Turn 4
Opp: Urza’s Tower, TKS attacks (I sack Mesa for a Mountain), block with Guide and Helix TKS (draw Helix), Relic into exile and draw, Endbringer.
Moi: Rift Bolt face->countered by Warping Wail. Draw Guide. Guide, attacks.
Shrine: 5
14-19
Turn 5
Opp: Endbringer draws a card, Ballista (4/4), I play Boros Charm.
Moi: draw Spike. Spike, Endbringer damages Guide, Ballista kills Guide (3/3), Helix opp.
Shrine: 9
4-25
Regarding the various options of playing cards, I believe we play Guide on turn one not simply because it causes two damage (which is less than Lava Spike), but rather due to the possibility of future damage. If unanswered for two more turns then a single mana would have contributed six damage. However, creatures can be shut out by larger creatures or simply removed, so there is considerable uncertainty as to how much damage will go through.
Therefore I am not sure why Boros Charm would be a priority in turn two over Shrine, give that Shrine is likely going to do much more than four damage during the game, and most likely will not be answered. Note additionally that the speed of damage is irrelevant any time before the opponent dies, so for instance, five damage over two turns is better than four damage in one turn if they don’t die this turn.
Finally, thanks to everyone for contributing to this forum. It is a great learning experience for me and motivates me further to explore the deck
Turn 4
Opp: Urza’s Tower, TKS attacks (I sack Mesa for a Mountain), block with Guide and Helix TKS (draw Helix), Relic into exile and draw, Endbringer.
Moi: draw Guide. Guide.
Shrine: 5
20-22
Turn 5
Opp: Endbringer draws a card, Ballista (4/4), I play Boros Charm.
Moi: draw Spike. Spike, Endbringer damages Guide, Ballista kills Guide (3/3), Helix opp.
Shrine: 9
10-25
From here you can see that the Shrine will finish the opp in turn 6 no matter what they do.
I will check the game log tomorrow and let you know the exact details. An example would be where I have say a Swiftspear and he has a 5-5 Eldrazi; I block it and then use a bolt spell to kill it off. Then I am pumping up the Shrine while holding him at bay. Otherwise, I would not be able to race and win. By the end he had two large creatures ready, but they could not outpace the Shrine damage.
In a game today against Eldrazi Tron I killed my opponent from 13 life with Helix plus a Shrine on 10. Woo, very satisfying!
It was one of those games where I had more lands than necessary and less burn spells than I would like. I doubt any other card would have won me this one since my opponent was starting to really turn up the heat by that point and was miles from death.
If it comes out early then it is a very powerful card and can leave the opponent feeling nothing but despair. And after game 1, they will be uncertain as to whether you are keeping it in or not.
On the other hand, we are better off being open about new cards coming in because if not, we will shut down the possibility of the deck ever developing. Just as the (current) lone GP win does not prove that Shrine is better than Eidolon in all cases, nor does the (currently) limited experience indicate that Shrine is strictly worse.
As such I much prefer testing over theory-crafting, because we can accidentally miss many considerations with our theories. Magic is a complex game and it seems very hard to demonstrate with reasoning alone why card A is superior than card B. I for one have no idea how the Shrine may fare, but will find out for myself over time. And even then, my results will be based on my own style of play, and my personal conclusions may differ from those of another player.
At the very least, a deck that wins a major GP has to be very good, even if it is not perfect. Winning a GP looks like very hard work! If we are not open to following up on such results with investigation then Shrine (or any other new inclusion) will have no chance at all.
Magic is the great game it is because there are few definite answers; it is in the discovery that we come to enjoy the game so much. Perhaps the ultimate Burn deck has yet to be put together- if there even is such a thing, given that the deck's success depends heavily on the other decks in the population.
To elaborate further, we usually think of the various spells in terms of cost:damage efficiency. However, there can come situations where we are short on cards in hand, and are therefore limited as to how much damage we can inflict. In these situations the Shrine is excellent at providing additional reach, as it does a massive amount of damage from a single card. Such situations are more likely where we have drawn more lands than we need to empty our hand of spells.
I decided to try out the Shrine...I play in the Modern Friendly leagues on MTGO. Prior to this I had played 60 matches with Burn, with a 50.0% win rate. Of the 10 matches I have played with the Shrine so far, I have won 7 for a 70.0% win rate. I shall keep playing on and see how it goes.
It definitely won me some games- there was one game for example where I had the opponent down to 4 life, but he sprang back up to 8, and then a Shrine on 8 finished him off. It seems excellent whenever our main plan doesn't work out perfectly, for example when we start top-decking unnecessary lands in the mid-game.
With the Eidolon (who has my favorite artwork in all of MTG), he also dominated and won me some matches, such as against UR Gifts Storm. However, in certain other matches he just got removed immediately for 2 damage to the opponent, or was not relevant at all since their spells were bigger.
It seems to me so far like the choice depends on the meta you are in, as well as the degree of variance you want to entertain. Having said that, I intend to play on to the 100th overall match to see how I perceive them thereafter.
Hi there, I'm a relatively new Burn player and am enjoying the deck enormously. I play the Boros variation.
I was wondering, are they any guides on when (not) to mulligan? Also, on sideboard plans on the play and draw against various archetypes including the mirror? Finally, are there any articles on the "trickier" aspects of play? I found these here and there, but have not seen a single collated source...I mean things like using Skullcrack to kill a Kor Firewalker via protection removal, or to negate a possible Deflecting Palm (even if cast first), that kind of thing?
[EDIT] A possible alternative would be to increase Mutagenic Growth to 4x at the expense of either a Spellskite or (more likely) an Apostle's Blessing. I keep 1x Dispel, Distortion Strike, Spell Pierce and Twisted Image, with the option of increasing any of these to 2x post sideboard, since I do not know which of these will serve best in the first game.
I just picked up a Dredge deck on MTGO; the price drops make it very cheap now (122 tix) and I do not believe for one second that the Troll banning hurts the deck in a material way.
Opening Hand
Rift Bolt, Shrine x2, Boros Charm, Arid Mesa, Vantage, Mountain
Turn 1
Opp: Eldrazi Temple.
Moi: draw Goblin Guide. Vantage, Goblin Guide (attacks).
18-20
Turn 2
Opp: Urza’s Mine.
Moi: draw Boros Charm. Mountain, Shrine, Guide attacks.
16-20
Turn 3
Opp: Urza’s Power Plant, TKS (steal Boros Charm).
Moi: draw Helix. Mesa, suspend Rift Bolt.
Shrine: 1
16-20
Turn 4
Opp: Urza’s Tower, TKS attacks (I sack Mesa for a Mountain), block with Guide and Helix TKS (draw Helix), Relic into exile and draw, Endbringer.
Moi: Rift Bolt face->countered by Warping Wail. Draw Guide. Guide, attacks.
Shrine: 5
14-19
Turn 5
Opp: Endbringer draws a card, Ballista (4/4), I play Boros Charm.
Moi: draw Spike. Spike, Endbringer damages Guide, Ballista kills Guide (3/3), Helix opp.
Shrine: 9
4-25
Regarding the various options of playing cards, I believe we play Guide on turn one not simply because it causes two damage (which is less than Lava Spike), but rather due to the possibility of future damage. If unanswered for two more turns then a single mana would have contributed six damage. However, creatures can be shut out by larger creatures or simply removed, so there is considerable uncertainty as to how much damage will go through.
Therefore I am not sure why Boros Charm would be a priority in turn two over Shrine, give that Shrine is likely going to do much more than four damage during the game, and most likely will not be answered. Note additionally that the speed of damage is irrelevant any time before the opponent dies, so for instance, five damage over two turns is better than four damage in one turn if they don’t die this turn.
Finally, thanks to everyone for contributing to this forum. It is a great learning experience for me and motivates me further to explore the deck
Here is the log of the game against Eldrazi Tron…
Opening Hand
Rift Bolt, Shrine x2, Boros Charm, Arid Mesa, Vantage, Mountain
Turn 1
Opp: Eldrazi Temple.
Moi: draw Goblin Guide. Vantage, suspend Rift Bolt.
Turn 2
Opp: Urza’s Mine.
Moi: Rift Bolt face->countered by Warping Wail. Draw Boros Charm. Mountain, Shrine.
Turn 3
Opp: Urza’s Power Plant, TKS (steal Boros Charm).
Moi: draw Helix. Mesa, Guide.
Shrine: 2
Turn 4
Opp: Urza’s Tower, TKS attacks (I sack Mesa for a Mountain), block with Guide and Helix TKS (draw Helix), Relic into exile and draw, Endbringer.
Moi: draw Guide. Guide.
Shrine: 5
20-22
Turn 5
Opp: Endbringer draws a card, Ballista (4/4), I play Boros Charm.
Moi: draw Spike. Spike, Endbringer damages Guide, Ballista kills Guide (3/3), Helix opp.
Shrine: 9
10-25
From here you can see that the Shrine will finish the opp in turn 6 no matter what they do.
It was one of those games where I had more lands than necessary and less burn spells than I would like. I doubt any other card would have won me this one since my opponent was starting to really turn up the heat by that point and was miles from death.
If it comes out early then it is a very powerful card and can leave the opponent feeling nothing but despair. And after game 1, they will be uncertain as to whether you are keeping it in or not.
As such I much prefer testing over theory-crafting, because we can accidentally miss many considerations with our theories. Magic is a complex game and it seems very hard to demonstrate with reasoning alone why card A is superior than card B. I for one have no idea how the Shrine may fare, but will find out for myself over time. And even then, my results will be based on my own style of play, and my personal conclusions may differ from those of another player.
At the very least, a deck that wins a major GP has to be very good, even if it is not perfect. Winning a GP looks like very hard work! If we are not open to following up on such results with investigation then Shrine (or any other new inclusion) will have no chance at all.
Magic is the great game it is because there are few definite answers; it is in the discovery that we come to enjoy the game so much. Perhaps the ultimate Burn deck has yet to be put together- if there even is such a thing, given that the deck's success depends heavily on the other decks in the population.
It definitely won me some games- there was one game for example where I had the opponent down to 4 life, but he sprang back up to 8, and then a Shrine on 8 finished him off. It seems excellent whenever our main plan doesn't work out perfectly, for example when we start top-decking unnecessary lands in the mid-game.
With the Eidolon (who has my favorite artwork in all of MTG), he also dominated and won me some matches, such as against UR Gifts Storm. However, in certain other matches he just got removed immediately for 2 damage to the opponent, or was not relevant at all since their spells were bigger.
It seems to me so far like the choice depends on the meta you are in, as well as the degree of variance you want to entertain. Having said that, I intend to play on to the 100th overall match to see how I perceive them thereafter.
I was wondering, are they any guides on when (not) to mulligan? Also, on sideboard plans on the play and draw against various archetypes including the mirror? Finally, are there any articles on the "trickier" aspects of play? I found these here and there, but have not seen a single collated source...I mean things like using Skullcrack to kill a Kor Firewalker via protection removal, or to negate a possible Deflecting Palm (even if cast first), that kind of thing?
Bear in mind that I am quite a new player, and usually only go around 2-3 in friendly leagues with Infect and Dredge
Turn Aside looks great! Which spells does it NOT catch?
The other card, I could not find on the databases?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/508179#online
[EDIT] A possible alternative would be to increase Mutagenic Growth to 4x at the expense of either a Spellskite or (more likely) an Apostle's Blessing. I keep 1x Dispel, Distortion Strike, Spell Pierce and Twisted Image, with the option of increasing any of these to 2x post sideboard, since I do not know which of these will serve best in the first game.
Get 'em while they're hot