Thanks, dustycrumz. Last league was against sultai midrange, mardu phoenix, living end, mono red phoenix, and esper gifts. The league before that, I think I remember spirits, tron, and storm.
All these phoenix decks are great matchups. Damping sphere is good in so many matches now.
The nobody's, I got you up via pm and would appreciate any insight you could give me
I've been running two Surgical Extraction as my graveyard-hate of choice lately. It's nice because it costs no mana (tempo!) and hits a wide variety of decks with particularly troubling cards. Other options, like Relic of Progenitus, just feel a bit too slow most of the time.
However, I saw the success of dredge at the SCG Open last weekend. My shop has a lot of ex-dredge players and I wouldn't be surprised if I see a lot of dredge decks for a month. This has me asking what I should include in the side-board.
Our main-deck plan of burning some of their creatures, countering some of their spells and trying to win with tempo mostly works, but Creeping Chill really makes that annoying because they randomly get a few uncounterable Lightning Helix.
The options seem to be:
Surgical Extraction - Still probably a great card. I'm running 2, maybe should go up to 3.
Relic of Progenitus - A bit slow, but replaces itself. The first mode is basically useless against Dredge.
Graffdigger's Cage - A strong card, but uses up a draw. Probably the most "permanent" solution. However, it doesn't affect many other decks that are popular right now.
Magma Spray - I'm running two of these anyhow. I was thinking of swapping for a different removal spell, but exile is more important than ever.
Lava Coil - It's a new one that hits a little harder than a bolt and has that exile clause. Can do double-duty against larger creatures and recursion.
I am pretty new to the modern Dredge archetype and thinking about playing the deck at my fnm.
I have seen that there are 2 Dredge decks in modern
"normal" Dredge and Dredgevine
"Normal" Dredge seems to be a lot more poplular. What is the difference between dredge and dredgevine?
Your best bet would be get your info on normal dredge here and go to the dredgevine forum to get info on that deck.
So I have been testing out Decandio's 4c version of the deck and while it certainly has a higher power ceiling, I'm not sure if I like sacrificing the consistency we have enjoyed with straight Mardu. While Traverse and BBE were amazing IMO, playing cards like Bauble and Architects of Will hampered the gameplan too much at times leaving you with fewer instants and sorceries in yard. This led to worse Pyromancers and Revelers as well. I also feel that 18 lands was pure lunacy to try to actively cast 4 drops. So last night I decided to do a bit of combining of the two. This is ofcourse a non-blood moon version of the deck because you are splashing for 2 colors (green and white). White is literally just Lingering Souls and sideboard cards and Green is just Bloodbraid Elf and sideboard cards. It worked extremely well last night. BBE was good as advertised. The only time I was a little sad to see it was the more niche situations where you are empty handed and cascade into a faithless looting. Maybe it's right to just looting anyway on the off chance of binning more lootings and souls but I opted not to last night, maybe that's wrong. Gonna need some more testing. It's the same Mardu we know and love but I ran into very few games where I ran out of threats. The burn matchup is hurt a little by not running fast lands and instead relying on fetches and shocks but it did not feel that much worse than usual because BBE did help close out games in a quicker fashion than normal Mardu does consistently. I will admit I only played burn 3 times last night in my limited jamming and the players I played were... not the best (one had double skullcrack with Kambul out and decided to cast the 2nd one with the first on the stack after the Kambul trigger had already resolved. Thanks guy.) but none of the games where there was an obvious misplay seemed to actually cost them games. One game in particular (the one with the skullcrack play mentioned above) he was probably a <10% out but that play made it 0.
I think Grim Flayer is the better Green Splash to go along with traverse in place of BBE. Bauble, Looting, a bunch of kill spells, and discard arent exactly prime BBE targets, ideally he would hit a souls or kcmd but thats just not going to happen as often. On the other hand, Grim Flayer always helps your deck by filling your yard and filtering your draws.... It plays so nicely into this graveyard based deck.
The 4 color list obviously increases your ability to pressure the opponent and assist with turning the corner from controlling the board to beating down more consistently but at the same time hampers our consistency in mana. I believe either Baubles or Manamorphoses(your choice) are necessary to running this complex mana base(i have chosen baubles as I have slowly been converting into a larger delirium based deck and have also chosen to go up to 19 lands to help combat some inconsistencies while most 4c lists only run 18.
With the increase in 2 drop threats we just dont have room for brutalities MD which really only hurts us vs burn, however a 4/4 on t2-4 that closes games faster and helps filter our draws usually makes up for it. This matchup is definitely still a little worse thanks to the mana as you mentioned though regardless of what green creatures we are playing.
I found myself pitching KCMD way to often or just delaying a great reveler because i wanted to get value out of the command first so im currently testing a whopping 0 kcmds. I think the increase in threat density from traverse allows us to get away with foregoing the buyback kcmd provides.
I'm currently toying with the landbase as I want to try and get to the 4 colors as quickly and efficiently as possible, both Stomping > Godless Shrine and Blood Crypt > Temple garden get us all our colors and casts all our spells outside terminate. But the 3rd land just needs red and were set.
Kiki is actually looking very good right now. The resurgence of jund and ucontrol has pushed a lot of the non interactive combo like storm out of the limelight.
Hey all, attempting to shout out and see if the MTGO player "Kurusu" is a member on these forums. 3 5-0's in February with very classic naya chord style lists. Would love to chat with them.
After playing Bant Knightfall and having a playset Bloodbraid Elf I gave Naya Zoo a try. This is my list - The sideboard is on the head so it's not 100% accurate:
First of all the lacking of Tarmogoyf - no moneyz fo dat - also I think it's better in BGx shells because they're running more Sorceries and your opponent discards other types in the yard. Scavenging Ooze - my Goyf "replacement". Everytime I untapped with Ooze it won me the game. Bloodbraid Elf - holy cow! The worst hit was a Noble Hierarch but that's ok as we get a Exalted trigger, mana and another body. Bloodbraid was also good against UWx decks because my opponent had to decide which spell he wants to counter. Really good card! Loxodon Smiter - put 4 copies in the main in expectation of UWx, Jund and one guy playing 8-Rack I don't want to lose to - Boltproof body was sometimes better on turn 2 then a Knight of the Reliquary. Against aggrodecks it was a solid blocker!
What was no that good?
No card draw. Unfortunately the +1 is only look at the top card. A scry would be just insane. Tireless Tracker is a good card but for now I'm not sold on Tracker instead of Smiter
Tron: got badly beat up by tron Bant Knightfall gave me Reflector Mage which I'm missing. Maybe put some Molten Rain in the board to cascade in.
No basic Mountain: it cost me a game against UWR Control... added one basic mountain in my list
Lightning Helix was in fact the "worst card" in the deck. I would consider this as my flexslots - I'll try 2x Atarka's Command or 2x Boros Charm... closing out games with burn is just to good!
I have to build a propper sideboard. What would you recommend against Token/go-wide strategies like UR Pyromancer or Elves. Are 4 Bolts enough to handle them or is a "mass removal" needed?
Bolts, helix, paths plus a couple grim lavamancers and I like a1 of flame jabto pair with kotr all do the trick vs elves and other swarm strategies.
You can also consider 1-2 Domri Rade for "removal" and "card draw"
Is it fair to say that we're one of the biggest beneficiaries of this Unban? It seems both Jace and Bloodbraid Elf are viable in our deck, albeit in different versions. I think Jace should drop in price a bit after M25, so I'm looking forward to getting a couple of copies.
Well we benefit from the fact that Jace and BBE fit in both bant Knightfall, bant company, and 4c retreat so we are fortunate enough to slot them in and see how it works. Only time will tell. Personally I'm currently testing 4c retreat with bolts and bbe instead of Coco.
Any chance I could get a bit of help from you with the following question? I have one modern deck, but am looking for something a bit more competitive than what I play now. I really liked playing zoo on mtgo and with the unbanning of bbe, it seems the deck got a good boost. I've been eyeing the following list:
Since I don't have much modern cards, I could build it over a couple of months, but Hierarchs are totally out of question for now until the next reprint. Would you mind commenting, how much of competitiveness would the deck lose if I swap Hierarchs for Birds? I know that mana fixing + exalted of the hierarch has no alternatives in Modern, but would it lose say only 10-15% of the potential, and I could still be playing it comfortably, or it is better not to try it at all, unless I have all the cards? And I am sure I would get the Hierarchs within a year or with the next reprint, just not now.
It's a good starting point. It will be totally playable with birds. As someone who has done some testing renegade rallier isn't very good neither is lingering souls in zoo. Take a look at other good 3 drops in our colors like tireless tracker, loxodon smiter, kitchen Finks, and others.
Hey! I've been lurking for a while on the zoo subforum, I am new to the deck and the unban of bbe made me wanna jump into it. I think I will start with the list that Lantern posted a few days ago. I will invest in a playset of Tarmogoyf but it's going to take some time . I know there is no real replacement for it but as temporary one I was thinking at Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
What do you think?
Just use Flinthoof boar. 3/3 for 2 or 3/3 haste for 3 is good vs Jace and lot.
Looking to try this out tonight at my LGS, ill let you all know how it goes but in the meantime would love some feedback. Its basically an aggressively slanted 4C Knightfall.
As for the choices, its meant to get out of the gate pretty fast while abusing a lot of synergy here with geopede/rallier, rallier/seal of fire, bloodbraid/retreat, and as always the combo. Rallier also provides a way to get back important oozes or to a lesser extent geopedes vs removal heavy shells. The seal of fire is good re-playable removal that can also trigger revolt in a pinch. The manabase is basically a copy of some old Eli 4c retreat lists and the sideboard is in constant flux.
It sacrifices value and grind for a more explosive start all while maintaining the combo.
So had 16 players and I had a rough time....
Rd 1: RUG Scapeshift. He was the owner of the store and a dedicated scapeshift player for a long time. Plays with 3 maindeck sweltering suns, and notably a bunch of repeals MD. G1 I had to mull to 5 and even then had no play till t3. This was lost before I started. G2 I was able to apply some pressure with Plated Geopede but ultimately Steve Blocks and Repeals keeping me untapped with KOTR stalled long enough. Quick 0-2
Rd 2: Mono Red Prison. G1 he gets out T1 Bloodmoon but I had 2 plated Geopede in hand and a bunch of lands... I applied some pressure until he finally found a bridge, but I found a couple basic lands and just bloodbraided into enough burn to finish him off. G2 he had a much slower start and tried to do a bit more interacting killing off my dorks but I closed the game quickly with 2 8/8 KOTR vs his Hazoret as he did not find a bridge. Quick 2-0
Rd 3: Boros Burn. G1 he had an insane hand and finished me off T4 with Boros Charm, Bolt, Bolt.... G2 I stalled him for a long time as he wasted some burn on dorks while I played Eidolon and also got to ghost quarter, renegade rallier, ghost quarter him out of white mana. This however, was all fun and cute except I was applying little to no pressure. Quick 0-2
Rd 4: Mardu Pyromancer. These games are a bit of a blur but very good games. Izzet staticaster and Flame job made winning post SB very difficult for him. I went 2-1 and both games were won through large KOTR. I did get to cast Keranos 1 game but it was a turn to late and still died to a bunch of souls.
Overall thoughts:
Plated Geopede was cute... It should almost certainly be voice of resurgence as I need something to punish others for playing on my turn and provide a consistent large body through removal(token).
Without Geopede I dont think the rallier, seal of fire package is worthwhile. I cascaded into Rallier once and had no way to activate revolt and that felt bad. With voices as a way to fight through removal heavy decks I think I can turn the Ralliers into something a bit more interactive. I want to try out Reflector Mage here to act as Psuedo Removal in place of the seals with a body for pressure attached.
The seals then leave anything open and I have considered a lot here but there is really only 1 card that really hedges vs tron and scapeshift varients. I'm going to try 2 Geist of Saint Traft here and see if I cant get good use out of it with 4 bolt, 3 path, 3 reflector mage.
Lastly, my SB was a mess. I felt hopeless to burn and sweepers. The forge Tenders are often a perfect swap for 3 BOP. New version of the deck should be even to favorable vs most of the field except where I think I am still going to be facing an uphill battle vs tron and scapeshift.
Looking to try this out tonight at my LGS, ill let you all know how it goes but in the meantime would love some feedback. Its basically an aggressively slanted 4C Knightfall.
As for the choices, its meant to get out of the gate pretty fast while abusing a lot of synergy here with geopede/rallier, rallier/seal of fire, bloodbraid/retreat, and as always the combo. Rallier also provides a way to get back important oozes or to a lesser extent geopedes vs removal heavy shells. The seal of fire is good re-playable removal that can also trigger revolt in a pinch. The manabase is basically a copy of some old Eli 4c retreat lists and the sideboard is in constant flux.
It sacrifices value and grind for a more explosive start all while maintaining the combo.
Was a very pleasant surprise to read through the new batch of 5-0 Competitive League decks and see an almost identical maindeck list to the one I posted earlier (-1 Qasali -2 VoR, +2 Selfless Spirit +1 Scooze)
I unfortunately have to miss FNM this week, hope to hear more about success with BBE Knightfall, I've been having a huge amount of fun with it.
Your list and this one above have officially peaked my interest. How many games have you been able to run through with it? How do you find its matchups vs top tier decks such as Affinity, Burn, Jund, Tron, Non-interactive combo such as storm or ad naus, go wide strategies like elves or merfolk?
A couple questions in addition, I have no testing or experience so feel free to tear them apart:
Path vs Helix... any merits to running more great BBE hits in Helix?
Some number of tracker/Courser and Ooze/voice/spirit vs aggressive threats like Mantis Rider in the 3 spot or goyf or some other aggresive 2 drop in the 2cmc spots?
I was actually considering Tracker and Copter in the flex slots for a build without BBE (which I'm not convinced about for this deck).
Thicket works much better with the manarocks over the dorks so it is probably a slightly different approach to the deck.
With 4x Talisman I can see some number of Mutavault (or Ghost Quarter) as an option for the deck for some more utility.
With Ancient Stirrings I think that having less than 4x Caverns is ok since you can dig for them if it gets countered it means less counters for the creatures.
I agree that an elfless dorkless build changes everything specifically making thicket much better. I still don't like copter or tracker in this build though.
The nobody's, I got you up via pm and would appreciate any insight you could give me
Cage shuts off your snaps. Consider Ravenous Trap or Surgical Extraction in addition to Magma Spray.
Your best bet would be get your info on normal dredge here and go to the dredgevine forum to get info on that deck.
I think Grim Flayer is the better Green Splash to go along with traverse in place of BBE. Bauble, Looting, a bunch of kill spells, and discard arent exactly prime BBE targets, ideally he would hit a souls or kcmd but thats just not going to happen as often. On the other hand, Grim Flayer always helps your deck by filling your yard and filtering your draws.... It plays so nicely into this graveyard based deck.
The 4 color list obviously increases your ability to pressure the opponent and assist with turning the corner from controlling the board to beating down more consistently but at the same time hampers our consistency in mana. I believe either Baubles or Manamorphoses(your choice) are necessary to running this complex mana base(i have chosen baubles as I have slowly been converting into a larger delirium based deck and have also chosen to go up to 19 lands to help combat some inconsistencies while most 4c lists only run 18.
With the increase in 2 drop threats we just dont have room for brutalities MD which really only hurts us vs burn, however a 4/4 on t2-4 that closes games faster and helps filter our draws usually makes up for it. This matchup is definitely still a little worse thanks to the mana as you mentioned though regardless of what green creatures we are playing.
I found myself pitching KCMD way to often or just delaying a great reveler because i wanted to get value out of the command first so im currently testing a whopping 0 kcmds. I think the increase in threat density from traverse allows us to get away with foregoing the buyback kcmd provides.
I'm currently toying with the landbase as I want to try and get to the 4 colors as quickly and efficiently as possible, both Stomping > Godless Shrine and Blood Crypt > Temple garden get us all our colors and casts all our spells outside terminate. But the 3rd land just needs red and were set.
4 Bedlam Reveler
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Swamp
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Stomping Ground
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lingering Souls
2 Terminate
4 Faithless Looting
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Collective Brutality
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Mogis, God of Slaughter
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Molten Rain
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Kurusu
Bolts, helix, paths plus a couple grim lavamancers and I like a1 of flame jabto pair with kotr all do the trick vs elves and other swarm strategies.
You can also consider 1-2 Domri Rade for "removal" and "card draw"
Well we benefit from the fact that Jace and BBE fit in both bant Knightfall, bant company, and 4c retreat so we are fortunate enough to slot them in and see how it works. Only time will tell. Personally I'm currently testing 4c retreat with bolts and bbe instead of Coco.
It's a good starting point. It will be totally playable with birds. As someone who has done some testing renegade rallier isn't very good neither is lingering souls in zoo. Take a look at other good 3 drops in our colors like tireless tracker, loxodon smiter, kitchen Finks, and others.
Just use Flinthoof boar. 3/3 for 2 or 3/3 haste for 3 is good vs Jace and lot.
So had 16 players and I had a rough time....
Rd 1: RUG Scapeshift. He was the owner of the store and a dedicated scapeshift player for a long time. Plays with 3 maindeck sweltering suns, and notably a bunch of repeals MD. G1 I had to mull to 5 and even then had no play till t3. This was lost before I started. G2 I was able to apply some pressure with Plated Geopede but ultimately Steve Blocks and Repeals keeping me untapped with KOTR stalled long enough. Quick 0-2
Rd 2: Mono Red Prison. G1 he gets out T1 Bloodmoon but I had 2 plated Geopede in hand and a bunch of lands... I applied some pressure until he finally found a bridge, but I found a couple basic lands and just bloodbraided into enough burn to finish him off. G2 he had a much slower start and tried to do a bit more interacting killing off my dorks but I closed the game quickly with 2 8/8 KOTR vs his Hazoret as he did not find a bridge. Quick 2-0
Rd 3: Boros Burn. G1 he had an insane hand and finished me off T4 with Boros Charm, Bolt, Bolt.... G2 I stalled him for a long time as he wasted some burn on dorks while I played Eidolon and also got to ghost quarter, renegade rallier, ghost quarter him out of white mana. This however, was all fun and cute except I was applying little to no pressure. Quick 0-2
Rd 4: Mardu Pyromancer. These games are a bit of a blur but very good games. Izzet staticaster and Flame job made winning post SB very difficult for him. I went 2-1 and both games were won through large KOTR. I did get to cast Keranos 1 game but it was a turn to late and still died to a bunch of souls.
Overall thoughts:
Plated Geopede was cute... It should almost certainly be voice of resurgence as I need something to punish others for playing on my turn and provide a consistent large body through removal(token).
Without Geopede I dont think the rallier, seal of fire package is worthwhile. I cascaded into Rallier once and had no way to activate revolt and that felt bad. With voices as a way to fight through removal heavy decks I think I can turn the Ralliers into something a bit more interactive. I want to try out Reflector Mage here to act as Psuedo Removal in place of the seals with a body for pressure attached.
The seals then leave anything open and I have considered a lot here but there is really only 1 card that really hedges vs tron and scapeshift varients. I'm going to try 2 Geist of Saint Traft here and see if I cant get good use out of it with 4 bolt, 3 path, 3 reflector mage.
Lastly, my SB was a mess. I felt hopeless to burn and sweepers. The forge Tenders are often a perfect swap for 3 BOP. New version of the deck should be even to favorable vs most of the field except where I think I am still going to be facing an uphill battle vs tron and scapeshift.
Suggestions welcome!
Updated list:
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Reflector Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Path to Exile
4 Voice of Resurgence
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Izzet Staticaster
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Stony Silence
1 Flame Jab
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Renegade Rallier
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Seal of Fire
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Path to Exile
4 Plated Geopede
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Stony Silence
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Flame Jab
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
As for the choices, its meant to get out of the gate pretty fast while abusing a lot of synergy here with geopede/rallier, rallier/seal of fire, bloodbraid/retreat, and as always the combo. Rallier also provides a way to get back important oozes or to a lesser extent geopedes vs removal heavy shells. The seal of fire is good re-playable removal that can also trigger revolt in a pinch. The manabase is basically a copy of some old Eli 4c retreat lists and the sideboard is in constant flux.
It sacrifices value and grind for a more explosive start all while maintaining the combo.
Your list and this one above have officially peaked my interest. How many games have you been able to run through with it? How do you find its matchups vs top tier decks such as Affinity, Burn, Jund, Tron, Non-interactive combo such as storm or ad naus, go wide strategies like elves or merfolk?
A couple questions in addition, I have no testing or experience so feel free to tear them apart:
Path vs Helix... any merits to running more great BBE hits in Helix?
Some number of tracker/Courser and Ooze/voice/spirit vs aggressive threats like Mantis Rider in the 3 spot or goyf or some other aggresive 2 drop in the 2cmc spots?
I agree that an elfless dorkless build changes everything specifically making thicket much better. I still don't like copter or tracker in this build though.
Cavern is much better at curving v noble into bbe than thicket. You have to remember cavern can help you cast any colored creature.
Also in an anticipated Jace blue deck metagame I will have my 4 caverns until I see a reason not to.