Aaron confirmed that tokens and tips & tricks cards will be staying through Lorwyn and beyond. Also, more tokens in the Expert Sets than were in 10th.
I didn't note anything else important.
I would love a link to this, but does this mean that Lorwyn will have rules cards explaining the new type not because it is complex enough to need a rules card to explain it, but rather because it is one of the most complex things in the set and as the set has rules cards it was put on one?
I don't use that argument, my argument is that there are enough sources who confirm Planeswalker while Tribal is only guessed at by people who 'examine' other sets.
we have ONE (1) unknown source that said "Wait for Lorwyn" when asked about planeswalkers in FS. This is hardly proof (Urzassed's sources have been wrong before). It is an argument, and it should be considered, and it has a fair amount of weight to it because Urzassed's is (and should be) trusted.
However if it were fact then Urzassed's would have locked these theads and issued infractions. He knows he doesn't have enough information to prove it, just a good source that implied (strongly) Lorwyn would have Planeswalkers when asked if FS would... it was WAY to early for solid info about Lorwyn.
The thread is about Planeswalkers NOT being in Lorwyn but in Jelly.
And it is about Tribal cards in Lorwyn, and yes! We have seen enough of them.
exactly, it is about Planeswalker being in Jelly and Tribal being in Lorwyn... it is about a new theory and can have it's own thread... if you don't like the theory either argue against it (with evidence) or ignore it.
Yes, but now you have two unmarked face down sets of cards - morph 2/2s and contraptions.
have we forgotten about Illusionary Mask? I don't blame you, stuff like that is better forgotten with the rules headaces it can give... but the game already has two types of face down permanants, and can support more if it needs to.
No offense... but I have no idea what you've just said. I've looked it over, but it just doesn't seem to make sense. Assembling is... what... like casting? Does it require other cards? It's an actiavted ability? That puts a card into play?
None taken, thats really why I didn't outline it before...
Okay so you have a number of cards with the ability "Assemble [cost]" what this means is that other cards will instruct you to assemble a particular card, and when instructed to do so you place that card in your graveyard unless it has assemble and you pay its assemble cost.
IE there will be a card that says "Search your library for a contraption and assemble it" so you find a contraption in your library (you can fail to find one if you want to because the search has critiria on it), and either put it into yoru graveyard, or pay it's assemble cost to put it into play.
Much like Morph is a cost that can only be payed when the card is face down, or madness is a cost that can only be payed when the madness ability triggers, Assemble (and another word may be better here) is a cost that can only be payed when something tells you to, and if you pay it then you play the card in question. Much like Madness replaces the usual discard from your hand by removing that card from the game and giving you a chance to pay it's madness cost to play it, or place it in your graveyard, this ability (which probably shouldn't be named Assemble as thats the effect it is triggering off) removes the card from the game and gives you a chance to pay it's assemble cost to play it (with the additional restriction that assemble costs may only be payed with 'part' mana, much like snow mana from coldsnap.
Consider all the abilities of the contraptions to be "Assembly [cost] (when instructed to assemble this card you may pay it's assembly cost to play it, otherwise put it into your graveyard. Assembly costs may only be payed with Part mana)" and see if it makes any more sence to you...
i have to agree (though very reluctantly) with the overly loquatious SunStormPrime: "assembled" isn't the state, it's the action and "Contraption" is the state/new object. Contraptions don't exist until they're "assembled" which is why my solution is so elegant:p (and by the way, the official FS FAQ says explicitly that Contraptions are artifacts!
but seriously sunstorm, take two, they're small::chillpill::chillpill:
To be specific Contraption is an artifact type (like equipment and fortification). This is stated in the FS FAQ and the Comp Rules.
There is seaweed on the closeup of the elf... last I knew they didn't wear seaweed but had mohawks occasionally.
you zoomed in on the picture and were surprised to see something that looked odd? Sounds a lot like the crown debate on the new artwork in 10th that is really just a helmet. It could be a leaf that in your zoom looks like sea weed, or it could be a mohawk on his shoulder (on the armor), or any number of other things (a dragon wing?), the picture is too small to say it must be sea weed, and even if it were the elfs may worship the ocean and use coral and sea weed to decorate thier armor.
As far as the mechanic of contraptions thats on a different blog so I cant lengthy comment here but I believe that contraptions will be allowed in play and be an In-Play non-creature token and the permanency to cards was added to only differentiate what a tribal permanent is... I do believe they are going to go with Tribal as a mechanic but this means tribal tutoring is going to go with other tribes apart from REBEL and MERCENARY!;) However making a permanency model might also allow Contraptions to be IN-Play non-creature tokens and this rules addition might help that design idea.
Contraption is an artifact type... as in
"Artifact - Contraption" not a type, super type, or anything else. We know this because it was added to the comprehensive rules. Thus a contraption can be anywhere an artifact can, which means it will be in play.
All the language about Permanents was added to support Tribal (also language about creatures as seen on Spitting Sliver for example was added for the same reason). Other changes may like the fact that it is there, but it is all needed for tribal, and thus doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.
Maybe it will help that I am sure that we will get them in Lorwyn.
///
Seriously, why have you started our 2925679346721th "Maybe we will have tribal in Lorwyn" thread when all the others have at least one Planeswalkers confirmation to close the discussions?
your signature includes the line "it won't be tribal, we had that in FS"... but clearly this is NOT true, to quote Rosewater's artical today...
Quote from Mark Rosewater on Monday July 16th »
One might think that adding the first new card type since Alpha (not a subtype like equipment but an honest to goodness new card type; and for my nit-picky readers, fine, the first card type introduced since mana sources) might be what I was referring to, but I'm talking bigger than that.
There is the line, from Rosewater himself. Since Alpha. Tribal doesn't count as having been released... he even mentiones the Mana Source (that has been discontinued) as a nit-pick, but DOESN'T MENTION Tribal. The card type that has actually seen print.
The argument "Tribal has already been released it can't be the 'new' card type" is officially shot down. This doesn't mean that Tribal *IS* the new card type, just that it *MIGHT* be. Planeswalker has a good shot of being the new card type as well, and it is still possible that Wizards decided to do something else entirely, just to drive home the 'red herrings' thing.
My apologies if I created a thread that I shouldn't have.
I've seen a lot of "Tribal's in Lorwyn", "Planeswalker's In Lowrwyn", "Both Are In", and "Neither is in". The idea the Tribal is in Lorwyn seems almost a given, but the idea that Plansewalker would be the completely separate theme of the second mini-block seemed new to me, and I thought it might need a new thread.
Again sorry for the rookie mistake.
ingore timmiej, making the thread isn't a bad idea, your idea isn't one I have seen before.
The fewer Planeswalker types you print, the easier it is to put them on the uncommon and common sheets, and I would lean to printing only 2 or 3 'walker types... with no more then 20 cards of any one type. Then if your playing red and a walker card shows up, but you know the next pack your gonna open this draft might have a common of another 'walker type you have to chose to risk this one being a dead draft card (kinda like drafting a dark banishing when you have already pulled 3 strong red cards, and really like a green common in the next set).
But really when it comes down to it the idea would need to be playtested to find the best uses of it, run those uses up and continue looking for new space for it...
1G for a trampleing 4/4 with Echo 2 is not balanced. You know; at all. The same goes for a first striking 4/1. This just looks like Echo all over again.
Uh, Ram? I didn't design it, I templated it. Not trying to balance anything. You will see I quoted Enemy within who actually posted the green card, the red one was just showing the 2 or more evolution counter clause... and I don't think any such mechanic is in our future... (besides the goblin is atleast close enough to balanced that you could playtest it and it should be okay with minor adjustments (like a CC of 2R, then it would be 6R for a 4/1 first strike, and you could break its casting cost into up to 3 parts. even so 5R isn't a bad stab at it. Keldon Halberdier is 4R, and has suspend if you want to play him for R, and he feels over-cost when you hard cast him.)
[edit: Keep in mind the red one you have as a 2/1 for your opponent's turn, so its no good as a blocker, and you have to pay 2 twice to get it first strike, so either its a 4/1 for another turn (and your paying echo 2 twice) (and no good as a blocker, and only worth attacking with if you want to trade, or they have no blockers) or has echo 4]
Or maybe it's just a Tribal Land... but... does it really say a "basic land" that's secret? That would be kind of weird...
It'd be nice to have Hybrid or an alternate-color-cast mechanic. It's exactly, what I'd wish myself for the new tribal set.
greetings
Z
well...
Voila! Okay. You've selected your starter game. Now if you were to bust it open, you'd see two randomized Tenth Editionbooster packs, a 20-card basic land pack, and a big, planeswalker-worthy quick-start guide that contains all the rules your new Magic buddy (little brother, girlfriend, roommate, uncle, whatever) needs to start playing. So bring your buddy to Magic Game Day and set ablaze someone's lurking planeswalker spark.
Note that the basic land pack contains a special treat for you, too—lands that feature a sneak peek at Lorwyn, Magic's next large expert-level set coming this October.
followed by a picture of 5 black cards with a red question mark on them and then...
They're so secret, we can't show you them here yet!
But then again, if it didn't matter to Tarmogoyf's ability/power and toughness why mention it?
I have said it a number of times.
The reminder text is not "these are the things that make Tarmogoyf bigger" its "these are the card types"
for example:
Tagmogoyf :1mana::symg:
Creature - Lhurgoyf
Tagmogoyf's power and toughness are equal to the number of card types among cards in play. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal.)
*/*
They wouldn't print it without Sorcery and Instant even though those card types can't be in play. The reminder text is a list of card types and thats all.
do a search for 'tagmogoyf' for a longer post on this.
Please - remember ability words are different from keywords. Griffins with flying HAVE FLYING! It's games text. Creatures with channel... have games text, but CHANNEL is not games text. Conceivably every vanilla creature could have the ability word "Vanilla" printed on it, and it's not games text. They still have no abilities.
Thus, assemble needs to be a rules-text loaded word, like regeneration, scry (ugh... in the middle of the sentence? COME ON, bad design), Fateseal, and even indestructible (though this is not a keyword).
So, at the end of the day we're back to where we started - what could assembling a contraption mean. It can't be an ability word for "putting a token into play", so either WOTC has keyworded "putting an artifact token of a certain type" into play - OR, as I have suggested, there is more to this "assembling" - in my case, you have to ASSEMBLE the token! (IE, write it on a blank sheet of token paper). To make sense, and so that it's not easier to just "put a copy of X into play", you must create the token from multiple sources.
Which is exactly what I gave you...
I coulda sworn that Maro or Gottlieb said that Assmeble needed to be EITHER an ability word (hellbent) or a game defined word (regeneration) for the text to 'work' but that either would do...
anyhow the example isn't how I would implement contraptions (note that I don't think the way I would do it will ever see print, IF and when contraptions see print I expect them to be different then how I would do them.)
For a quick run down on how I would do it...
Cards (or tokens generated by cards) like:
Flux Capassador 1
Part Artifact - Contraption
Sacrifice ~: Add U to your mana pool.
Assemble 1 (When instructed to assemble this artifact you may pay 1 and put it into play, otherwise put it into your graveyard. You may only use Part mana to pay this cost)
Delorian 4
Part Artifact - Contraption
Sacrifice ~: Add 1RR to your mana pool.
Assemble 3 (When instructed to assemble this artifact you may pay 3 and put it into play, otherwise put it inot your graveyard. You may only use Part mana to pay this cost)
The Time Machine from 'that' movie 7
Artifact - Contraption
~ comes into play tapped. t, Sacrifice ~: Take an extra turn after this one.
Assemble 1RRU (When instructed to assemble this artifact you may pay 1RRU and put it into play, otherwise put it into your graveyard. You may only use Part mana to pay this cost)
Mons's Goblin Artificer 2RR
Creature - Goblin Rigger T: Search your library for a contraption and assemble it.
2/3
Mons's Goblin Archeoligist 1RR
Creature - Goblin Rigger T: Chose a contraption in your graveyard and assemble it.
1/2
Mons's Goblin Industrialist 2R
Creature - Goblin Rigger T: Discard a contraption from your hand and assemble it.
2/2
Bucket of Spare Parts 2
Part Artifact
~ comes into play tapped. T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
But thats a lot more work to define and explain then anyone wants.
Now I would tend to name the actual parts things like Lead Pipe (red), Sprogit (blue), Brace (white), Powercell (green), and Razor Blades (black). then require a gun to have RBG, or a golem to need 2BGU, and include the bucket of spair parts as is. Keep in mind that the color of the mana is largely meaningless (and would probably appear only in the Flux Capasitor variant (1 to cast, sac for one of that color) and possibly a 'magic part' that is 1 to cast, 1+sac to add one mana of any color, and then spare parts buckets in various sizes). Assembling two contraptions instead of one just means that you search your library, chose two contraptions in your graveyard, or discard two from your hand instead of doing whatever the action is once. But there is a large need to rules polishing on this and it looks a little goofy (and is more trouble then its worth in a normal set, though it would fit right in an Un-set).
Are you commenting on the posts I'm making, or making up posts in your head to reply to?
Planeswalkers can be attacked, given mana, cast spells and grant bonus effects to those spells. Considering the thing you do like, over 70% of the time in MTG is CAST SPELLS I fail to see how you can say this mechanic isn't interactive. And, since players can attack them, it creates interesting situations. Example
You never said they could be cast at as though players...
Pyrohemia does 1 damage to each creature and each player. It doesn't hurt Planeswalkers unless the rules state that planeswalkers are considered players... but then what happens when all players discard a card, all players draw a card, durring each players first main phase of a turn that player adds GG to his or her mana pool...
Your example is not at all templated to let any of that happen, saying a planeswalker card has a lifetotal doesn't tell me they can be attacked or lightning bolted, it only tells me that there is a stat there that something else intereacts with, but it could be a black spell with the text "All planeswalkers lose 3 life until end of turn" or a red spell with "As an additional cost to play this spell sacrifice a planeswalker. ~ does an amount of damage equal to the sacrificed planeswalker's life to target creature or player."
If a planeswalker shares your turn and skips it's attack phase (from a forced effect) do you also skip your attack phase?
Your implementation of planeswalker shares the caster's hand, doesn't have a mana pool, and has a life total. Why would I assume it can be targeted by anything that targets a player (like Hymn to Turach)? when most of these things can't possibly affect it (it also doesn't seem to have anything in play as the player who controls it gets to play cards with 'its mana', so they go into play under the player's control, not the planeswalker).
I have a planeswalker out. This planeswalker has 4 life, and gives a spell the ability "Draw a card" when it casts that spell. My opponent can choose to attack it, but that means he's wasting power which could take out my life total. Also, if I had creatures, I could block the attackers shooting for the 'walker. And if my opponent attacks me, maybe I could block with the 'walker. Haven't thought too much about that last bit, but meh.
you did say other players could attack the walker as though it were a player, but why can you block for the walker? is it like 2HG? but that format the players share a life total and you attack the team, not a specific player. When a creature has the ability "You may chose to have ~ deal its combat damage to defending player instead of any creature blocking it" like Thorn Elemental, who takes the damage if you block for your planeswalker, you or the 'walker?
Maybe the ability to give your 'walker mana should be only as a sorcery, or only during your upkeep or something restrictive like that, or limit the amount of mana they can hold (which I think I stated in my original post about this). There's actually a lot of room to work with this kind of thing. It's not as un-interactive as you think. And you're not explaining WHY you think they're uninteractive either. You're just saying, "Oh they're just enchantments with a life total". But you point out to me one enchantment that can actually cast spells for you. And that's only a base idea. Maybe you could spend mana to transfer control of your creatures to a 'walker, and then they have abilities such as "attackers this controls get +3/-2" or something.
well Ice Cauldron can cast spells for me, given its an artifact, but the same idea could just as easily appear on an enchantment. And really your idea doesn't have the planeswalker casting the spell for you it only stores the mana for you, so Eldamari's Vineyard or Gaea's Touch count just as well.
EDIT: @ Melriken: Did you forget about the life total? Planeswalkers count as players in my grand scheme. So they can be attacked and shot with burn and abilities, and enchanted with "Enchant Player" cards and all sorts of stuff to remove them.
but they are not a player so I can't Lightning bolt them I have to Lorwyn Bolt them (Lorwyn bolt is a 1R casting cost instant with "~ deals 3 damage to target Creature, Player or Planeswalker") Thus if I don't have any lorwyn cards I can't enteract with them.
And since they count as a player, any card to remove them outright would have to say "KILL TARGET PLAYER LAWL" which I doubt will happen...
"Lawl" is a very specific game term
even if they counted as a player you could still have a spell that said "Destroy target Planeswalker."
My complaint is not that Planeswalker wouldn't play well within Lorwyn, or even within Type 2...
My complaint was that in a casual environment where someone may be coming back to the game after not playing for 2 years their old decks are useless because they have no answers to planeswalkers... none at all, and they can't have had answers. It also causes problems when one player buys a case on release day, and the other players wait a week or two, or only by a few packs at a time... this KILLS the enjoyment of casual players which are a huge portion of the people who play magic. Not the group you want to drive off.
Your latest reply fixes a few of the problems... but I am still not a fan of this idea...
Edit: If I have creatures I can probably kill your Planeswalker first thing on my turn by attacking it with half my creatures, it doesn't have any creatures of its own or any way to gain creatures (and the only guess I have as to how you mean for it to get creatures is either you can block for it, or you can tap your creatures to give them to it... but tapped creatures can't block so its still going to die fast). Unless of course you give the walker a lot of life, then it might be easier to just attack the player and kill them, but that still leaves us with all the problems with a player entering the game late, sharing a deck with the caster (or having even bigger problems, especialy for say draft)...
The other goblin riggers around the Boss are hefting heavy objects. Note that their heads all have either an X or an O marked on them. The flavor text implies two classes of rigger workers, Xs and Os, that receive different form of motivational technique.
Artifact subtypes are also called artifact types. The list of artifact types, updated through the Future Sight set, is as follows: Contraption, Equipment, Fortification.
3: Assemble is a keyword (either full or sudo).
As in:
Mons's Archeologist 1R
Creature - Goblin Rigger Assemble -- 4: Sacrifice two artifacts, put a Contraption artifact token into play, this token gains all abilities of the two sacrificed artifacts.
Much like Hellbent is used.
i'm still the only guy to come up with a viable way to ASSEMBLE a Contraption that doesn't simply put a token into play:
That causes a mess with Morph, but it is possible.
I like the following Much better though:
Mons's Engineer 1R
Creature - Goblin Rigger Assemble --,T, Sacrifice an artifact: Search your library for a contraption with converted mana cost equal to or less then the sacrificed artifact and put it into play.
1/1
Assembling two contraptions just means you search your library for two and put both into play...
Well, legendary is a play restriction, not a deckbuilding one. In fact, at one stage, Legends were restricted to one per deck. The DCI decided that it was stupid to have a deckbuilding restriction that only existed for flavour reasons and rescinded the rule.
The way I heard it, they didn't like how swingy the game gets when you have lots of restricted cards... not to mention the first wave of legends didn't deserve a drawback at all, much less being restricted. But I guess I should look for the quote.
The Planeswalker rules that I outlined would let you do things like:
Serra Channeler 1W
Planeswalker Creature - Serra Cleric 1: add W to your mana pool.
2/1
Urza Channeler 2
Planeswalker Artifact Creature - Urza Golem 1: add one mana of any color to your mana pool, play this ability only once a turn.
1/2
Yawgmoth Channeler 1B
Planeswalker Creature - Yawgmoth Cleric 1: add B to your mana pool.
2/1
without enabling crazy multi-color decks. You could splash with them, but you couldn't use Urza's to play all the others, then splash groundbreaker in a non-green deck.
Also much like Legendary I would keep them in the Rare sheet, with some appearance in the uncommon sheet so that in draft you just take it and assume you won't get another of a different type.
Also note: I wouldn't align them with colors, I would align them with play style and often try to re-use the same planeswalkers between sets to help them play better.
If one walker has a number of neat wennie cards (small cheep effective creatures, like White Knight or Savana Lions) while another 'walker gets the "All creatures get +1/+1 and vigilance." and the next Daybreak Coronet then you get a nice pull between playing the walker with the good creatures, or play normal creatures and the walker with good creature enhancement spells, or play the walker with nice card draw, but you don't get the best of the creature stuff.
Think if Tarmogoyf, Mystic Teachings and Damnation were all on different 'walkers... Also you could print a card with multiple 'walker types on it, then a deck with any one of those walkers could use it...
or how about...
Champion of the Guildpact 3WW
Planeswalker Creature -- Guildpact Cleric (where Guildpact is a 'walker type)
Creatures you control have protection from mono-colored.
2/3
Champion of Chaos 3RR
Planeswalker Creature -- Chaos Cleric (where Chaos is a 'walker type)
Creatures you control have protection from multi-colored.
3/1
Also include some cheeper creatures with the protection on just themselves and maybe a creature that can grant the protection to other like Mother of Runes.
I don't know that its a great idea, but I do think its worthy of playtesting... however that requires a lot of good card ideas to give it a fair shot, and well there is a reason I haven't made an entire magic set...
If this evolution concept is true, it may not mean extra cards will be necessary to evolve (I hate saying that word, it makes me think of Duel Masters :sweat:) a creature. It might have the capability to evolve built into the card. Perhaps something like:
Grizzly Bears with Attitude :1mana::symg:
Creature- Bear Warrior
Evolve :2mana:: During your upkeep, you may pay :2mana:. If you do, put an Evolution counter on ~this~. This creature gets +2/+2 and has trample as long as it has an Evolution counter on it. This creature may have only one Evolution Counter on it at any time. 2/2.
There's probably a neater way to template that, but that's my idea of the concept. I really hope that the ability isn't named "Evolution" or "Evolve". It's been used in many other TCGs, usually geared toward younger children. I also really hope that the ability is built in, and doesn't require other cards to work. That would be really lame.
I would word that:
Grizzly Bears with Attitude :1mana::symg:
Creature- Bear Warrior
~This~ gets +2/+2 and has trample as long as it has an Evolution counter on it.
:2mana:: Put an evolution counter on ~this~, play this ability only during your upkeep.
2/2
you could also have
Big Bobgin 1R
Creature - Goblin beserker
~ gets +2/+0 as long as it has an Evolution counter on it.
~ has firststrike as long as it has 2 or more Evolution counters on it. 2: Put an evolution counter on ~, play this ability only durring your upkeep.
2/1
However I do not think that is what the OP ment.
I think the OP ment you will see Cats in the first set, Cat Warriors and Cat Shaman in the second, and Cat Wizards and Cat Soldiers in the third. (but obviously not Cats...)
Tribal has been printed... it is a type, we know it. Planeswalker has not been printed, but it has been mentioned many times that it is in the list of types on gatherer.
Lorwyn will have a brand new permanent type, Tribal was allready printed hence the only other permenant type we know of is planeswalker.
Tribal was printed on a future shifted card, if Bound in Silence is future shifted from Lorwyn it would be reasonable to claim (for marketing reasons) that Lorwyn introduced Tribal, not Future Sight.
There have been some un-confirmed references to an ad that states "Lorwyn will introduce the first new type since Alpha." which if correct means that Tribal doesn't count as having been introduced. We can only wait for the official press to release the new type (or a leak to tell us what new type(s) are in Lorwyn (ie finish the spoiler, or find out that a new type other then tribal is in lorwyn)).
Again like Goldmedow Lookout it is clearly not making 'soldier tokens' but specifically trying to do something else. (also its not human, but goblin. Human is the default for things, which is why you see Goblin Zombie, but not human zombie)
I would love a link to this, but does this mean that Lorwyn will have rules cards explaining the new type not because it is complex enough to need a rules card to explain it, but rather because it is one of the most complex things in the set and as the set has rules cards it was put on one?
If so thats a pro-tribal titbit...
we have ONE (1) unknown source that said "Wait for Lorwyn" when asked about planeswalkers in FS. This is hardly proof (Urzassed's sources have been wrong before). It is an argument, and it should be considered, and it has a fair amount of weight to it because Urzassed's is (and should be) trusted.
However if it were fact then Urzassed's would have locked these theads and issued infractions. He knows he doesn't have enough information to prove it, just a good source that implied (strongly) Lorwyn would have Planeswalkers when asked if FS would... it was WAY to early for solid info about Lorwyn.
exactly, it is about Planeswalker being in Jelly and Tribal being in Lorwyn... it is about a new theory and can have it's own thread... if you don't like the theory either argue against it (with evidence) or ignore it.
have we forgotten about Illusionary Mask? I don't blame you, stuff like that is better forgotten with the rules headaces it can give... but the game already has two types of face down permanants, and can support more if it needs to.
None taken, thats really why I didn't outline it before...
Okay so you have a number of cards with the ability "Assemble [cost]" what this means is that other cards will instruct you to assemble a particular card, and when instructed to do so you place that card in your graveyard unless it has assemble and you pay its assemble cost.
IE there will be a card that says "Search your library for a contraption and assemble it" so you find a contraption in your library (you can fail to find one if you want to because the search has critiria on it), and either put it into yoru graveyard, or pay it's assemble cost to put it into play.
Much like Morph is a cost that can only be payed when the card is face down, or madness is a cost that can only be payed when the madness ability triggers, Assemble (and another word may be better here) is a cost that can only be payed when something tells you to, and if you pay it then you play the card in question. Much like Madness replaces the usual discard from your hand by removing that card from the game and giving you a chance to pay it's madness cost to play it, or place it in your graveyard, this ability (which probably shouldn't be named Assemble as thats the effect it is triggering off) removes the card from the game and gives you a chance to pay it's assemble cost to play it (with the additional restriction that assemble costs may only be payed with 'part' mana, much like snow mana from coldsnap.
Consider all the abilities of the contraptions to be "Assembly [cost] (when instructed to assemble this card you may pay it's assembly cost to play it, otherwise put it into your graveyard. Assembly costs may only be payed with Part mana)" and see if it makes any more sence to you...
To be specific Contraption is an artifact type (like equipment and fortification). This is stated in the FS FAQ and the Comp Rules.
Contraption is an artifact type... as in
"Artifact - Contraption" not a type, super type, or anything else. We know this because it was added to the comprehensive rules. Thus a contraption can be anywhere an artifact can, which means it will be in play.
All the language about Permanents was added to support Tribal (also language about creatures as seen on Spitting Sliver for example was added for the same reason). Other changes may like the fact that it is there, but it is all needed for tribal, and thus doesn't tell us anything we don't already know.
your signature includes the line "it won't be tribal, we had that in FS"... but clearly this is NOT true, to quote Rosewater's artical today...
There is the line, from Rosewater himself. Since Alpha. Tribal doesn't count as having been released... he even mentiones the Mana Source (that has been discontinued) as a nit-pick, but DOESN'T MENTION Tribal. The card type that has actually seen print.
The argument "Tribal has already been released it can't be the 'new' card type" is officially shot down. This doesn't mean that Tribal *IS* the new card type, just that it *MIGHT* be. Planeswalker has a good shot of being the new card type as well, and it is still possible that Wizards decided to do something else entirely, just to drive home the 'red herrings' thing.
ingore timmiej, making the thread isn't a bad idea, your idea isn't one I have seen before.
But really when it comes down to it the idea would need to be playtested to find the best uses of it, run those uses up and continue looking for new space for it...
I do agree that color pie gives a lot of this same feeling, but this is a harder line, and gives another level to play that divide out over. It probably isn't enough to do something like Red enchantment removal on, but you could do black artifact control with it (Like tapping an artifact and preventing it from un-tapping as long as this effect is on it, or removing an artifact from the game as long as this enchantment stays in play)
Uh, Ram? I didn't design it, I templated it. Not trying to balance anything. You will see I quoted Enemy within who actually posted the green card, the red one was just showing the 2 or more evolution counter clause... and I don't think any such mechanic is in our future... (besides the goblin is atleast close enough to balanced that you could playtest it and it should be okay with minor adjustments (like a CC of 2R, then it would be 6R for a 4/1 first strike, and you could break its casting cost into up to 3 parts. even so 5R isn't a bad stab at it. Keldon Halberdier is 4R, and has suspend if you want to play him for R, and he feels over-cost when you hard cast him.)
[edit: Keep in mind the red one you have as a 2/1 for your opponent's turn, so its no good as a blocker, and you have to pay 2 twice to get it first strike, so either its a 4/1 for another turn (and your paying echo 2 twice) (and no good as a blocker, and only worth attacking with if you want to trade, or they have no blockers) or has echo 4]
well...
followed by a picture of 5 black cards with a red question mark on them and then...
check it yourself...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/1355
just click any of the starters...
the Lorwyn lands might not be basic... but they are in the basic land pack... so I assume that means they are basics...
I have said it a number of times.
The reminder text is not "these are the things that make Tarmogoyf bigger" its "these are the card types"
for example:
Tagmogoyf :1mana::symg:
Creature - Lhurgoyf
Tagmogoyf's power and toughness are equal to the number of card types among cards in play. (The card types are artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and tribal.)
*/*
They wouldn't print it without Sorcery and Instant even though those card types can't be in play. The reminder text is a list of card types and thats all.
do a search for 'tagmogoyf' for a longer post on this.
I coulda sworn that Maro or Gottlieb said that Assmeble needed to be EITHER an ability word (hellbent) or a game defined word (regeneration) for the text to 'work' but that either would do...
anyhow the example isn't how I would implement contraptions (note that I don't think the way I would do it will ever see print, IF and when contraptions see print I expect them to be different then how I would do them.)
For a quick run down on how I would do it...
Cards (or tokens generated by cards) like:
Flux Capassador 1
Part Artifact - Contraption
Sacrifice ~: Add U to your mana pool.
Assemble 1 (When instructed to assemble this artifact you may pay 1 and put it into play, otherwise put it into your graveyard. You may only use Part mana to pay this cost)
Delorian 4
Part Artifact - Contraption
Sacrifice ~: Add 1RR to your mana pool.
Assemble 3 (When instructed to assemble this artifact you may pay 3 and put it into play, otherwise put it inot your graveyard. You may only use Part mana to pay this cost)
The Time Machine from 'that' movie 7
Artifact - Contraption
~ comes into play tapped.
t, Sacrifice ~: Take an extra turn after this one.
Assemble 1RRU (When instructed to assemble this artifact you may pay 1RRU and put it into play, otherwise put it into your graveyard. You may only use Part mana to pay this cost)
Mons's Goblin Artificer 2RR
Creature - Goblin Rigger
T: Search your library for a contraption and assemble it.
2/3
Mons's Goblin Archeoligist 1RR
Creature - Goblin Rigger
T: Chose a contraption in your graveyard and assemble it.
1/2
Mons's Goblin Industrialist 2R
Creature - Goblin Rigger
T: Discard a contraption from your hand and assemble it.
2/2
Bucket of Spare Parts 2
Part Artifact
~ comes into play tapped.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
But thats a lot more work to define and explain then anyone wants.
Now I would tend to name the actual parts things like Lead Pipe (red), Sprogit (blue), Brace (white), Powercell (green), and Razor Blades (black). then require a gun to have RBG, or a golem to need 2BGU, and include the bucket of spair parts as is. Keep in mind that the color of the mana is largely meaningless (and would probably appear only in the Flux Capasitor variant (1 to cast, sac for one of that color) and possibly a 'magic part' that is 1 to cast, 1+sac to add one mana of any color, and then spare parts buckets in various sizes). Assembling two contraptions instead of one just means that you search your library, chose two contraptions in your graveyard, or discard two from your hand instead of doing whatever the action is once. But there is a large need to rules polishing on this and it looks a little goofy (and is more trouble then its worth in a normal set, though it would fit right in an Un-set).
You never said they could be cast at as though players...
Pyrohemia does 1 damage to each creature and each player. It doesn't hurt Planeswalkers unless the rules state that planeswalkers are considered players... but then what happens when all players discard a card, all players draw a card, durring each players first main phase of a turn that player adds GG to his or her mana pool...
Your example is not at all templated to let any of that happen, saying a planeswalker card has a lifetotal doesn't tell me they can be attacked or lightning bolted, it only tells me that there is a stat there that something else intereacts with, but it could be a black spell with the text "All planeswalkers lose 3 life until end of turn" or a red spell with "As an additional cost to play this spell sacrifice a planeswalker. ~ does an amount of damage equal to the sacrificed planeswalker's life to target creature or player."
If a planeswalker shares your turn and skips it's attack phase (from a forced effect) do you also skip your attack phase?
Your implementation of planeswalker shares the caster's hand, doesn't have a mana pool, and has a life total. Why would I assume it can be targeted by anything that targets a player (like Hymn to Turach)? when most of these things can't possibly affect it (it also doesn't seem to have anything in play as the player who controls it gets to play cards with 'its mana', so they go into play under the player's control, not the planeswalker).
you did say other players could attack the walker as though it were a player, but why can you block for the walker? is it like 2HG? but that format the players share a life total and you attack the team, not a specific player. When a creature has the ability "You may chose to have ~ deal its combat damage to defending player instead of any creature blocking it" like Thorn Elemental, who takes the damage if you block for your planeswalker, you or the 'walker?
well Ice Cauldron can cast spells for me, given its an artifact, but the same idea could just as easily appear on an enchantment. And really your idea doesn't have the planeswalker casting the spell for you it only stores the mana for you, so Eldamari's Vineyard or Gaea's Touch count just as well.
but they are not a player so I can't Lightning bolt them I have to Lorwyn Bolt them (Lorwyn bolt is a 1R casting cost instant with "~ deals 3 damage to target Creature, Player or Planeswalker") Thus if I don't have any lorwyn cards I can't enteract with them.
even if they counted as a player you could still have a spell that said "Destroy target Planeswalker."
My complaint is not that Planeswalker wouldn't play well within Lorwyn, or even within Type 2...
My complaint was that in a casual environment where someone may be coming back to the game after not playing for 2 years their old decks are useless because they have no answers to planeswalkers... none at all, and they can't have had answers. It also causes problems when one player buys a case on release day, and the other players wait a week or two, or only by a few packs at a time... this KILLS the enjoyment of casual players which are a huge portion of the people who play magic. Not the group you want to drive off.
Your latest reply fixes a few of the problems... but I am still not a fan of this idea...
Edit: If I have creatures I can probably kill your Planeswalker first thing on my turn by attacking it with half my creatures, it doesn't have any creatures of its own or any way to gain creatures (and the only guess I have as to how you mean for it to get creatures is either you can block for it, or you can tap your creatures to give them to it... but tapped creatures can't block so its still going to die fast). Unless of course you give the walker a lot of life, then it might be easier to just attack the player and kill them, but that still leaves us with all the problems with a player entering the game late, sharing a deck with the caster (or having even bigger problems, especialy for say draft)...
1: as http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/1326 says the Xs and Os are the riggers, not the contraptions...
2: Contraption is an Artifact Type, as listed in the comprehensive rules.
3: Assemble is a keyword (either full or sudo).
As in:
Mons's Archeologist 1R
Creature - Goblin Rigger
Assemble -- 4: Sacrifice two artifacts, put a Contraption artifact token into play, this token gains all abilities of the two sacrificed artifacts.
Much like Hellbent is used.
That causes a mess with Morph, but it is possible.
I like the following Much better though:
Mons's Engineer 1R
Creature - Goblin Rigger
Assemble -- ,T, Sacrifice an artifact: Search your library for a contraption with converted mana cost equal to or less then the sacrificed artifact and put it into play.
1/1
Assembling two contraptions just means you search your library for two and put both into play...
The way I heard it, they didn't like how swingy the game gets when you have lots of restricted cards... not to mention the first wave of legends didn't deserve a drawback at all, much less being restricted. But I guess I should look for the quote.
The Planeswalker rules that I outlined would let you do things like:
Serra Channeler 1W
Planeswalker Creature - Serra Cleric
1: add W to your mana pool.
2/1
Urza Channeler 2
Planeswalker Artifact Creature - Urza Golem
1: add one mana of any color to your mana pool, play this ability only once a turn.
1/2
Yawgmoth Channeler 1B
Planeswalker Creature - Yawgmoth Cleric
1: add B to your mana pool.
2/1
without enabling crazy multi-color decks. You could splash with them, but you couldn't use Urza's to play all the others, then splash groundbreaker in a non-green deck.
Also much like Legendary I would keep them in the Rare sheet, with some appearance in the uncommon sheet so that in draft you just take it and assume you won't get another of a different type.
Also note: I wouldn't align them with colors, I would align them with play style and often try to re-use the same planeswalkers between sets to help them play better.
If one walker has a number of neat wennie cards (small cheep effective creatures, like White Knight or Savana Lions) while another 'walker gets the "All creatures get +1/+1 and vigilance." and the next Daybreak Coronet then you get a nice pull between playing the walker with the good creatures, or play normal creatures and the walker with good creature enhancement spells, or play the walker with nice card draw, but you don't get the best of the creature stuff.
Think if Tarmogoyf, Mystic Teachings and Damnation were all on different 'walkers... Also you could print a card with multiple 'walker types on it, then a deck with any one of those walkers could use it...
or how about...
Champion of the Guildpact 3WW
Planeswalker Creature -- Guildpact Cleric (where Guildpact is a 'walker type)
Creatures you control have protection from mono-colored.
2/3
Champion of Chaos 3RR
Planeswalker Creature -- Chaos Cleric (where Chaos is a 'walker type)
Creatures you control have protection from multi-colored.
3/1
Also include some cheeper creatures with the protection on just themselves and maybe a creature that can grant the protection to other like Mother of Runes.
I don't know that its a great idea, but I do think its worthy of playtesting... however that requires a lot of good card ideas to give it a fair shot, and well there is a reason I haven't made an entire magic set...
I would word that:
Grizzly Bears with Attitude :1mana::symg:
Creature- Bear Warrior
~This~ gets +2/+2 and has trample as long as it has an Evolution counter on it.
:2mana:: Put an evolution counter on ~this~, play this ability only during your upkeep.
2/2
you could also have
Big Bobgin 1R
Creature - Goblin beserker
~ gets +2/+0 as long as it has an Evolution counter on it.
~ has firststrike as long as it has 2 or more Evolution counters on it.
2: Put an evolution counter on ~, play this ability only durring your upkeep.
2/1
However I do not think that is what the OP ment.
I think the OP ment you will see Cats in the first set, Cat Warriors and Cat Shaman in the second, and Cat Wizards and Cat Soldiers in the third. (but obviously not Cats...)
Tribal is a type.
if they do this I REALLY hope it is in the form of Offering, not in the form of "BB, Sacrifice ~: put a card named Bob from your hand into play.".
Tribal has been printed... it is a type, we know it. Planeswalker has not been printed, but it has been mentioned many times that it is in the list of types on gatherer.
Tribal was printed on a future shifted card, if Bound in Silence is future shifted from Lorwyn it would be reasonable to claim (for marketing reasons) that Lorwyn introduced Tribal, not Future Sight.
There have been some un-confirmed references to an ad that states "Lorwyn will introduce the first new type since Alpha." which if correct means that Tribal doesn't count as having been introduced. We can only wait for the official press to release the new type (or a leak to tell us what new type(s) are in Lorwyn (ie finish the spoiler, or find out that a new type other then tribal is in lorwyn)).
makes red and white soldiers...
Again like Goldmedow Lookout it is clearly not making 'soldier tokens' but specifically trying to do something else. (also its not human, but goblin. Human is the default for things, which is why you see Goblin Zombie, but not human zombie)