I play Jund and Hatebears against this deck and bring graveyard when you try to grind is really good against this deck. Moreover any relic, cage or spellbomb is 1 mana,even rip is just 2 mana for shut down 7+ cards but if you play a version with no voice and only 2 witness, well ok it's not so powerful.
The shortcut on the Knight vs finks discussion is you play against more aggro decks than tron deck so i pick the finks version.
That's kind of a simplistic view. Finks is certainly better vs some aggro decks (e.g. Burn, Goblins) but Knight grinds better and will be more powerful if the game goes long, be it by smashing for 5+ damage or by tutoring up utility lands. Speaking of which, land destruction isn't only good vs Tron: it has utility in many matchups including but not limited to: Affinity, Infect, UWx control, Burn (cut them off white or green), GBx, KCI (admittedly marginal), Eldrazi, etc. That's a point in Knight's favor. The knight version also isn't as weak to graveyard hate. Sure, Knight won't get bigger than a 2/2, but it's a 2/2 that can cast crop rotation every single turn. If your opponent is wasting a card on RIP or Leyline, I'll happily take that deal.
To chime in on this whole Knight vs. Finks discussion, I prefer Knight for three reasons:
1) Allows for a favorable matchup against Tron with 3-5 land destruction effects,
2) Tutors Kessig Wolf Run with a very small, almost free Red splash,which makes it effectively a combo piece so long as it's not summoning sick,
3) Can be found by Militia Bugler, and that card seems real good in early testing. Still a bit torn between that and Tireless Tracker, though.
On an unrelated note, I wanted to ask how people see our Humans matchup? I played against an opponent recently who swore up and down that the matchup is heavily skewed in our favor. In my experience it's been closer to 50/50, maybe a bit play/draw dependant. What have people's experiences been like?
That's basically the idea. I run 2 Voice of Resurgence main because I think that card is key in any grindy matchup, and 2 Eternal Witness (great to chain Cocos toward your combo or just value) Right now I'm trying a single Renegade Rallier as a way to rebuy combo pieces or voice, get back Ghost Quarter when that's relevant, or make clues for Tracker. I go down to 6 1-drop dorks (10 total accelerants is enough IMO), 3 Vizier of Remedies (because that card stinks), put the Scavenging Ooze in the sideboard, and cut 2 Tireless Tracker.
In terms of the lands, personally I'd cut 2 Field of Ruin for 1 Gavony Township and 1 Horizon Canopy, but I can see the appeal of mass land destruction. Stomping Ground + Kessig Wolf Run is a consideration, but it does kind of make the deck run less smoothly. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is also a spicy fun-of option. It can be a decent way to go over the top in grindy matchups. It may ultimately be too cute, though.
Personally, I'm running 2 Felidar Guardians at the moment to strike a balance between having the combo pieces and diluting my deck with ansub-par creature. My reasoning is that I want to have a back-up in case my opponent has a removal spell for the first, but not the second.
Dauntless bodyguard is definitely something that caught my eye as well. I honestly wonder if a benevolent-bodyguard-varient wouldn't be too strong in modern, because this guys drawback makes it extremely awkward.
Remember, a good opponent will kill druid while it's summoning sick if possible. So... The only scenario I can come up with where this card is good is when you play a druid and pass with chord to protect. Druid only costs 2 mana, so this is only relevant if you have exactly 4 chord Mana left, and isn't relevant against path, dismember, brutality, or reflector mage.
Will there be scenarios where you simultaneously:
a) have to protect a druid with exactly 4 convoke?
b) are facing removal that indestructible works against?
c) still have the cards to go off after?
Yes. But will that happen enough times to justify playing a Savannah Lion? I think probably not. Its possible that my logic's flawed, let me know what you find if you test it.
You're not wrong. I think it's worth a try just because Bolt and Push are so prevalent. It also protects against various other spells such as Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay, Anger of the Gods, Supreme Verdict, etc. It can also be used for combat in odd cases. The biggest thing is the surprise factor. It's not hard to hold up 4 mana when counting untapped creatures including druid itself. Yes, there are spells it doesn't protect against, but I think it's still worth a shot on balance. The card isn't awful on its own; Savannah Lion beats aren't the worst, especially with Exalted.
Shalai, Voice of Plenty
3W
Legendary Creature - Angel
Flying
You, planeswalkers you control, and other creatures you control have hexproof.
4GG: Put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control.
3/4
--
Mainly for the Devoted Druid builds, but this card is sweet. It's a combo piece. It protects our other combo pieces. It's hate for a bunch of decks, including Burn and Storm, and very good against Liliana (both Lilianas, even). It's a 3/4 beater in the air. It blocks Mantis Rider. At 4 casting cost and 4 toughness, it's annoying to deal with removal. It's a grindy win-con with the built-in Gavony Township effect.
Did I mention it's a combo piece??
Yes, it's a miss from Collected Company, but the list plays Walking Ballista, and sometimes more than one. This is also excellent with Chord of Calling to blank any removal, discard or other spell that targets... anything on your side of the battlefield. I think the druid builds play minimum one of these in the main.
But while Shalay got a lot of attention yesterday, I think there's another potentially very good card that flew under the radar, also for the Druid build:
Dauntless Bodyguard
W
Creature - Human Knight
As Dauntless Bodyguard enters the battlefield, choose another creature you control.
Sacrifice Dauntless Bodyguard: The chosen creature gains indestructible until end of turn.
2/1
--
A 2/1 for W isn't awful on rate, but where this shines is as a super cheap protection spell with Chord of Calling. Anyone who plays Burrenton Forge-Tender knows how good it feels to have Chord for Forge-Tender ready to save your devoted druid. This is a more maindeckable version of that. Yes, Selfless Spirit does it better, but Chord for 2 is significantly harder to do than Chord for 1.
I'm wondering if we could have a curve like this to protect Druid:
Chord for 1 = Dauntless Bodyguard (save it from non-white removal)
Chord for 2 = Selfless Spirit (save your whole board from non-white removal)
Chord for 3 = Renegade Rallier (recur it after any removal as long as you have a graveyard)
Chord for 4 = Shalai, Voice of Plenty (save it from any targeted removal so long as your opponent can't respond with a removal spell that hits Shalai)
All of these could be 1-ofs, and all are very good cards in their own right.
Is it fair to say that we're one of the biggest beneficiaries of this Unban? It seems both Jace and Bloodbraid Elf are viable in our deck, albeit in different versions. I think Jace should drop in price a bit after M25, so I'm looking forward to getting a couple of copies.
Sweet list, but it looks dead in the water against Affinity with 0 Kataki 0 Stony... No ways to remove Artifacts or enchantments also can't be right, even with a way to play around Bridge. Then again, Kelvin may be just making a conscious choice to improve some matchups at the expense of others.
In my (so far limited) testing, BBE is a great addition to this deck. In the version I play, the worst hits are Noble Hierarch and Lotus Cobra, and those are not even that bad. The times I've hit Rallier with Revolt, Saheeli and Evolution have felt insanely powerful. If you're playing a value-oriented build like mine, elf is a great card that probably elevates this deck's power level. I'm currently running only 3 BBE to have room for more bullets, and only a single Guardian.
From early testing, Jace is just disgusting in this deck. In a good way.
Jace + Courser = free cards and life. Add Tireless Tracker and/or Knight to the mix to make the value even more absurd.
Jace + birds/hierarchs = Brainstorm to sharply increase card quality
Jace + Coco = set up double Knight Coco.
I think we have to go 8 manadorks if we hope to support 6-7 4-drop spells. The suite of 3-drops I'm running currently is 4 Knights, 4 Quellers, 2 Coursers, 2 Trackers, 1 Clique. Clique has been REALLY good in my testing, doing things like blanking a Breach deck's combo, removing Supreme Verdict from UW, etc. I'm seriously considering going up to 2 Cliques because in a meta where we're going to be fighting over Jace on turn 4, it's really nice to have Spell Queller up as well as Clique. Also some have suggested that Jace will cause an uptick in combo decks, and Clique is one of the better ways to counter that.
So I hate to say it but we may need to pony up the cash for this one...
I think we're going to need to adapt, and the best way to do that may be just playing 2-3 Jace ourselves. Turn 3 Jace from us will make it pretty rough for any midrange/combo deck. If that's the case, I think we go straight Bant, drop red entirely, add a basic Island (and enough basics to get Knight to 20/20 naturally). I'd probably also play 1-2 Vendillion Clique since we'd need double blue anyway and Clique is just a great card.
Mind sharing your list?
Currently on traditional Knightfall, but would love to try out humans.
Here's my list. It changes slightly from week to week (especially the sideboard). Tamiyo, Field Researcher is a bit of a fun-of, but it has been very effective in any grindy matchup or midrange creature mirror.
That's kind of a simplistic view. Finks is certainly better vs some aggro decks (e.g. Burn, Goblins) but Knight grinds better and will be more powerful if the game goes long, be it by smashing for 5+ damage or by tutoring up utility lands. Speaking of which, land destruction isn't only good vs Tron: it has utility in many matchups including but not limited to: Affinity, Infect, UWx control, Burn (cut them off white or green), GBx, KCI (admittedly marginal), Eldrazi, etc. That's a point in Knight's favor. The knight version also isn't as weak to graveyard hate. Sure, Knight won't get bigger than a 2/2, but it's a 2/2 that can cast crop rotation every single turn. If your opponent is wasting a card on RIP or Leyline, I'll happily take that deal.
1) Allows for a favorable matchup against Tron with 3-5 land destruction effects,
2) Tutors Kessig Wolf Run with a very small, almost free Red splash,which makes it effectively a combo piece so long as it's not summoning sick,
3) Can be found by Militia Bugler, and that card seems real good in early testing. Still a bit torn between that and Tireless Tracker, though.
On an unrelated note, I wanted to ask how people see our Humans matchup? I played against an opponent recently who swore up and down that the matchup is heavily skewed in our favor. In my experience it's been closer to 50/50, maybe a bit play/draw dependant. What have people's experiences been like?
That's basically the idea. I run 2 Voice of Resurgence main because I think that card is key in any grindy matchup, and 2 Eternal Witness (great to chain Cocos toward your combo or just value) Right now I'm trying a single Renegade Rallier as a way to rebuy combo pieces or voice, get back Ghost Quarter when that's relevant, or make clues for Tracker. I go down to 6 1-drop dorks (10 total accelerants is enough IMO), 3 Vizier of Remedies (because that card stinks), put the Scavenging Ooze in the sideboard, and cut 2 Tireless Tracker.
In terms of the lands, personally I'd cut 2 Field of Ruin for 1 Gavony Township and 1 Horizon Canopy, but I can see the appeal of mass land destruction. Stomping Ground + Kessig Wolf Run is a consideration, but it does kind of make the deck run less smoothly. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is also a spicy fun-of option. It can be a decent way to go over the top in grindy matchups. It may ultimately be too cute, though.
No Path to Exile or Bojuka Bog in the sideboard seems nuts to me, though.
You're not wrong. I think it's worth a try just because Bolt and Push are so prevalent. It also protects against various other spells such as Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay, Anger of the Gods, Supreme Verdict, etc. It can also be used for combat in odd cases. The biggest thing is the surprise factor. It's not hard to hold up 4 mana when counting untapped creatures including druid itself. Yes, there are spells it doesn't protect against, but I think it's still worth a shot on balance. The card isn't awful on its own; Savannah Lion beats aren't the worst, especially with Exalted.
Shalai, Voice of Plenty
3W
Legendary Creature - Angel
Flying
You, planeswalkers you control, and other creatures you control have hexproof.
4GG: Put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control.
3/4
--
Mainly for the Devoted Druid builds, but this card is sweet. It's a combo piece. It protects our other combo pieces. It's hate for a bunch of decks, including Burn and Storm, and very good against Liliana (both Lilianas, even). It's a 3/4 beater in the air. It blocks Mantis Rider. At 4 casting cost and 4 toughness, it's annoying to deal with removal. It's a grindy win-con with the built-in Gavony Township effect.
Did I mention it's a combo piece??
Yes, it's a miss from Collected Company, but the list plays Walking Ballista, and sometimes more than one. This is also excellent with Chord of Calling to blank any removal, discard or other spell that targets... anything on your side of the battlefield. I think the druid builds play minimum one of these in the main.
But while Shalay got a lot of attention yesterday, I think there's another potentially very good card that flew under the radar, also for the Druid build:
Dauntless Bodyguard
W
Creature - Human Knight
As Dauntless Bodyguard enters the battlefield, choose another creature you control.
Sacrifice Dauntless Bodyguard: The chosen creature gains indestructible until end of turn.
2/1
--
A 2/1 for W isn't awful on rate, but where this shines is as a super cheap protection spell with Chord of Calling. Anyone who plays Burrenton Forge-Tender knows how good it feels to have Chord for Forge-Tender ready to save your devoted druid. This is a more maindeckable version of that. Yes, Selfless Spirit does it better, but Chord for 2 is significantly harder to do than Chord for 1.
I'm wondering if we could have a curve like this to protect Druid:
Chord for 1 = Dauntless Bodyguard (save it from non-white removal)
Chord for 2 = Selfless Spirit (save your whole board from non-white removal)
Chord for 3 = Renegade Rallier (recur it after any removal as long as you have a graveyard)
Chord for 4 = Shalai, Voice of Plenty (save it from any targeted removal so long as your opponent can't respond with a removal spell that hits Shalai)
All of these could be 1-ofs, and all are very good cards in their own right.
Jace + Courser = free cards and life. Add Tireless Tracker and/or Knight to the mix to make the value even more absurd.
Jace + birds/hierarchs = Brainstorm to sharply increase card quality
Jace + Coco = set up double Knight Coco.
I think we have to go 8 manadorks if we hope to support 6-7 4-drop spells. The suite of 3-drops I'm running currently is 4 Knights, 4 Quellers, 2 Coursers, 2 Trackers, 1 Clique. Clique has been REALLY good in my testing, doing things like blanking a Breach deck's combo, removing Supreme Verdict from UW, etc. I'm seriously considering going up to 2 Cliques because in a meta where we're going to be fighting over Jace on turn 4, it's really nice to have Spell Queller up as well as Clique. Also some have suggested that Jace will cause an uptick in combo decks, and Clique is one of the better ways to counter that.
So I hate to say it but we may need to pony up the cash for this one...
1 Eternal Witness seems wrong. You want at least 3 in Vizier lists. Also not a fan of Geist in the main.
Here's my list. It changes slightly from week to week (especially the sideboard). Tamiyo, Field Researcher is a bit of a fun-of, but it has been very effective in any grindy matchup or midrange creature mirror.
// 29 Creature
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Reflector Mage
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Eternal Witness
// 2 Enchantment
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
// 7 Instant
4 Collected Company
3 Path to Exile
// 1 Planeswalker
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stomping Ground
// 10 Creature
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Vithian Renegades
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Unified Will
// 1 Land
1 Bojuka Bog