I'm also on Humans Knightfall and virtually undefeated with it at my LGS. I switched to playing other things like GW Value Town and Saheeli combo to switch things up, but humans is a great deck and probably the most competitive version of Knightfall IMO. In terms of how it compares to the flavor of the month 5-color humans, I would say that it's not as disruptive and therefore weaker against combo (though you do have Thalia, and have access to Unified Will postboard), but is stronger against grindy value decks and maybe aggro decks (CoCo is a hell of a card). It also holds up better against Blood Moon, which is worth noting.
I finally got around to playing Bant Humans and, well, I won't be playing traditional Knightfall for the next while. The deck cuts a little bit of the midrange grind (like lifegain) for a lot more aggression. Essentially, instead of playing powerful answers (like Scavenging ooze for yards), the deck plays cards that buy time (like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Reflector mage). This time is used to make your opponets lifetotal low with your Champion of the parish before they do much of anything. This increase in aggression helps out stupendously. Tonight, I managed to out aggro elves (something I could pretty much never do with knightfall).
Let's break it down a little further. Modern is a format where you kinda need some way to goldfish. Humans can do that a little better than knightfall. The deck, by it's nature, is a bit more linear. Of course, this opens the deck up to a little more hate (namely Anger of the Gods), but, typically, you're still going to win the too deck war.
So, it seems that I'm going to be on it for the next while.
Agreed, and Anger of the Gods isn't necessarily that good against us because we can often get Champion of the Parish / Knight of the Reliquary to 4/4 before they get to cast it, and we usually run Burrenton Forge-Tender. I have to reiterate my belief that this is the best build of the deck at present. It's somewhat linear but not overly so. The deck still has serious play to it with cards like Unified Will. Case in point, I'm 9-0 with it at my LGS over three weeks.
Honestly, it's pretty new tech for me so I'm not too sure where I want it but I can think of a few matchups where I might bring it in: Valakut, Grapeshot, Ad Nauseam, maaaaybe Living End? Basically any deck that relies on a single card to end the game. If it ends up being good against Storm as well as Valakut, that's probably good enough to justify it.
In a Sideboard like this, what would you personally take out to replace with Gideon's Intervention?
Which version is this? I'm guessing it's the traditional version?
Regardless, probably Gaddock Teeg. I don't like Teeg in this deck because it stops us from casting our own Cocos. It also does nothing against Valakut decks and dies to every removal under the sun. There could be an argument for taking out a 1/1 split between Teeg and Eidolon.
What else does Gideon's Intervention hit? Just curious, I don't know if it is good enough to justify a spot in the sideboard if it only hits one match up.
Honestly, it's pretty new tech for me so I'm not too sure where I want it but I can think of a few matchups where I might bring it in: Valakut, Grapeshot, Ad Nauseam, maaaaybe Living End? Basically any deck that relies on a single card to end the game. If it ends up being good against Storm as well as Valakut, that's probably good enough to justify it.
The success of a ramp strategy depends on how broken the top end is. The most broken thing dinosaurs can do is go infinite with the Bellowing Aegisaur / Walking Ballista combo. It's not Annihilator 6, but sending with a couple of million power dudes on turn 5 or 6 puts the opponent to the test. The deck can bash pretty hard without the combo and there are some good cards to help assemble the combo, both of which help the deck.
It's not infinite, because you will eventually kill the Aegisaur. It doesn't put a counter on itself. But, you can start pinging it again every turn. I'm wondering if an Abzan deck with this combo and the snake whose name I can't recall at the moment could be a thing. It's an interesting thought.
Precisely. And without that card, they're left with a bunch of dumb 6/6s that look puny compared toKnight of the Reliquary. I believe that Intervention, along with Unified Will / Flashfreeze might be the way forward in terms of beating Valakut decks.
@blueduck70 I saw your list and it kept me thinking on the thalias. Don't you think that making the company cost 5 and PtE 2 is punishing? I played a league now with 2x 3 mana Thalia maindeck instead of the Aven Mindcensors but I couldn't take any conclusions... Need more testing.
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Thalia is punishing for the non-creature spells, but if you have an early company you can just not play thalia. And if you do play thalia early, it's usually so good against the opponent that they have to remove it, or be slowed down against a tempo deck. Playing thalia is a real cost, as why I'm playing 2, but I really feel like they're better than voice or the 3rd scooze in this meta. I really think theres merit in disruption that plays to the board. Often it lets you tap out where otherwise you'd be forced to hold up spell queller for interaction vs storm or valakut.
I like 3 mana thalia, but the competition for 3 drops is so high.
If Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is good in the current meta (and I do believe she is), why not play the humans version of Knightfall with 2-3 Thalia? I believe it has the most raw power of any version of the deck, and if Thalia is the disruption we need right now, humans can support her better than any other, given the synergy with other humans. Personally I've been on a tear with Humans Knightfall. I haven't lost a match of paper magic with it yet (though admittedly no competitive events, just friendly games and FNM). From my experience with all three versions, this one seems the most powerful right now and Thalia might be the card to push it over the top against Titanshift and Storm.
Also, I've mentioned this before but Unified Will is just absurd out of the sideboard when a deck plays 11-12 1 drops. Gideon's Intervention is also an excellent piece of sideboard tech that needs to be explored further. Unlike Runed Halo it actually stops damage dealt to permanents you control, so it can actually blank Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. Our humans and Knights can then get so huge they make Primeval Titan look puny, and lock the Titanshift deck out of the game.
So I've been trying the humans version of this deck. It's been great so far. Out of the very small sample of games I have with it, I have yet to lose a match (to be fair: these are all LGS and casual games with friends). A few thoughts:
This version fixes one of the biggest problems IMO with Knightfall: the complete disconnect of some of the pieces. In this version, all of the pieces contribute to a cohesive game-plan: flood the board with cheap, efficient and resilient humans that grow into giant threats, with a combo back-up plan.
4 Path to Exile, 4 Reflector Mage feels great - it allows us to have effectively 8 removal spells, plus the occasional tapping down a creature with Retreat to Coralhelm. Bant is not normally known for its removal suite, but this deck feels great as our removal suite lines up extremely well against the likes of Death's Shadow, Gurgmag Angler, Thought-Knot Seer and Goblin Electromancer. Plus, with the aggressive slant this version has, it's the best at leveraging its removal out of all of the Knightfall variants.
Perhaps most importantly, I've been impressed to no end with Unified Will in this build. It was always a powerful sideboard card, but we now have considerably more 1-drop creatures to support it thanks to Champion of the Parish. I've been playing 2 Unified Will, but they've felt so powerful in the sideboard (Drop a few creatures and it's literally Counterspell with less Blue investment) that I'm seriously considering going up to 4.
Knightfall is one of my favorite decks so far, love the colors and the combination of creatures, but I'm struggling against Eldrazi Tron. I think it is a bad match, they have fast and powerful creatures, All is Dust, Karn, etc, even 4 Reflector Mage can't deal with that.
How do you guys side in and out against Eldrazi Tron? Is Sigarda a good option?
Stony Silence isn't that thing and sometimes just break your Collected Company.
The matchup is fine overall, especially for the Vizier version (they run very little interaction so it's relatively easy to combo). Reflector Mage is a monster against their TKS and Reality Smashers. Sigarda would be good as it cuts out their best path to victory (All is Dust) IMO you want Unified Will in this matchup to stop things like All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.
@Dreadnaught33 Congrats on a good finish! Glad to see a list so close to mine doing well. I think you should reconsider Rhonas though, he's actually pretty decent in grindy games (survives board wipes, etc.) and can be hit off of Company, unlike Ballista. He's better in this deck than in Abzan company because he gets activated by Knight.
@RPD thanks for confirming my suspicions. That list was just strange. I'm confused at how he was able to take down a GP with it, but maybe it was the unconventional nature of it that surprised people, who knows. Or mayube it's just optimal against Titanshift and he took aim at that matchup? Either way I doubt that list will be a new standard going forward.
Hey thanks Deus, your point on botanical is especially well taken---what are you replacing vizier with main?
Is your board the same or any cards that you like that are different than mine?
Oh right. I've been running a single Selfless Spirit to save things with Chord of Calling and stop wraths. I don't have my list handy, but my sideboard is similar to yours except that I have the Ghost Quarter in there as well as Bojuka Bog for graveyard matchups (over one of the Oozes). I also run two Nissa, Steward of Elements(I'm always singing that card's praises - it's possibly the most powerful turn 2 play in our deck in grindy matchups, and also an excellent top-deck). I don't have Kataki at the moment because I think this deck is actually really good against Affinity, because they run little interaction. I seem to combo them out like 5 times out of 6. Also, Staticaster is a bomb in that matchup.
I know this thread is more for traditional knightfall, but I know some of you in here play the vizier version and those who don't, I still value everybody's insight and opinion in this thread. I'm going to a PPTQ with this: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/counters-knightfall-1/
I'm curious what you guys think. For the SB I'm tempted to play more hate for scapeshift or other big mana decks, or I'm also wondering if I'm too vulnerable to burn too. Any thoughts are extremely appreciated!!!!
Vizier Knightfall is still Knightfall and therefore is fair game on this thread. I'm playing it myself at the moment, though I go back and forth between versions. It's somewhat less grindy and resilient but has MUCH better combo and Dredge matchups IMO. Personally my list is pretty similar to yours but -1 Ghost Quarter +1 Botanical Sanctum (the deck is very colored-mana hungry, especially on 21 lands), -1 Vizier of Remedies (card is miserable on its own), -1 Walking Ballista (I want to increase CoCo hits and Rhonas is actually really solid with Knight of the Reliquary) and +1 Reflector Mage because that card is amazing in this meta - literally good against every top deck with the exceptions of Titanshift and UW Control.
Crazy idea here (almost akin to Bloom Titan in the sense that I'm suggesting an older card that may push this archetype further), but why not go arbitrarily large with a Wheel of Sun and Moon effect?
I'm imagining the basic sequence would look like the following:
0) Have Knight ready to T as well as Retreat, Wheel, and a Forest/Plains.
1) Sacrifice a Forest/Plains to Knight.
2) Replacement effect of Wheel puts it back in the library before you search; grab it or another Forest/Plains.
3) Retreat triggers; untap Knight.
4) Float a mana from the new Forest/Plains.
5) Repeat steps 1 to 4 for an arbitrarily large amount of mana.
Also would be additional technical plays like sacrificing extra Forest/Plains for Horizon Canopy, then using fetchlands and Retreat's Scry 1 mode to find an answer to whatever card or combination thereof that is preventing you from just swinging with a massive Knight. And, by not constantly having to grab shocks and fetches, the Burn matchup should be a lot better.
Of course, my experience with this particular archetype is admittedly limited, so ... I await your thoughts.
This is extremely win-more, given that you already win 99% of the time with Knight + Retreat. This needs an extra piece and the benefit is extremely situational at best; not to mention that it requires running even more enchantments that you have no way to tutor. Wheel can be a decent hate piece against graveyard decks but it's a bit too slow to beat a fast draw from Dredge, and DS will likely get able to get a Tasigur out.
I can't help but think that disdainful stroke would be better than Flashfreeze. Still good against CoCo/Chord decks, Tron decks, Etron, control strategies, Ad Naus, and still hits both scapeshift and Titan. Worse against burn and maybe skred red, but I think the pros outweighs the cons pretty heavily. I run 2x Disdainful stroke in Bant coco, and 2x-3x disdainful stroke in bant eldrazi and it's been great.
Stroke doesn't counter Anger of the Gods for example. It's not terrible but Unified Will is so much better because we generally end up having more creatures in the matchups where we bring it in.
We did it! Interesting and very unconventional list. Flashfreeze is cool but keep in mind it's likely a meta call: there were 6 Titanshift decks in the Top 32 at that GP. I also have to wonder if it really has much of an effect on the matchup, especially over Unified Will. Still this list really showcases some of the more unconventional options this deck has.
I'm also on Humans Knightfall and virtually undefeated with it at my LGS. I switched to playing other things like GW Value Town and Saheeli combo to switch things up, but humans is a great deck and probably the most competitive version of Knightfall IMO. In terms of how it compares to the flavor of the month 5-color humans, I would say that it's not as disruptive and therefore weaker against combo (though you do have Thalia, and have access to Unified Will postboard), but is stronger against grindy value decks and maybe aggro decks (CoCo is a hell of a card). It also holds up better against Blood Moon, which is worth noting.
Agreed, and Anger of the Gods isn't necessarily that good against us because we can often get Champion of the Parish / Knight of the Reliquary to 4/4 before they get to cast it, and we usually run Burrenton Forge-Tender. I have to reiterate my belief that this is the best build of the deck at present. It's somewhat linear but not overly so. The deck still has serious play to it with cards like Unified Will. Case in point, I'm 9-0 with it at my LGS over three weeks.
Which version is this? I'm guessing it's the traditional version?
Regardless, probably Gaddock Teeg. I don't like Teeg in this deck because it stops us from casting our own Cocos. It also does nothing against Valakut decks and dies to every removal under the sun. There could be an argument for taking out a 1/1 split between Teeg and Eidolon.
Honestly, it's pretty new tech for me so I'm not too sure where I want it but I can think of a few matchups where I might bring it in: Valakut, Grapeshot, Ad Nauseam, maaaaybe Living End? Basically any deck that relies on a single card to end the game. If it ends up being good against Storm as well as Valakut, that's probably good enough to justify it.
It's not infinite, because you will eventually kill the Aegisaur. It doesn't put a counter on itself. But, you can start pinging it again every turn. I'm wondering if an Abzan deck with this combo and the snake whose name I can't recall at the moment could be a thing. It's an interesting thought.
Precisely. And without that card, they're left with a bunch of dumb 6/6s that look puny compared toKnight of the Reliquary. I believe that Intervention, along with Unified Will / Flashfreeze might be the way forward in terms of beating Valakut decks.
Runed Halo doesn't actually stop much that we care about. Gideon's Intervention, while more expensive, can shut down a lot of cards that we care about, including Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle.
If Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is good in the current meta (and I do believe she is), why not play the humans version of Knightfall with 2-3 Thalia? I believe it has the most raw power of any version of the deck, and if Thalia is the disruption we need right now, humans can support her better than any other, given the synergy with other humans. Personally I've been on a tear with Humans Knightfall. I haven't lost a match of paper magic with it yet (though admittedly no competitive events, just friendly games and FNM). From my experience with all three versions, this one seems the most powerful right now and Thalia might be the card to push it over the top against Titanshift and Storm.
Also, I've mentioned this before but Unified Will is just absurd out of the sideboard when a deck plays 11-12 1 drops. Gideon's Intervention is also an excellent piece of sideboard tech that needs to be explored further. Unlike Runed Halo it actually stops damage dealt to permanents you control, so it can actually blank Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. Our humans and Knights can then get so huge they make Primeval Titan look puny, and lock the Titanshift deck out of the game.
List tags are malformed.
The matchup is fine overall, especially for the Vizier version (they run very little interaction so it's relatively easy to combo). Reflector Mage is a monster against their TKS and Reality Smashers. Sigarda would be good as it cuts out their best path to victory (All is Dust) IMO you want Unified Will in this matchup to stop things like All is Dust and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon.
@Dreadnaught33 Congrats on a good finish! Glad to see a list so close to mine doing well. I think you should reconsider Rhonas though, he's actually pretty decent in grindy games (survives board wipes, etc.) and can be hit off of Company, unlike Ballista. He's better in this deck than in Abzan company because he gets activated by Knight.
@RPD thanks for confirming my suspicions. That list was just strange. I'm confused at how he was able to take down a GP with it, but maybe it was the unconventional nature of it that surprised people, who knows. Or mayube it's just optimal against Titanshift and he took aim at that matchup? Either way I doubt that list will be a new standard going forward.
Oh right. I've been running a single Selfless Spirit to save things with Chord of Calling and stop wraths. I don't have my list handy, but my sideboard is similar to yours except that I have the Ghost Quarter in there as well as Bojuka Bog for graveyard matchups (over one of the Oozes). I also run two Nissa, Steward of Elements(I'm always singing that card's praises - it's possibly the most powerful turn 2 play in our deck in grindy matchups, and also an excellent top-deck). I don't have Kataki at the moment because I think this deck is actually really good against Affinity, because they run little interaction. I seem to combo them out like 5 times out of 6. Also, Staticaster is a bomb in that matchup.
Vizier Knightfall is still Knightfall and therefore is fair game on this thread. I'm playing it myself at the moment, though I go back and forth between versions. It's somewhat less grindy and resilient but has MUCH better combo and Dredge matchups IMO. Personally my list is pretty similar to yours but -1 Ghost Quarter +1 Botanical Sanctum (the deck is very colored-mana hungry, especially on 21 lands), -1 Vizier of Remedies (card is miserable on its own), -1 Walking Ballista (I want to increase CoCo hits and Rhonas is actually really solid with Knight of the Reliquary) and +1 Reflector Mage because that card is amazing in this meta - literally good against every top deck with the exceptions of Titanshift and UW Control.
This is extremely win-more, given that you already win 99% of the time with Knight + Retreat. This needs an extra piece and the benefit is extremely situational at best; not to mention that it requires running even more enchantments that you have no way to tutor. Wheel can be a decent hate piece against graveyard decks but it's a bit too slow to beat a fast draw from Dredge, and DS will likely get able to get a Tasigur out.
WRT G/W Value town: I personally think adding blue for 4x Unified Will in the side is the way to go, and I would also recommend 2x Nissa, Steward of Elements in the main. That card is just dirty with Courser of Kruphix.
Stroke doesn't counter Anger of the Gods for example. It's not terrible but Unified Will is so much better because we generally end up having more creatures in the matchups where we bring it in.