MTG Salvation

Quote from DaveJacinto »

Quote from TheAnnihilator0798 »

Quote from EoTGifts »

It seems that the 3/2 split is pretty much consensus, so I'll just try it myself and see whether it improves things. Maybe the third JTMS then takes the slot of the fourth Terminus, with a couple of cantrips and such we should be able to find them. How many 4 mana wraths do you play? I currently opted für a 1-of Verdict, 4 mana still seems a little clunky, especially against hasty threats (and they are pretty bad against Phoenix).

I don't recommend cutting any Terminus. You're putting them in your deck to cast them consistently, so go all in and play 4. You'll get used to it. The slots I could see cutting from the list you posted before are the 2nd Snare, the Mission Briefing, and the 2nd Negate.

I do run 1 Verdict because it seems pretty standard, but I'm starting to wonder if it's even necessary -- many of the deck we want boardwipes against laugh at Verdict (Dredge, Hollow One, Bridgevine, Bogles with totem armor, etc). Against everyone else, 4 mana wraths actually seem pretty bad. Does anyone else feel similarly? The only decks I can think of that I actually want Verdict against are Humans and Affinity, and Affinity loses pretty hard to Terminus anyways.

Personally, I was running a split of Wrath/Verdict main for a long time to compensate for the fact that I wasn't totally comfortable playing Terminus. Now that I've gotten a decent grasp on how to play with Terminus in the list, I don't feel like I even need the 1 Verdict I currently run.

My account was deleted and so all my posts... I'm unsure if I replied to this or not...

If for some reason you're playing less than 3 JtMS I'd recommend playing 3/2 terminus/4cmc wipes split. From my experience, I had too many clunky hands with terminus and little to no way to remove them from my hand. When I decided to play the 3rd Jace I brought the 4th Terminus in and cut one of my 4cmc wipes. I would never cut a Jace for a Terminus, they need each other, in reality you're only playing Terminus because there's Jace and you only play Jace because you need Terminus.

Now I'm running 4 Terminus and 1 Settle the Wreckage because on my local meta there's a lot of Phoenix and Dredge decks which are better answered with Settle. Since there's a slight resurgence of GDS, I have a Supreme on my sideboard just in case.

I'm not sure it's worth the inconsistency to run 2 Jace 3 Terminus instead of just conceding game 1's vs Dredge and Pheonix and coming in with sideboard tech to swoop games 2 and 3. I mean dedicated hate, like Settles, 4/5 gy hate pieces (Surgical/RIP), 2 Purges or 1 Purge/1 DSphere, etc. That way, you're gaining percentage points in the fairer matchups and playing the sideboard/matchup roulette like everyone else. If you play Terminus with too few ways to put it back on top, then you're setting yourself up to draw it early and lose to having no boardwipe against otherwise good matchups.

I'd much rather pivot to a Gideon otT, and Gideon Ally list with a set of 4 mana wraths, personally.

Otherwise, I 100% agree with your sentiment on the Jace/Terminus dependency.

Quote from EoTGifts »

It seems that the 3/2 split is pretty much consensus, so I'll just try it myself and see whether it improves things. Maybe the third JTMS then takes the slot of the fourth Terminus, with a couple of cantrips and such we should be able to find them. How many 4 mana wraths do you play? I currently opted für a 1-of Verdict, 4 mana still seems a little clunky, especially against hasty threats (and they are pretty bad against Phoenix).

I don't recommend cutting any Terminus. You're putting them in your deck to cast them consistently, so go all in and play 4. You'll get used to it. The slots I could see cutting from the list you posted before are the 2nd Snare, the Mission Briefing, and the 2nd Negate.

I do run 1 Verdict because it seems pretty standard, but I'm starting to wonder if it's even necessary -- many of the deck we want boardwipes against laugh at Verdict (Dredge, Hollow One, Bridgevine, Bogles with totem armor, etc). Against everyone else, 4 mana wraths actually seem pretty bad. Does anyone else feel similarly? The only decks I can think of that I actually want Verdict against are Humans and Affinity, and Affinity loses pretty hard to Terminus anyways.

Personally, I was running a split of Wrath/Verdict main for a long time to compensate for the fact that I wasn't totally comfortable playing Terminus. Now that I've gotten a decent grasp on how to play with Terminus in the list, I don't feel like I even need the 1 Verdict I currently run.

Quote from EoTGifts »

I am glad you had a look. You are mostly right, the meta consists of quite a chunk of G Tron, Valakut and a few control variants (mostly UWx, but also UBx) against which Crucible is the all-star. One thing Mouth of Ronom also does is deal with manlands, which is one of the reasons if not the reason to play 4-5 LD lands, so this slot doesn't miss out on this aspect. Additionally, against aggressive strategies (of which there are some in every meta I guess) it gives some extra outs.

Regarding Entreat this is also my take, stealing some games with a set up Entreat at the end of the opponent's turn, but it's a fringe application which is why I have gone down to a single one. The number of PWs is atm. tailored such that I can assemble the list from my binder, basically. I was thinking of going up to 2 Teferis which would make a 2/2 split. How crucial is the 3rd Jace in your opinion?

I personally wouldn't play fewer than 3 Jaces. I know it's only 1 card, but the impact is definitely noticeable, to the point where I felt like my list with 2 Jaces was too clunky and my list with 3 is fine.

I've been playing 2 Ousts main for a while and I have to admit that I haven't seen humans around much these days. I only play at FNM anyways, so maybe it's not very representative. Anyways, it may be worth it to play Condemn instead, though I'd probably split the 2 Oust into a Condemn and either an Alliance main or a 2nd DSphere.

I will also be playing an Absorb to see how it goes, not sure what the cut is tho.

Quote from greywyn »

Quote from chaos021 »

Since when has Esper been the king of control mirrors?

It isn’t, and never has been.

Uhh, hi. Welcome to the thread. /sarcasm

Yeah, Esper has always been favored in control mirrors.

Quote from Cody_X »

Sometimes I feel like the only person on the planet who likes jace and dislikes sfa.
Jace is legitimately powerful in this deck. Hes relatively easy to kill, and he is sorcery speed, but hes only 4 mana, and his floor is better than draw a card + gain 3 life, which is more appealing to me than most other wincons. Hes a goid card advantage engine, he actually wins the game if needed (and through bridge, infinite life, etc), and he attacks on a unique angle (fateseal) that synergizes well with mind rots. He does require a clean board, but this deck in general does too.
Not to mention that bouncing a creature lets us counter it again, or forces them to commit into board wipes.
And of course, that doesnt touch on how useful brainstorm (compared to just drawing) can be.

I feel like im just listing out what the card does, which everyone knows, but jace has legitimately played well for me since hes been unbanned. Im not sure if other peoples experiences are widely different, but I frequently find myself wanting to draw him, and he does ditch multiples. Theres also the usefulness of splitting walkers so you can have 2 in play at once.

I do still enjoy the pure draw-go style, but I dont think we can still convince ourselves its worth playing now that we have real woryhwhile options at sorcery speed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still iffy on SfA, but Jace has been a whole new realm of awkward for me. I always either die with him in my hand, or he dies the turn after I play him, or I die after I play him because I just gave them a window to resolve something annoying.

Playing Jace and Fatesealing a Jeskai opponent only to have them jam Teferi and minus (or just uptick and eventually deal with Jace with Bolt/Snap/Bolt) feels gross. Not that there are better card advantage engines to play, tho.

I've gotten far more milage out of Gideon of the Trials than Jace, because it's the lifegain effect while seldom actually dying.

@Cody I'm honestly super surprised you'd still play Jace in a list without Terminus.

I don't know if this is actually relevant to our deck (I feel like it isn't playable), but since a few people have mentioned it on the thread before - Absorb finally got a reprint into Modern.

Funny question. If you guys were to play a build without Terminus, what would it look like? Would you be on Spreading Seas? Mainboard Settles? I've been testing around with the Terminus builds, but I completely abhor Opt and other options, such as Hieroglyphic Illumination, and I've never been particularly impressed by Jace either (even though I own a few copies). I mulligan away Terminus far more often than I miracle it!

I only really play locally, so I figured I can just play what I want. Here's my current list:

Quote from Galerion »

Hi guys

I asked this already in a dedicated thread but didn't get that many responses so I figured I might ask people playing the deck directly. Here is the short version of it. Im a returning player who left shorty after the AV/Sword unbannings but now I want to get into Magic again. I am an online only player and I can either get Jund or UW Control but not both. I have already played both decks in the past so I know what Im getting into.

So how do you guys see UW Control positioned currently and in the foreseeable future? Is it a good time to get into the deck?
And lastly what happened in the last two years? When I left UW/x Control was always kinda there but never really in the spotlight and at the top but that seems to have changed.

I think that, for the moment at least, Jund isn't in a great place (idk why, I don't play it). I personally think that UW has been getting better and better and and it definitely has to do with a few cards in particular: Field of Ruin has been a huge boon to the archetype that people never seem to mention, but it's been a very nice effect to have and playing 4 has been a main draw for me to play UW over having any splash color. Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Search for Azcanta have great, and the Jace, the Mind Sculptor unban made miracles both playable and a top contender. But before all of these, there were also some 4 Spreading Seas/4 Field UW lists with Gideon of the Trials and friends that even made tier 1 for a little while, so UW has been pretty good for a while. If you were to buy into UW, I almost guarantee you will have a playable deck in some form, and splashing R or B is pretty easy once you have the core.

Not to hate on Jund, but I feel that its Abzan and BG counterparts aren't on the same level as Jund is (at least until a SFM unban), while both UW and Jeskai are most certainly playable, and Esper is alright but has seen better times. So, competitively, UWx gives you more customization.

How do you guys feel about playing 1 Prairie Stream over the 2nd Hallowed Fountain? I know it's been tried before, but we don't need as many white sources as we did when we played Gid of the Trials and 3/4 wraths.

Colonnade -> Island -> Plains/Island/Field+activate -> fetch Stream seems Ideal.

Anecdotal experience incoming...

Quote from TomCourtenay »

1) How are Ancestral Vision, Glimmer of Genius and Hieroglyphic Illumination for those who have tested these ? Ancestral Vision is always a dear one of mine, Glimmer is great when it's on, but when it's stuck in hand, it really was annoying. Illumination is very versatile so far.

Imo, Ancestral has always been trash (just my opinion). Even on T1, Ancestral is just so slow (but good nonetheless if you aren't already dead). It would be fine if extras could be hardcasted later on, but they just can't. For this reason, I've never found AV to be particularly good. Glimmer is great, but just too slow (a 4 mana spell is just never being cast against AdNaus, Burn, Storm, etc., even at instant speed). Hieroglyphic is probably fine, but cycling it feels so anemic that it makes you feel like you shouldn't be playing it. In fact, Opt or Serum might just be better at that point, since I've rarely ever casted Hiero for 4 mana. I think Opt/Serum is probably better than any of these, despite not truly being card advantage, because it's actually worth its CMC and you get your value from it immediately. Not sure I would even play Opt tho.

2) How's Search for Azcanta for you guys ? I find it great for filtering draws, however I don't use it that much for it's 3CMC card selection mode. I'm pondering betwen 2 SfA and a split between Ancestral Vision and Hieroglyphic Illumination (even 2 Think Twice). Thoughts?

Search for Azcanta is fine. I think a 2-mana Think Tank actually is somewhat playable, actually, but it feels terrible to commit mana into it some times. I think I use the land side for blue mana more often than actually activating it, honestly. Ramping into Snap-Verdict or Snap-Cryptic, for example, is actually pretty cool, not to mention that it actually fixes your mana for Cryptic. Perhaps I wouldn't be playing it, but the issue is that you can't win mirrors if they're playing Azcanta and Fields and you're not playing Azcanta, since we only have 2-3 fields (sometimes less) to actually deal with Azcanta. I never want to blow an Esper Charm on their SfA if I can avoid it.

At the end of the day, my Esper lists still start with 4 Charms and 4 Think Twice, because they get the job done in ways that other cards just can't. I usually play 2 SfA also, but it's because it's the best option of what's left and a complete mirror breaker.

Admittedly, Thought Erasure still takes anything without loss of life, so it might be okay, but I honestly don't have high hopes. I think most would play Inquisition of Kozilek instead, even if it's a little worse against Tron for example, and that's assuming you want to play discard at all. I think mainboard you'd probably want Inquisition, but Thoughtseize is the best sideboard discard spell.

With that said, it's not like Castigate ever saw play, so...

Let me preface this comment with the fact that I've been playing predominantly UW Control/Miracles for the past year or more, and generally think it's a better meta choice. Just for clarity.

Quote from BloodyRabbit_01 »

So Tron is improving with Charm instead of three Field/Quarter - heh.

Charm lets you empty Tron's hand once you begin to stabilize (or if they stumble), thus attacking their threat density (one of their 2 vital resources: the Tron lands themselves, and their threats). Cutting Field/GQ for a different type of resource denial could still be good against them. Though, I will concede that ECharm is easily played around by holding up Stars/Spheres/Relics, which happens to me quite often when playing Esper.

Spirits is improving because you’re casting a useless cc3 istant spell that doesn’t impact the board - heh.

It's better than playing your sorcery-speed card advantage at the mercy of your opponent. Casting your spells when you want to is better than doing so when your opponent wants you to, especially your tempo opponent (which spirits often is against Esper).

Manabase is comparable between UW and ‘I need UWB by turn 3’ deck - heh.

Well, the extra removal you get in black and relatively cheap card draw to find it likely save you as much life as you take from your lands anyways. So it probably is a wash. I'm not convinced on this issue though.

Humans improves because ‘who cares about the self-damage, we’re casting black spells’ - heh.

Killing Meddling Mage at instant speed definitely improves the humans matchup. Ousting one can't let you cast that Miracled Terminus, for example. (If you're playing them.)

Against Hollow One and Dredge Oust isn’t better than Push - heh.

Yet Push is more useful against Dark Confidant, manlands, and other threats. Each card has its place.

Again, I typically play UW more often than Esper these days, but you shouldn't pretend that other people don't have real arguements.

Quote from BloodyRabbit_01 »

So, switching off of *2 Field of Ruins and Planeswalkers to run Charms for control mirrors, *Fatal Push for Meddling Mages/Freebooters, and Seize in the board. Really, I don’t get the point of playing a *metagamed UW Miracle list.

Fixed that for you.