...to this day, the mana base is the hardest part of the game for young deck builders to master and get right.
To each their own.
Personally I think that's something worth learning, and is one of my favourite aspects of deck building. Weighing colour requirements vs ramp and utility; power vs resilience (basics); setting the mana curve; options for mana-sink, etc.
I wouldn't want to give that up.
I also prefer formats where LD and resource denial is a valid strategy and legitimate deck building concern. So I personally dn't want a system like Versus where players always have access to land cards.
This... couldn't have been said any better.
Resource management is almost always in every good game out there. From the clock in Super Mario bros. to money in Monopoly. It is exactly what Magic is about and why it has such a draw for so many people. Removing this fundamental aspect negates a huge slice of the game to the point it might as well be a different game entirely.
Yes... I have tried it. A variant called Landless Magic from the late 90s based on a letter sent to The Duelist. It was fun for a while but it distinctly felt different. All the elements were there but it just wasn't the same game. Enough that I really never played Landless since and I don't really have a desire to try another version of "land fixed" Magic.
There are good ways to handle resource management and bad ways to do it, though. The way magic handles resources is one of the games weaker aspects and this has been known for a long time. It's why later games like Force of will have a land deck.
That is true but remember that FoW was designed specifically with that in mind. Magic was not.
I admit the flexibility that makes Magic so good allows you have two stacks like that. But I would never want it to become part of the official rules in existing formats. The power shifts that occured when Interrupts or mana burn was removed was relatively small. A lot of the card tricks powers when the stack was changed was also relatively small. Removing the variance of lands represents a larger change in the game. Negating the value of any land fetch. Shift the power level of card draw cards. Land destruction would be skewed. Lands.dec would become extremely interesting. I suspect it would even give WotC the excuse to drive cmc costs even higher.
Land screw and resource management is a big part of Magic and players just need to man up and learn to deal with it.
If players want to create a new format with its own rules and ban list like Pauper, EDH or whatever, knock yourself out. More power to you. I'll even give it a shot and maybe play a few games with those rules. But if you want to make a significant change to the mainstream game like double libraries, then no thanks. Go play My Little Pony or something.
Note: I don't have anything against My Little Pony. It is, however, a different game that uses a sliding scale for resources. No land screw.
The deck does fill the "20 frogs" tribal requirement, so the rest could just be goodstuff. I don't like the Rancors and the Ovinizes. I like Control Magic and Wild Growth.
Thank you for the correction, but I think you misunderstand my use of Tokens in this way. It isn't to minimize Gorger's ability, it's to control his hand. There might be times it would be prudent not to bounce a creature but you don't want to lose the "boss" creature. And as the OP stated, he was experiencing problems with his hand size.
The OP dlinitially did not mention this is for Emperor. I thought this was straight MP, which sometimes requires laying down a cheap defensive line in order to get your engine running. Same reason I suggested mana rocks, dorks and hand managers.
...to this day, the mana base is the hardest part of the game for young deck builders to master and get right.
To each their own.
Personally I think that's something worth learning, and is one of my favourite aspects of deck building. Weighing colour requirements vs ramp and utility; power vs resilience (basics); setting the mana curve; options for mana-sink, etc.
I wouldn't want to give that up.
I also prefer formats where LD and resource denial is a valid strategy and legitimate deck building concern. So I personally dn't want a system like Versus where players always have access to land cards.
This... couldn't have been said any better.
Resource management is almost always in every good game out there. From the clock in Super Mario bros. to money in Monopoly. It is exactly what Magic is about and why it has such a draw for so many people. Removing this fundamental aspect negates a huge slice of the game to the point it might as well be a different game entirely.
Yes... I have tried it. A variant called Landless Magic from the late 90s based on a letter sent to The Duelist. It was fun for a while but it distinctly felt different. All the elements were there but it just wasn't the same game. Enough that I really never played Landless since and I don't really have a desire to try another version of "land fixed" Magic.
I would imagine that said spoilers are given to the website just before they're posting (just guessing).
When I worked for a game site, staff had to sign an NDA for the spoilers. I never did and it was one of the reasons I was "releleased". One of the stipulations was usually something like "we're going to tell you this but you can't reveal it until such and such date." NDA sucked for the community. Especially when a well loved company strings their fans along on lies and you're stuck just noding your head and pretending you don't know anything. It just makes you hate the company even more.
It could just be a simple black listing. Give a site a spoiler with a stipulation not to share until such date. If the site releases said information before such date then don't give them any more spoilers in the future. Most sites will toe the line to avoid not having information first. From what I hear, WotC seems to use this strategy more.
Missing the point, Just becuase you can not think of one does not mean one does not exsist (or that one will not ever exsist) even if that means I put say a 2-2 split, with the world of net decks people want the BEST win chance will go that way.
I think you are missing the point.
The point is that such lands would increase the accessibility of Legacy. This is true.
Even if decks move to a 2-2 split (more commonly a 2-1 or 1-1 split), this reduces demand for ABUR duals. And even if some decks run 5+ duals, there will still be a ton of decks that won't. As long as Wasteland (and Moon), Brainstorm, and DRS are format staples, people want a high fetch-land count. There is just not room for 5 of any dual - especially in 3+ colour decks.
Or more to the point...
So what if there's an Underground Sea 2 and people run them as cards 5-8 in Legacy? Do people honestly think Legacy players can't play around that?
I used to think restricting or banning cards in that manner was interesting but the more I think about it (as I read some of the custom card creations) the more I realize it's a terrible idea. Let's take a reserved card, give it a new name, and add a restriction that it can't be played in a deck if the original reserved card is in the deck. Yeah.... why not just print the reserved card? The restriction actually means that a player can't use the card to do slot 2-4 if all they have is one original. It's just some weird pseudo-ban that only marginally works as intended.
Cards with conditions like that is a dangerous rabbit hole we don't need to go down. It just opens up the possibility for more cards with negative conditional deck construction rules. And if the whole idea goes South, which it will, it's just going to result in straight bans or some terrible confusing rules to try and fix it.
I'm trying really hard not to bash that idea but it's not easy. I really don't believe that it's that big of a deal to have 8 duals when it comes to legacy.
They basically would have a note saying that "This card counts as a Bayou" on it, which then prevents the player from playing more than 4 of a kind. The irony is that would basically be reprinting the reserved list card anyway and the whole promo foil work around they had tried before with some other cards didn't go down so well.
Yeah.... that's the other wording I've seen. Avoids the slotting problem. Yep... might as well print Bayou or whatever.
Could always print a true Tri-land without annoying drawbacks.
Missing the point, Just becuase you can not think of one does not mean one does not exsist (or that one will not ever exsist) even if that means I put say a 2-2 split, with the world of net decks people want the BEST win chance will go that way.
I think you are missing the point.
The point is that such lands would increase the accessibility of Legacy. This is true.
Even if decks move to a 2-2 split (more commonly a 2-1 or 1-1 split), this reduces demand for ABUR duals. And even if some decks run 5+ duals, there will still be a ton of decks that won't. As long as Wasteland (and Moon), Brainstorm, and DRS are format staples, people want a high fetch-land count. There is just not room for 5 of any dual - especially in 3+ colour decks.
Or more to the point...
So what if there's an Underground Sea 2 and people run them as cards 5-8 in Legacy? Do people honestly think Legacy players can't play around that?
I used to think restricting or banning cards in that manner was interesting but the more I think about it (as I read some of the custom card creations) the more I realize it's a terrible idea. Let's take a reserved card, give it a new name, and add a restriction that it can't be played in a deck if the original reserved card is in the deck. Yeah.... why not just print the reserved card? The restriction actually means that a player can't use the card to do slot 2-4 if all they have is one original. It's just some weird pseudo-ban that only marginally works as intended.
Cards with conditions like that is a dangerous rabbit hole we don't need to go down. It just opens up the possibility for more cards with negative conditional deck construction rules. And if the whole idea goes South, which it will, it's just going to result in straight bans or some terrible confusing rules to try and fix it.
I'm trying really hard not to bash that idea but it's not easy. I really don't believe that it's that big of a deal to have 8 duals when it comes to legacy.
Magic has this weird relationship with the concept of Beginner, Advance and Expert. Outside of Portal 1, 2 & 3 it's just a mess. Honestly, I don't think WotC really understands so there's no point in figuring out yourself.
You're really better off at looking at the old sets to see what mechanic were there and disallow cards that add to that in later sets, such as DFC. You and your group should put your heads together and take a vote on any new mechanics and go from there.
You're not the only one, Magic '96 does something similar and a lot of kitchen players reimplement mana burn.
Not in the way you asked the question. Or rather, not with that scenario.
If you cast Vizier after the creature dies, you can't target the creature in the graveyard. It's gone.
You can cast Vizier and target a creature still alive after damage resolution, but there's not a lot of reasons to do that and not really what you want probably.
But... Vizier has Flash, allowing you to cast Vizier after the declare Attackers or Blockers phase but before the damage resolution phase. The targeted creature will be exiled and bounce back at the next end step. Keep in mind that a declared attacking or blocking creature removed from combat before damage resolution will not deal or receive any damage.
Simic is not necessarily one of my strong styles. So....
You mentioned controlling your hand size an issue which is why I suggested tokens. Tokens are fed to the Gorger as payment but if you want to bounce a creature and recast for ETB, nothing is stopping you. Your token becomes a trump blocker or fodder for something else.
Well.... if Gorger is the focus of your deck then you need to feed him proper. I suggest Tokens. Akroan Horse would be the first card I looked at. It's a wall but you get your tokens for free each turn to feed the Gorger.
You look like you like counters so Animation Module should be an option. The tokens are a bit crunchy but certainly edible. Awakening Zone tokens pulls double duty for colorless mana if the frog isn't out yet. Even better, enchantments are harder to destroy.
I can probably remember more cards later....
Oops... I just realized you have mana problems. That strengthens Awakenings vote....
Since this is Casual, try the old standbys Sol Ring, Birds of paradise and Llanowar Elves are pretty solid mana accelerators just to name a few. Noble Hierarch falls in line with your deck strategy.... oh... almost missed, Orochi Leafcaller is a snakish Mana Dork.
No. "A source" means any source just like "a creature" means any creature (like on a card like Anthem of Rakdos). Insult will see all sources that are dealing damage and will double it
Juwt to clarify....
Not all sources that are dealing damage. Only sources you control that are dealng damage and will double it.
It's being nit picky I guess, but Insult // Injury has a whole other element (but irrelevant to PainsWalkers question) so I imagine it might be a good idea to get these small details right.
The company is kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place with keeping cards in print. They have to set up print runs at printing facilities for sets they have to build, balance, and playtest, then have to set up a length of time they want the print facilities to keep printing that product. This is with setting up a point in time that the product is the featured hype train in a busy year round product releases fest.
Also, even when they don't print something to be standard legal the designers at wizards are still trying to stick with newer standards, which can make getting older reprints out a challenge as people have to really be pining over them. The only set that they made an exception to this with was eternal masters and the second coming of counterspell and Force of Will.
Isn't that one of the reasons for Masterpieces (gag..) and Eternal Masters? To milk the rabid hunger of people who want these older cards?
I really wish they would start printing new non-standard sets. Not sets with themes like Conspiracy or draft sets like EM but literally a bunch of cards in a box and see where they land....like ABU. No top down design. Not a boat load of intense testing. I don't even care of the art is coherent or if the cards have flavor text. Just make the dang cards and let me play 'em.
Maro has said that a sixth color is something that might happen eventually, but certainly not anytime soon. He also says that if they were to do a sixth color, it would be something that they only do for a single set or block (like purple was planned to be in Planar Chaos, or how colorless was in OGW) and not something permanent that should be expected in every set. But even for just one set, a sixth color is very difficult to implement and there are a lot of issues to resolve, so designers probably aren't very eager to attempt it, especially since the demand is relatively low compared to other things.
On top of that, I strongly believe that, outside of an unset, an introduction of a full fledged 6th color would be the equivalent of the game jumping the shark. They got away with it with colorless because Magic was already doing it. They just finally completed it the circle. I didn't like them retroactively changing cards like Sol Ring and the resulting weirdness with colored artifacts and the nonsense with Eldrazi. But cest la vie, we're over that hurdle now.
But a sixth color in main stream Magic would be the literal equivalent of WotC designers saying they've run out of ideas. So when Maro says they'll do a sixth color (other than unset) eventually is, IMHO, just him talking out of both sides of his mouth.
I would love to see that in UN3 though, complete with a new ridiculous basic land and everything.
Same here. I think WotC is completely missing the boat on that one. There is no other format in existence that would allow for a 6th color without fear of warping the game. So why not? You could go completely bonkers with an unset version of Reality Twist where W produces pink and U has to be paid in socks.
I still stand by original comment about 6 colors in non-un-set Magic though.
That is true but remember that FoW was designed specifically with that in mind. Magic was not.
I admit the flexibility that makes Magic so good allows you have two stacks like that. But I would never want it to become part of the official rules in existing formats. The power shifts that occured when Interrupts or mana burn was removed was relatively small. A lot of the card tricks powers when the stack was changed was also relatively small. Removing the variance of lands represents a larger change in the game. Negating the value of any land fetch. Shift the power level of card draw cards. Land destruction would be skewed. Lands.dec would become extremely interesting. I suspect it would even give WotC the excuse to drive cmc costs even higher.
Land screw and resource management is a big part of Magic and players just need to man up and learn to deal with it.
If players want to create a new format with its own rules and ban list like Pauper, EDH or whatever, knock yourself out. More power to you. I'll even give it a shot and maybe play a few games with those rules. But if you want to make a significant change to the mainstream game like double libraries, then no thanks. Go play My Little Pony or something.
Note: I don't have anything against My Little Pony. It is, however, a different game that uses a sliding scale for resources. No land screw.
Thank you for the correction, but I think you misunderstand my use of Tokens in this way. It isn't to minimize Gorger's ability, it's to control his hand. There might be times it would be prudent not to bounce a creature but you don't want to lose the "boss" creature. And as the OP stated, he was experiencing problems with his hand size.
The OP dlinitially did not mention this is for Emperor. I thought this was straight MP, which sometimes requires laying down a cheap defensive line in order to get your engine running. Same reason I suggested mana rocks, dorks and hand managers.
I can only guess at what works for Emperor.
This... couldn't have been said any better.
Resource management is almost always in every good game out there. From the clock in Super Mario bros. to money in Monopoly. It is exactly what Magic is about and why it has such a draw for so many people. Removing this fundamental aspect negates a huge slice of the game to the point it might as well be a different game entirely.
Yes... I have tried it. A variant called Landless Magic from the late 90s based on a letter sent to The Duelist. It was fun for a while but it distinctly felt different. All the elements were there but it just wasn't the same game. Enough that I really never played Landless since and I don't really have a desire to try another version of "land fixed" Magic.
I never played that format (EDH is the preferred format locally) so I really don't have much deck construction advice to give.
When I worked for a game site, staff had to sign an NDA for the spoilers. I never did and it was one of the reasons I was "releleased". One of the stipulations was usually something like "we're going to tell you this but you can't reveal it until such and such date." NDA sucked for the community. Especially when a well loved company strings their fans along on lies and you're stuck just noding your head and pretending you don't know anything. It just makes you hate the company even more.
It could just be a simple black listing. Give a site a spoiler with a stipulation not to share until such date. If the site releases said information before such date then don't give them any more spoilers in the future. Most sites will toe the line to avoid not having information first. From what I hear, WotC seems to use this strategy more.
Yeah.... that's the other wording I've seen. Avoids the slotting problem. Yep... might as well print Bayou or whatever.
Could always print a true Tri-land without annoying drawbacks.
Or more to the point...
So what if there's an Underground Sea 2 and people run them as cards 5-8 in Legacy? Do people honestly think Legacy players can't play around that?
I used to think restricting or banning cards in that manner was interesting but the more I think about it (as I read some of the custom card creations) the more I realize it's a terrible idea. Let's take a reserved card, give it a new name, and add a restriction that it can't be played in a deck if the original reserved card is in the deck. Yeah.... why not just print the reserved card? The restriction actually means that a player can't use the card to do slot 2-4 if all they have is one original. It's just some weird pseudo-ban that only marginally works as intended.
Cards with conditions like that is a dangerous rabbit hole we don't need to go down. It just opens up the possibility for more cards with negative conditional deck construction rules. And if the whole idea goes South, which it will, it's just going to result in straight bans or some terrible confusing rules to try and fix it.
I'm trying really hard not to bash that idea but it's not easy. I really don't believe that it's that big of a deal to have 8 duals when it comes to legacy.
You're really better off at looking at the old sets to see what mechanic were there and disallow cards that add to that in later sets, such as DFC. You and your group should put your heads together and take a vote on any new mechanics and go from there.
You're not the only one, Magic '96 does something similar and a lot of kitchen players reimplement mana burn.
If you cast Vizier after the creature dies, you can't target the creature in the graveyard. It's gone.
You can cast Vizier and target a creature still alive after damage resolution, but there's not a lot of reasons to do that and not really what you want probably.
But... Vizier has Flash, allowing you to cast Vizier after the declare Attackers or Blockers phase but before the damage resolution phase. The targeted creature will be exiled and bounce back at the next end step. Keep in mind that a declared attacking or blocking creature removed from combat before damage resolution will not deal or receive any damage.
You mentioned controlling your hand size an issue which is why I suggested tokens. Tokens are fed to the Gorger as payment but if you want to bounce a creature and recast for ETB, nothing is stopping you. Your token becomes a trump blocker or fodder for something else.
If you want to control your hand size. Reliquary Tower is a particular favorite of mine replacing an old favorite Library of Leng. Spellbook is a cute one too. Venser's Journal would be fun with your Gorger. Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, once you get the Emblem is permanent. Very mana hungry though.
Akroan Horse would be the first card I looked at. It's a wall but you get your tokens for free each turn to feed the Gorger.
You look like you like counters so Animation Module should be an option. The tokens are a bit crunchy but certainly edible.
Awakening Zone tokens pulls double duty for colorless mana if the frog isn't out yet. Even better, enchantments are harder to destroy.
I can probably remember more cards later....
Oops... I just realized you have mana problems. That strengthens Awakenings vote....
Since this is Casual, try the old standbys Sol Ring, Birds of paradise and Llanowar Elves are pretty solid mana accelerators just to name a few. Noble Hierarch falls in line with your deck strategy.... oh... almost missed, Orochi Leafcaller is a snakish Mana Dork.
Juwt to clarify....
Not all sources that are dealing damage. Only sources you control that are dealng damage and will double it.
It's being nit picky I guess, but Insult // Injury has a whole other element (but irrelevant to PainsWalkers question) so I imagine it might be a good idea to get these small details right.
Isn't that one of the reasons for Masterpieces (gag..) and Eternal Masters? To milk the rabid hunger of people who want these older cards?
I really wish they would start printing new non-standard sets. Not sets with themes like Conspiracy or draft sets like EM but literally a bunch of cards in a box and see where they land....like ABU. No top down design. Not a boat load of intense testing. I don't even care of the art is coherent or if the cards have flavor text. Just make the dang cards and let me play 'em.
Yeah... I remember that article. Completely forgot about it. All of that chatter to simply end up at, "we decided not to do it."
On top of that, I strongly believe that, outside of an unset, an introduction of a full fledged 6th color would be the equivalent of the game jumping the shark. They got away with it with colorless because Magic was already doing it. They just finally completed it the circle. I didn't like them retroactively changing cards like Sol Ring and the resulting weirdness with colored artifacts and the nonsense with Eldrazi. But cest la vie, we're over that hurdle now.
But a sixth color in main stream Magic would be the literal equivalent of WotC designers saying they've run out of ideas. So when Maro says they'll do a sixth color (other than unset) eventually is, IMHO, just him talking out of both sides of his mouth.
Same here. I think WotC is completely missing the boat on that one. There is no other format in existence that would allow for a 6th color without fear of warping the game. So why not? You could go completely bonkers with an unset version of Reality Twist where W produces pink and U has to be paid in socks.
I still stand by original comment about 6 colors in non-un-set Magic though.