves Guide, Devil, Swiftspear, and Eidolon from a bolt. With an atarkas command, it saves all the creatures from a bolt. Play with it, you'll find its a lot better than you might think.
x4 Bolt - Shouldn't need to describe why this card is included...
x4 Goblin Grenade - The whole reason to play this deck over burn or zoo.
x4 Atarka's Command - You MUST play this card. Never consider going below 3 - ever. Being able to maindeck lifegain hate gives this deck game against a wide variety of decks and prevents you from having to sideboard liefgain hate if you don't want to. Did I mention we go very wide and play TONS of one drops? This card makes the whole deck work. It also makes vexing devil not die to bolt.
x2 Searing Blaze - Probably the only card I consider truly, 100% flex spot. Against zoo, burn, affinity, infect, and more, this card pulls some serious weight. It clears the way for your Guide. Swiftspear (triggers it too), Vexing Devil and more.
Manabase comments - Being R/G for game one allows us to often fetch basics instead of shocklands. This saves life for the matchups against aggro decks (we're playing Eidolon, too, remember?). For matchups where our life total truly doesnt matter, we have the sacred foundry to give us access to some white cards that will help us in otherwise tough matchups.
Sideboard
Pyrite Spellbomb - saves us from straight up losing to Kor Firewalker. You can safely board it in, even if you don't know they will play it, because the card isn't bad on its own. It also kills etched champion and a few other protection targets that give us fits.
Deflecting Palm - gives us game against amulet bloom, bogles, tron (think wurmcoil engine) and any deck that plays big creatures. Good against burn, but I don't like splashing for the third color in that matchup. Basically the reason to splash white.
Boros Charm - a flex spot in the sideboard, B Charm is good for those matchups where you just want to become more a burn-like deck (control and some midrange decks).
Destructive Revelry - Gotta fight affinity and decks that rely on enchantments (twin, bogles) and artifacts with something, right? D Rev is the all star!
Smash to Smithereens - Smash that amulet of vigor and other pesky artifacts with this beauty.
Rending Volley - No twin, you will not beat us on turn 4, thats OUR job.