I guess I should reiterate. 2 nights competitively, but this has been in the lab for far more with friends who are on competitive builds of:
- Jeskai
- Merfolk
- Humans
And proxies of
- Elves
- Grixis Pyro
And there were still many cases where Claim/Devil went to work.
A merfolk game in particular took an easy 16 damage from consecutive hits of Claim and Vexing.
Again, I still wouldn’t suggest everyone should be on it, but I also wouldn’t dream of suggesting these are the snap cuts for cards. I’d have to do a lot of testing of this card to see if it’s useful/more useful.
“but I expect that those aren't very common situations“
100% of these last two nights have incorporated at least one interaction of Claim, and several involing Vexing Devil.
I wouldn’t say it wins all games, but the only time I could ever say Claim was a dead card was when a fishman or control player dealt with my black source. But that’s not the card’s fault; it had loads of targets to work from. Especially fame’s double work with Swiftspear.
I could probably see myself going down a Devil and Shard Volley to try two of these new cards. Maybe it’s just our different environments, but Vexing/Claim have been unbelievably powerful.
As for the new card, seems like a strictly better Alms, and at least worth jamming. The problem is what to cut?
I’ve tried all the cute variants black has and I’d agree that Gonti’s Machinations isn’t great. It was a build-around-me card where I needed painlands to improve the reliability of triggering it, and was never really happy to topdeck one.
I’d concur that RW burn decks may be more resilient, and the better build of burn, but there’s a lot to be said about RB’s explosive raw power - It was how I was able to do as well as I did. The games vs Merfolk and Storm they each took 12-16 damage by turne 1-3 off repeated Vexing Devil/Claim.
I wouldn’t say a 2 mana Alms of the Vein is suddenly a reason to play black. That reason is Bob. He solves burn’s biggest shortcoming which is refueling you hand after inevitably gassing out. In most cases, it survives removal since it’s not the one beating down.
It looked like it was based off of Magic_Aids' video, highlighting the new Voltaic Servant.
Forgot to update; 0-2 dropped after facing Bogles. He had it pretty easily in game 1. Game 2 I had the best topdeck of a Cyclonic Rift which reset him, leaving my Wurmcoil free to crunch. Game 3 after mulling to 4 (7 was 6 lands and an expo map, 6 and 5 were no lands) - which is the worst feeling a control deck could feel, I just teetered off from there.
And tbh I don't view DS as one either, but it seems to be at least within or skating around the RB boundaries (4 Buides, 4 Swiftspear, 8 burn spells) The biggest differences are the addition of Bobs, Abbots, DS, and Mutagenic Growth.
I don’t know if this had been posted to the group yet but has anyone seen the newer RB list running Death’s Shadow, and 4 bolts/4 spikes? Is that considered a pseudo burn list?
So far 0-1 my first opponent was on Green Tron. Game 1 I nearly had it. Tron was online and I had a mid game cyc-rift to reset their board. Ugin’s ult unfortunately got me nothing of value and his Inkmoth was too high to deal with. Game 2 was a quick finish with a large boardstate where no matter my blocks they still had lethal.
You've seemed to streamline your landbase to do away with lands like Gemstone, Tolaria, Oboro, etc.
I'm suggesting, for at least my landbase, to perhaps take out tolaria and add that single sunken ruins to further any colour fixing needed. I wouldn't count Tolaria as a blue source in the same way that you don't count Sunken Ruins. It doesn't give me immediate access, it's more often than not even used as a land, and you're at a conceivable bad position if that is your land for turn. However, going by the 10 blue source rule of thumb, most lists here seem to include it in their 10.
I get that, there's a downside. One could argue there's a drawback in always needing to keep your land-drops in check to work around a dual-land that's only ever one colour when certain conditions arise.
So let's use your list as an example, since you've inspired a considerable amount of change in mine. It's our turn, we didn't draw a land, and have 1 tron, 1 x colorless land, and 2 river of tears on board. Our opponent has a gurmag or reality smasher to smash in for our remaining 4 life, and we have that Dismember in hand to clear it, but can't.
Alternatively, Say we've a the same colorless spread, but a sunken and island on board - or heck, a River of Tears. It wouldn't matter what conditional value River of Tears is at, we're always, always going to fix it.
I'd personally think it's worth running in conjunction with River.
What about Sunken Ruins? Doesn't come tapped, it may not immediately give you colour access but you'll always get colourless, and you get all UB combinations if need be?
I'm going to run this as is tomorrow. I am curious though, what are the biggest benefits to running River of Tears over say, Drowned Catacombs? I get there's always the chance that Catacombs may come tapped, but at the same time you're also forced to play around River's land clause to produce Blue or Black. For decks that are heavy on dismember, wouldn't it be better to ensure you're hitting black or do you just not care about the life loss?
Yeahh not a great showing for me. Gifts had been something I always boarded out so I don’t think I’m suited enough to be a gifts deck and should probably cut the gift-centred cards out for something that more streamlined U-tron decks run.
- Jeskai
- Merfolk
- Humans
And proxies of
- Elves
- Grixis Pyro
And there were still many cases where Claim/Devil went to work.
A merfolk game in particular took an easy 16 damage from consecutive hits of Claim and Vexing.
Again, I still wouldn’t suggest everyone should be on it, but I also wouldn’t dream of suggesting these are the snap cuts for cards. I’d have to do a lot of testing of this card to see if it’s useful/more useful.
100% of these last two nights have incorporated at least one interaction of Claim, and several involing Vexing Devil.
I wouldn’t say it wins all games, but the only time I could ever say Claim was a dead card was when a fishman or control player dealt with my black source. But that’s not the card’s fault; it had loads of targets to work from. Especially fame’s double work with Swiftspear.
I could probably see myself going down a Devil and Shard Volley to try two of these new cards. Maybe it’s just our different environments, but Vexing/Claim have been unbelievably powerful.
But I will probably go down to 1 and increase firecraft to 2. That card flat out won my matches vs Jeskai.
First night:
Game 1 - Merfolk 2-0
Game 2 - Humans 2-1
Game 3 - Pox 0-2
Last night:
Game 1: Storm 2-0
Game 2: Jeskai control 2-1
Game 3: RG Eldrazi 2-1
My deck is RB
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Vexing Devil
3 Dark Confidant
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Spells
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Shard Volley
4 Rift Bolt
3 Claim // Fame
4 Arid Mesa
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Kari Zev’s Expertise
3 Guerrilla Tactics
1 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Exquisite Firecraft
As for the new card, seems like a strictly better Alms, and at least worth jamming. The problem is what to cut?
I’ve tried all the cute variants black has and I’d agree that Gonti’s Machinations isn’t great. It was a build-around-me card where I needed painlands to improve the reliability of triggering it, and was never really happy to topdeck one.
I’d concur that RW burn decks may be more resilient, and the better build of burn, but there’s a lot to be said about RB’s explosive raw power - It was how I was able to do as well as I did. The games vs Merfolk and Storm they each took 12-16 damage by turne 1-3 off repeated Vexing Devil/Claim.
I wouldn’t say a 2 mana Alms of the Vein is suddenly a reason to play black. That reason is Bob. He solves burn’s biggest shortcoming which is refueling you hand after inevitably gassing out. In most cases, it survives removal since it’s not the one beating down.
2 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
Enchantments:
4 Bridge from Below
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Ashen Rider
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Will
2 Archive Trap
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
1 Whirlpool Drake
1 Whirlpool Rider
Forgot to update; 0-2 dropped after facing Bogles. He had it pretty easily in game 1. Game 2 I had the best topdeck of a Cyclonic Rift which reset him, leaving my Wurmcoil free to crunch. Game 3 after mulling to 4 (7 was 6 lands and an expo map, 6 and 5 were no lands) - which is the worst feeling a control deck could feel, I just teetered off from there.
And tbh I don't view DS as one either, but it seems to be at least within or skating around the RB boundaries (4 Buides, 4 Swiftspear, 8 burn spells) The biggest differences are the addition of Bobs, Abbots, DS, and Mutagenic Growth.
So far 0-1 my first opponent was on Green Tron. Game 1 I nearly had it. Tron was online and I had a mid game cyc-rift to reset their board. Ugin’s ult unfortunately got me nothing of value and his Inkmoth was too high to deal with. Game 2 was a quick finish with a large boardstate where no matter my blocks they still had lethal.
I'm suggesting, for at least my landbase, to perhaps take out tolaria and add that single sunken ruins to further any colour fixing needed. I wouldn't count Tolaria as a blue source in the same way that you don't count Sunken Ruins. It doesn't give me immediate access, it's more often than not even used as a land, and you're at a conceivable bad position if that is your land for turn. However, going by the 10 blue source rule of thumb, most lists here seem to include it in their 10.
So let's use your list as an example, since you've inspired a considerable amount of change in mine. It's our turn, we didn't draw a land, and have 1 tron, 1 x colorless land, and 2 river of tears on board. Our opponent has a gurmag or reality smasher to smash in for our remaining 4 life, and we have that Dismember in hand to clear it, but can't.
Alternatively, Say we've a the same colorless spread, but a sunken and island on board - or heck, a River of Tears. It wouldn't matter what conditional value River of Tears is at, we're always, always going to fix it.
I'd personally think it's worth running in conjunction with River.
What about Sunken Ruins? Doesn't come tapped, it may not immediately give you colour access but you'll always get colourless, and you get all UB combinations if need be?
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Treasure Mage
3 Walking Ballista
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Lands:
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Tower
4 Urza's Power Plant
1 Tolaria West
3 River of Tears
2 Field of Ruin
5 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Spells:
2 Supreme Will
4 Condescend
2 Repeal
4 Dismember
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Aetherspouts
2 Remand
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Expedition Map
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Mindslaver
4 Spatial Contortion
2 Spreading Seas
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 All Is Dust
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thought-Knot Seer
I'm going to run this as is tomorrow. I am curious though, what are the biggest benefits to running River of Tears over say, Drowned Catacombs? I get there's always the chance that Catacombs may come tapped, but at the same time you're also forced to play around River's land clause to produce Blue or Black. For decks that are heavy on dismember, wouldn't it be better to ensure you're hitting black or do you just not care about the life loss?