Awesome! Thanks for those CR sections. Yeah, I know it's not a legal card, just wondering if something like this would work. Good connection with bringing in the double faced cards!
I'm wondering if I would be able to cast Spellmorph Raise Dead from the graveyard as a morph creature with Toshiro Umezawa's trigger.
His trigger only cares about the card being an instant card, which Spellmorph Raise Dead is when it's in the graveyard. And Spellmorph Raise Dead just states that you may cast it as a morph creature. It seems to me like this would be legal.
Yeah, that's fair. Don't want to double post, so maybe I'll wait for an admin to move it.
In the meantime, would there even need to be new rules made to have this phrasing work? That's kind of what I was looking to ask with this post. If this phrasing was valid within the current rules. If the simple answer is not, then that's fine.
This is a bit more out there since it doesn't involve an existing card, but I was working on some custom cards where this came up, and would like to check if this wording would work within the confines of the current rules.
Effect: "Copy target spell. You may choose new targets for the copy. If the copy would become a permanent, create a token that's a copy of it instead."
Here, I'm using wording from Twincast and the reminder text in Perplexing Chimera.
Rule 706.10a is relevant here: If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist. These are state-based actions. See rule 704.
If I read this correctly, then the copy of the permanent spell would still attempt to enter the battlefield, but the moment it would do so, it ceases to exist. So the the phrase "if the copy would become a permanent" is valid and would cause that part of the effect to trigger (the "if" is true). The "instead" at the end is probably not required (because the spell would cease to exist and you'd still have a token), but I added it in there for clarity to make it more defined that the copy of the spell never actually attempts to enter the battlefield, because a token is created instead.
There is precedent to making copies of objects that create objects of a different type (see Body Double, copy of a card here becomes a permanent), where the same rule referenced above is relevant.
Does anyone have a thought on this?
Thanks!
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I also used phrasing for the token copy from Eternalize, which is another example of a copy of a card (as opposed to a permanent) becoming a token (itself a permanent):
Exile this card from your graveyard: Create a token that's a copy of it, except it's a 4/4 black Zombie Cat with no mana cost. Eternalize only as a sorcery.
I think my point might have gotten lost somewhere with the last few responses: I'm glad about the discard being written on there. That's not what I was noting. If it only said "discard a card," it would work with all extant cycling variants, so what I'm saying is that the added word "cycling" is what feels unnecessary. I can appreciate if its on there for clarifying reasons, but I haven't noticed WotC printing cards like that. They would usually clarify that cycling is discarding via a reminder text on the common and uncommon cards, and leave the reminder off of the rares and mythics.
I think it's more they are getting better at making sure cards work going forward. For example, what if they print a card that lets you cycle from the top of your library. Would that be discarding? No, so it wouldn't work with stuff like this.
I must admit, one thing going against Lifecycling is the wording of "Whenever you cycle or discard [a/another] card...", which implies that it must be a card and technically cannot be a permanent. They could always adjust the meaning of 'card' as used in this context without it getting too confusing. I imagine if they did use Lifecycling it would only go on creatures, though I could see lands as being considered to have life in them (Nissa says yes creatively and functionally).
Yeah, that's a good point, and I noticed that too, but was hoping that it was just worded that way as a shortcut to make it not too wordy. Cards are cards only in the hand, graveyard, exile, and the library. I expect that cycling from the graveyard wouldn't return the cycled card to the graveyard, so that's out. Cycling from exile is probably not going to happen either, though that would be pretty interesting. Cycling from the library is possible, but that form of cycling likely won't be printed on the card that you end up cycling, just like Manifest didn't appear on the cards that you generally ended up manifesting. I can imagine the phrasing "Cycle the top card of your library." There are a few cards that might point to self-milling be a broader mechanic (and cycling the top card of your library would be an interesting new variant): Embalm works nicely with it, Aftermath does as well. There are cards that use it: Naga Oracle, Winds of Rebuke, Liliana, Death's Majesty, Benefaction of Rhonas, and Embalmer's Tools.
So, looking at cards like Archfiend of Ifnir and Faith of the Devoted, with the wording of "whenever you cycle or discard a card [effect]," I think there is essentially no other option but to have a variant of cycling that does not consist of the discarding of cards. Seeing that Shadow of the Grave returns cycled cards, that means that the variant of cycling will result in cards going to the grave. My assumption is that it will be like the Urza's Destiny "cycle from play by sacrificing" cards, like Yavimaya Elder, Slinking Skirge, Plague Dogs, and others. Here is an article where MaRo discusses cycling (from LONG ago), stating that those cards were intended to use the term "cycling," but the idea was scrapped.
Essentially, the "whenever you cycle or discard a card [effect]" phrasing is redundant for all forms of cycling that currently exists (as cycling consists of discarding, so writing "discard a card" would have been enough), and Magic tries to minimize redundant wording. If they only wrote "cycles a card," then it would work with all existent and future variants of cycling, but not with other forms of discard. Thus, in order to make it work with all forms of discard and all forms of cycling, the wording they used is necessary, but only if a future variant of cycling does not entail discarding the card.
Leonin Weapon Collector1GW
Creature - Cat Warrior
Stockpile (G/W)(At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay (G/W). If you do, put a stockpile counter on this permanent.)
Leonin Weapon Collector gets +1/+0 for each stockpile counter on it.
3/3
Energy Bomb2
Artifact
Stockpile - Pay E(At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay E. If you do, put a stockpile counter on this permanent.)
Whenever there are 5 or more stockpile counters on Energy Bomb, sacrifice it. It deals 5 damage to each creature and each player.
Bloodkeeper1B
Creature - Vampire Shaman
Stockpile B(At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay B. If you do, put a stockpile counter on this permanent.)
Whenever a creature an opponent controls dies, that player loses life equal to the number of stockpile counters on Bloodkeeper.
2/1
---
Next: Exhaust [target object] (Tap it. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Note: This is a keyword action like Detain or Goad.
Filomena, Hexspewer Witch2BB
Legendary Creature - Hag Shaman
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, bewitch defending player. (That player creates a colorless Hex enchantment token with "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay 1 and sacrifice this enchantment. If you don't, you lose 1 life.")
2/3
---
Next: A commander that has a Shared Fate-like ability.
Rhys, Disciple of Colfenor1(B/G)(G/W)
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior
When Rhys enters the battlefield, target creature gets -1/-1 for each Elf card in your graveyard.
When Rhys leaves the battlefield, gain 1 life for each creature that left the battlefield this turn.
Whenever a Treefolk enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay GG. If you do, return Rhys from your graveyard to your hand.
2/2
Not sure what Persuade/Coerce are, so will make up something for it... will also tack on Renown from void_nothing.
Persuade (Untap it and gain control of it until end of turn. You may activate its abilities as though it had haste. It can't be sacrificed.)
---
Beguiling Clique3UU
Creature - Faerie Wizard
Flying
Renown 1 (When this creature deals combat damage to a player, if it isn't renowned, put a +1/+1 counter on it and it becomes renowned.) UU: Persuade target creature you don't control. Use this ability only if Beguiling Clique is renowned. (Untap it and gain control of it until end of turn. You may activate its abilities as though it had haste. It can't be sacrificed.)
3/3
Seek Consul1WU
Enchantment
At the beginning of your turn, persuade target creature you don't control. (Untap it and gain control of it until end of turn. You may activate its abilities as though it had haste. It can't be sacrificed.)
Blade of the Mighty2
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+0 and has first strike.
As long as equipped creature is renowned, it gets an additional +1/+1 and has trample.
Equip 3
---
Next: Intrepid (This creature has indestructible as long as it attacked this turn.)
No worries, my mechanic wasn't all that original either.
Going to use my Recycle from a few months ago...
Recycle {cost} ({cost}, Exile this card from your graveyard: The next spell you cast this turn that shares a card type with this card costs up to X less to cast, where X is this card's converted mana cost.)
Note: Added in "this turn," which should have been there in the first place.
---
Rock ThrowR
Tribal Sorcery - Giant
Rock Throw deals 2 damage to target creature. That creature must block up to one target Giant creature you control this turn if able.
Recycle - Sacrifice a Mountain. (Sacrifice a Mountain, Exile Rock Throw from your graveyard: The next tribal or sorcery spell you cast this turn costs up to 1 less to cast.)
Golgari Priestess1BG
Creature - Zombie Elf Druid
Whenever Golgari Priestess deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it. If you do, return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
Recycle - Sacrifice two creatures. (Sacrifice two creatures, Exile Golgari Priestess from your graveyard: The next creature spell you cast this turn costs up to 3 less to cast.)
3/2
Pain Converter2B
Artifact XB, Sacrifice Pain Converter: Target player loses X life.
Recycle - B, Pay 3 life. (B, Pay 3 life, Exile Pain Converter from your graveyard: The next artifact spell you cast this turn costs up to 3 less to cast.)
---
Next: Taunt (At least one creature attacks you each combat if able for each creature with taunt you control.)
Spellmorph Raise Dead
I'm wondering if I would be able to cast Spellmorph Raise Dead from the graveyard as a morph creature with Toshiro Umezawa's trigger.
His trigger only cares about the card being an instant card, which Spellmorph Raise Dead is when it's in the graveyard. And Spellmorph Raise Dead just states that you may cast it as a morph creature. It seems to me like this would be legal.
Thoughts?
Thanks!
In the meantime, would there even need to be new rules made to have this phrasing work? That's kind of what I was looking to ask with this post. If this phrasing was valid within the current rules. If the simple answer is not, then that's fine.
Thanks!
Effect:
"Copy target spell. You may choose new targets for the copy. If the copy would become a permanent, create a token that's a copy of it instead."
Here, I'm using wording from Twincast and the reminder text in Perplexing Chimera.
Rule 706.10a is relevant here: If a copy of a spell is in a zone other than the stack, it ceases to exist. If a copy of a card is in any zone other than the stack or the battlefield, it ceases to exist. These are state-based actions. See rule 704.
If I read this correctly, then the copy of the permanent spell would still attempt to enter the battlefield, but the moment it would do so, it ceases to exist. So the the phrase "if the copy would become a permanent" is valid and would cause that part of the effect to trigger (the "if" is true). The "instead" at the end is probably not required (because the spell would cease to exist and you'd still have a token), but I added it in there for clarity to make it more defined that the copy of the spell never actually attempts to enter the battlefield, because a token is created instead.
There is precedent to making copies of objects that create objects of a different type (see Body Double, copy of a card here becomes a permanent), where the same rule referenced above is relevant.
Does anyone have a thought on this?
Thanks!
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I also used phrasing for the token copy from Eternalize, which is another example of a copy of a card (as opposed to a permanent) becoming a token (itself a permanent):
Exile this card from your graveyard: Create a token that's a copy of it, except it's a 4/4 black Zombie Cat with no mana cost. Eternalize only as a sorcery.
I'm a bit disappointed. Seems it really was just for the sake of clarity and to tie the two blocks together.
Seems we both came to the same conclusion.
Yeah, that's a good point, and I noticed that too, but was hoping that it was just worded that way as a shortcut to make it not too wordy. Cards are cards only in the hand, graveyard, exile, and the library. I expect that cycling from the graveyard wouldn't return the cycled card to the graveyard, so that's out. Cycling from exile is probably not going to happen either, though that would be pretty interesting. Cycling from the library is possible, but that form of cycling likely won't be printed on the card that you end up cycling, just like Manifest didn't appear on the cards that you generally ended up manifesting. I can imagine the phrasing "Cycle the top card of your library." There are a few cards that might point to self-milling be a broader mechanic (and cycling the top card of your library would be an interesting new variant): Embalm works nicely with it, Aftermath does as well. There are cards that use it: Naga Oracle, Winds of Rebuke, Liliana, Death's Majesty, Benefaction of Rhonas, and Embalmer's Tools.
That would be awesome!
Essentially, the "whenever you cycle or discard a card [effect]" phrasing is redundant for all forms of cycling that currently exists (as cycling consists of discarding, so writing "discard a card" would have been enough), and Magic tries to minimize redundant wording. If they only wrote "cycles a card," then it would work with all existent and future variants of cycling, but not with other forms of discard. Thus, in order to make it work with all forms of discard and all forms of cycling, the wording they used is necessary, but only if a future variant of cycling does not entail discarding the card.
Did anyone else notice this?
Creature - Cat Warrior
Stockpile (G/W) (At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay (G/W). If you do, put a stockpile counter on this permanent.)
Leonin Weapon Collector gets +1/+0 for each stockpile counter on it.
3/3
Energy Bomb 2
Artifact
Stockpile - Pay E (At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay E. If you do, put a stockpile counter on this permanent.)
Whenever there are 5 or more stockpile counters on Energy Bomb, sacrifice it. It deals 5 damage to each creature and each player.
Bloodkeeper 1B
Creature - Vampire Shaman
Stockpile B (At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay B. If you do, put a stockpile counter on this permanent.)
Whenever a creature an opponent controls dies, that player loses life equal to the number of stockpile counters on Bloodkeeper.
2/1
---
Next: Exhaust [target object] (Tap it. It doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step.)
Note: This is a keyword action like Detain or Goad.
Legendary Creature - Hag Shaman
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, bewitch defending player. (That player creates a colorless Hex enchantment token with "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay 1 and sacrifice this enchantment. If you don't, you lose 1 life.")
2/3
---
Next: A commander that has a Shared Fate-like ability.
Legendary Creature - Elf Warrior
When Rhys enters the battlefield, target creature gets -1/-1 for each Elf card in your graveyard.
When Rhys leaves the battlefield, gain 1 life for each creature that left the battlefield this turn.
Whenever a Treefolk enters the battlefield under your control, you may pay GG. If you do, return Rhys from your graveyard to your hand.
2/2
---
Next: A mono-colored commander that would partner well with Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper.
Persuade (Untap it and gain control of it until end of turn. You may activate its abilities as though it had haste. It can't be sacrificed.)
---
Beguiling Clique 3UU
Creature - Faerie Wizard
Flying
Renown 1 (When this creature deals combat damage to a player, if it isn't renowned, put a +1/+1 counter on it and it becomes renowned.)
UU: Persuade target creature you don't control. Use this ability only if Beguiling Clique is renowned. (Untap it and gain control of it until end of turn. You may activate its abilities as though it had haste. It can't be sacrificed.)
3/3
Seek Consul 1WU
Enchantment
At the beginning of your turn, persuade target creature you don't control. (Untap it and gain control of it until end of turn. You may activate its abilities as though it had haste. It can't be sacrificed.)
Blade of the Mighty 2
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+0 and has first strike.
As long as equipped creature is renowned, it gets an additional +1/+1 and has trample.
Equip 3
---
Next: Intrepid (This creature has indestructible as long as it attacked this turn.)
Going to use my Recycle from a few months ago...
Recycle {cost} ({cost}, Exile this card from your graveyard: The next spell you cast this turn that shares a card type with this card costs up to X less to cast, where X is this card's converted mana cost.)
Note: Added in "this turn," which should have been there in the first place.
---
Rock Throw R
Tribal Sorcery - Giant
Rock Throw deals 2 damage to target creature. That creature must block up to one target Giant creature you control this turn if able.
Recycle - Sacrifice a Mountain. (Sacrifice a Mountain, Exile Rock Throw from your graveyard: The next tribal or sorcery spell you cast this turn costs up to 1 less to cast.)
Golgari Priestess 1BG
Creature - Zombie Elf Druid
Whenever Golgari Priestess deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it. If you do, return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
Recycle - Sacrifice two creatures. (Sacrifice two creatures, Exile Golgari Priestess from your graveyard: The next creature spell you cast this turn costs up to 3 less to cast.)
3/2
Pain Converter 2B
Artifact
XB, Sacrifice Pain Converter: Target player loses X life.
Recycle - B, Pay 3 life. (B, Pay 3 life, Exile Pain Converter from your graveyard: The next artifact spell you cast this turn costs up to 3 less to cast.)
---
Next: Taunt (At least one creature attacks you each combat if able for each creature with taunt you control.)