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  • posted a message on Speculation for Return to Theros
    Quote from Manite »
    Quote from Melriken »
    Quote from Manite »
    I could see Devotion, Heroic, and Monstrosity all returning as a result.


    I am going to go out on a bit of a limb and say... I think Heroic was the worst mistake in Theros and the cause of almost all of it's issues.

    Heroic makes creatures grow, reducing the need for auras.
    Heroic increases the value of Auras, forcing design to under power them so they aren't too strong in actual play. (they go in the same decks as Auras and consume significant amounts of the power available to those cards)
    Heroic creates a desire to design cards that target multiple creatures, these are typically instant or sorceries not enchantments, but they are positive effects that target your own creatures and thus occupy the same design space as Auras.

    R&D knows all this and will look for a heroic mechanic that better fits from a flavor standpoint and doesn't have all these downsides.

    I predict bestow will return at a significantly reduced cost and that Heroic will not return.

    There are 14 cards with Totem Armor and 35 with Bestow note. Totem armor is the stronger mechanic in all cases other than 'I have no creatures in play and draw this card' (namely if you have a creature with 3 totem armors vs a creature with 3 bestows, all cards otherwise identical, the totem armor version is stronger). Yet totem armor costs significantly less. Look at Drake Umbra and Nimbus Naiad they cost the same but the Totem Armor version gives an additional +1/+1. Same for Mammoth Umbra and Observant Alseid. Cards like Hyena Umbra have no direct analog, but it would cost at least 2W and likely 3W. I believe that without Heroic in the set that Bestow could be stronger, and that the set could include more auras and Bestow creatures (replacing cards like Coordinated Assault, Cutthroat Maneuver, Dauntless Onslaught, Triton Tactics, Hunt the Hunter, Gods Willing, Savage Surge, titan's Strength, or Warriors' Lesson).

    Even if Bestow isn't included in Theros 2 the set will be Enchantment focused as that is too strong of an expectation and was NOT lived up to the first time around for them to just ignore the second.


    I strongly disagree.

    I think you misunderstand.
    Quote from Manite »
    First off, not all Heroic abilities produced +1/+1 counters. That was mainly GW's thing; blue, black, and red leaned towards spell-like effects, as was the case with Artisan of Forms, Agent of the Fates, and Labyrinth Champion. This is because +1/+1 counters were the GW theme, which both Heroic and Monstrosity played with.

    I did not intend to imply that they all did, some do and those cause the listed problems
    Quote from Manite »
    Secondly, Heroic worked wonderfully with Auras, which helped sell the enchantment theme. Not all Auras exist to make creatures bigger. Aqueous Form and Battle Mastery want to go on creatures that gain +1/+1 counters, and the +1/+1 counters produced by Heroic made it easier to cash in the Ordeals.

    That was my point, it worked well with auras which forced them to nerf auras.
    Quote from Manite »
    Bestow served both to justify enchantment creatures and to synergize with Heroic. And since they're enchantments whether or not they're Auras, they play well with enchantments-matter effects like Constellation.

    Yes, creatures that triggered off being targeted by spells did create a demand for multi-target instants and sorceries...which was handled by Strive and which represented well the flavor of the mortals and gods being set against one another. You're complaining here that the designers designed their set around the set's mechanics, which is what they're supposed to do. It's like complaining that Innistrad pushed for more sac outlets because of Morbid. When your set features certain mechanics, you want to build around those mechanics. That's just common sense.

    Strive took away from the space in the set for enchantments...
    Quote from Manite »
    I don't know how you can say "R&D knows this" when Heroic was one of the better-received mechanics of the block overall, certainly a great deal better than Inspired, Tribute, and Strive. Heroic played well and it represented the flavor of heroes well. It was part of an intricate machine, and it served its purpose well.

    Is it possible Heroic could be replaced during our next visit? Certainly, but it won't be because it played poorly or had poor flavor or whatever, it'll be because they have a new angle to tackle and need new mechanics for it. The next hero mechanic could care about Auras and Equipment, like Novice Knight or Champion of the Flame. And stealth Heroic could still appear the way stealth Landfall appeared in our first trip to Theros.[/spoiler]

    R&D know that there is a huge demand for an enchantment 'block' that never happened.
    R&D know that Urza Saga was intended to be that block and turned into the broken artifact block instead.
    R&D know that there was public perception that Theros was going to be that block (they intended enchantments to be a minor theme not a major one) and it really wasn't.
    R&D know that they can have Heroic or Enchantment matters as a primary (because of the various things in my prior post) they can't do both.

    Heroic isn't inherently a bad mechanic or a problem (I do think it is bias towards lower power smaller formats and 1v1 play, so Limited or Standard, which is a strike against it but not a deadly one), but letting players think they are going to get the Enchantment Matters block they have been asking for for literally two decades now and then not delivering it... again... is a problem.

    I did a poor job of conveying that originally and that's my fault. Heroic was a mistake in that block for reasons that aren't directly Heroic's fault.
    Quote from Manite »
    On the subject of Auras and Equipment, now that colored artifacts are a regular thing, I can totally see the next trip to Theros featuring a plethora of colored artifacts, maybe even some enchantment artifacts, that play with Devotion. A good number of those artifacts could easily be equipment, and thus could justify a new hero ability that cares if the creature is enchanted or equipped.
    I would love to see Threshold-1 attached as a thing.

    Theros Dude W
    Creature - Human Soldier
    Theros dude has Vigilance and Double Strike as long as a permanent is attached to it.
    1/1

    Theros Dude W
    Creature - Human Soldier
    As long as Theros dude is enchanted or equipped it has Vigilance and Double Strike.
    1/1

    I like the attached to it wording, but its fairly awkward to actually use so they may go with the 'enchanted or equipped' wording that better matches current templates and likely is less confusing overall.
    Posted in: Baseless Speculation
  • posted a message on Throne of Eldraine speculations
    White has ramped with cards like Knight of the White Orchid
    White has drawn cards with cards like
    Pursuit of Knowledge
    armistice
    Inheritance

    I would expect that the thing he is referring to is either something that white has done but never much and they are letting it free (like counter magic) or something more specific than ramp or card draw while also less noticeable...

    For example ‘with this new set white now has clone effects!’ Would be an accurate but misleading statement talking about return to ravnica...
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Throne of Eldraine speculations
    Curses are big in the source material... and we see a kiss turning a statue to flesh. I doubt enchantments are a white green thing... magic in general is not a hero thing in fairy tails... the fairy godmothers have it and merlin has it and the villains have it... but I don’t see the good guys (white green) doing enough for it to be a theme... I do see sleeping beauty’s enchanted sleep, the beast’s enchanted rose, little mermaid’s silence and ability to walk on land, and many other curses showing up...

    I think the storybook mechanic shows in all colors and isn’t a draft theme... like double faced cards in inistrad... we may get a related draft theme (like werewolves). But you could be right and it goes more like levelers from rise of the eldrazi... but I am curious why you went red green instead of white green?
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Speculation for Return to Theros
    Quote from Manite »
    I could see Devotion, Heroic, and Monstrosity all returning as a result.


    I am going to go out on a bit of a limb and say... I think Heroic was the worst mistake in Theros and the cause of almost all of it's issues.

    Heroic makes creatures grow, reducing the need for auras.
    Heroic increases the value of Auras, forcing design to under power them so they aren't too strong in actual play. (they go in the same decks as Auras and consume significant amounts of the power available to those cards)
    Heroic creates a desire to design cards that target multiple creatures, these are typically instant or sorceries not enchantments, but they are positive effects that target your own creatures and thus occupy the same design space as Auras.

    R&D knows all this and will look for a heroic mechanic that better fits from a flavor standpoint and doesn't have all these downsides.

    I predict bestow will return at a significantly reduced cost and that Heroic will not return.

    There are 14 cards with Totem Armor and 35 with Bestow note. Totem armor is the stronger mechanic in all cases other than 'I have no creatures in play and draw this card' (namely if you have a creature with 3 totem armors vs a creature with 3 bestows, all cards otherwise identical, the totem armor version is stronger). Yet totem armor costs significantly less. Look at Drake Umbra and Nimbus Naiad they cost the same but the Totem Armor version gives an additional +1/+1. Same for Mammoth Umbra and Observant Alseid. Cards like Hyena Umbra have no direct analog, but it would cost at least 2W and likely 3W. I believe that without Heroic in the set that Bestow could be stronger, and that the set could include more auras and Bestow creatures (replacing cards like Coordinated Assault, Cutthroat Maneuver, Dauntless Onslaught, Triton Tactics, Hunt the Hunter, Gods Willing, Savage Surge, titan's Strength, or Warriors' Lesson).

    Even if Bestow isn't included in Theros 2 the set will be Enchantment focused as that is too strong of an expectation and was NOT lived up to the first time around for them to just ignore the second.

    Quote from DJK3654 »
    I agree that Sagas make a lot of sense to see here, especially given MaRo has confirmed they *will* be returning, so that seems reasonably likely. I don't think they'll do both Curses and Sagas, though, and Sagas seem the more likely include.

    Curses seem likely for Throne, and if Theros 2 follows Throne (and thus is in standard with another curse set) it bends these odds... I could see Curses being in... or both, especially if Bestow doesn't make it.
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    I think a likely theme for the Theros return is to touch more upon the mortals vs gods conflict that was ignited in the later part of the original story. They even had a story released a few months after the release of Born of the Gods, at the end of the Theros storyline, where Ajani is rabble rousing about it.

    The story of Theros 2 would have to center on Elspeth, and the mechanical theme has to be Enchantments. But the story could involve a war between mortals and gods.
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    Another possible focus would be the introduction of Theros's equivalent of the Titans as a new enemy. You could even combine with the first idea and have the gods and mortals put aside their differences to face the Titans à la the Wrath of the Titans movie.
    This could also serve for the shape of the story and a good reason for the gods to send Elspeth back to fight, but mechanically it has to be enchantment matters.
    Posted in: Baseless Speculation
  • posted a message on Eldraine Fairy Tales
    Quote from Manite »
    From what we've seen, Golems are generally bulky humanoid automatons, where Constructs tend to be more abstract or smaller in form. Kaladesh being one of the few exceptions, though if you ask me the Gearhulks and other large humanoid automatons really ought to have been Golems. Elementals don't always arise naturally, they're composed of a base elemental force such as earth, fire, wind, or water, and are often conjured by mages. In most fantasy settings Golems might as well be Elementals, being composed chiefly of clay or stone, but in Magic terminology a Golem is basically a humanoid robot built from some manner of solid material while an Elemental is any creature composed almost entirely of elemental energy that either manifests naturally or is deliberately conjured.

    Elementals are conjured, or summoned by mages, they exist and are brought from there to here. Golem are created by Mages, they did not exist and now do.
    Quote from Manite »
    Frosty the Snowman and other such snow-kin should be classed as Elementals. Magical artifacts are used to animate them, yes, but a snowman itself does not feel like an artifact creature to me.

    That’s why I chose frosty, he seems like an elemental but he didn’t exist elsewhere and was summoned, rather a pile of mass was magically animated and given a semblance of life by a magic hat. Frosty himself is a Golem because he was magically animated.
    Quote from Manite »
    By the same token the Gingerbread Man is a being composed of organic material - in this case, gingerbread - brought to life by accident. Calling him an artifact creature feels like a bit of a stretch. I'm personally going with red Elemental, red because it fits the spiciness of gingerbread and because the Gingerbread Man most likely has red abilities such as haste and selfbounce.
    The gingerbread man was similarly created by magic and thus a Golem.

    A construct on the other hand is a robot, a Golem is just a pile of matter, a construct each piece is important and has a function and they work together to create a ‘creature’. The gear hulks are large constructs, the gingerbread man is a small Golem.

    Gears and belts and pistons and such generally indicate a construct, no internal moving parts generally indicates a Golem if created or elemental if naturally occurring.
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Eldraine Fairy Tales
    Quote from Creedmoor »
    I am also curious as to what the Gingerbread Man's type would be. Construct possibly, but usually that's only artifacts, and he's not really an artifact, per say. Elemental could work I suppose...

    Could be funny if he was a "Weird" lol.
    Technically it should be Golem, whenever you take a pile of material and animate it you get a Golem. All the dishes and clocks and candlesticks in Beauty and the Beast are Golem. And I don’t see any problem with the Gingerbread man being an artifact.

    Then again the man difference between Golem and Elemental is that elementals arise naturally and Golem are created... and I don’t think someone intentionally animated the Gingerbread man so you could argue for elemental... but I would go with Golem. (Frosty the Snowman is a Snow Golem because the children’s belief and dreams and the Magic Hat animated him, he didn’t spring into life spontaneously which would have made him a Snow Elemental...)
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Eldraine Fairy Tales
    Quote from 5colors »
    Quote from Melriken »
    Pinocchio would be a construct not a treefolk


    The original story of Pinocchio, he was made from already living wood (no fairy magic brought him to life) so that could be flavored a tree folk.
    I think that would still be a construct... living wall is made from flesh but is still an artifact. Also they will go with the known and recognized story over the original version...
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Eldraine Fairy Tales
    Pinocchio would be a construct not a treefolk, and I don’t see hags being common enough to be an iconic but I would love to be wrong about that. Also hoping for curses and curse tribal...

    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Commander 2019 Reprint Speculation
    Why does the madness deck have to be red? BU madness seems reasonable.

    Many of the red madness cards are either vampires or giant growth effects and given that vampire tribal was a recent Commander deck... I could see a madness mill deck in UB with discard, looting, and windfall effects to help mill and enable madness

    Abandon Reason
    Alchemist's Greeting
    Avacyn's Judgment
    Blast from the Past
    Bloodhall Priest
    Bloodmad Vampire
    Distemper of the Blood
    Falkenrath Gorger
    Fiery Temper
    Incorrigible Youths
    Insatiable Gorgers
    Malevolent Whispers
    Reckless Wurm
    Senseless Rage
    Stensia Masquerade
    Stromkirk Occultist
    Violent Eruption
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Commander 2019 Reprint Speculation
    Quote from Ryperior74 »
    Quote from Melriken »
    The populate deck should be GW or GWU, but as GWU was enchantments I am going GW. Sorry Manite I don’t see them adding red to it. Red populate would be haste and sacrifice at end of turn and while I could see it being a Gruul or Boros or Naya mechanic in a future set, I don’t see them trying to build a deck with it for C19, it’s too different from the mechanic we know and love. It wouldn’t resonate.


    One at a time

    For your populate thing

    No there are red token makers that don’t envole sacrificing/exile after turn



    And ofcoarse the best for one that needs a reprint is Dragon Broodmother

    And there’s more so I’m saying red is fisable for token decks like this
    red copy effects like populate are haste and until end of turn. Normal token creation is different.



    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Commander 2019 Reprint Speculation
    Populate has 13 cards most of which would be reasonable to see reprinted, I would love to also see anointed procession and parallel lives and I would love a fixed doubling season but expect primal vigor.

    I anticipate seeing embalm cards specifically honored Hydra and anointer priest as well as eternalize cards like adorned pouncer.

    I would love a reprint of Rhys but doubt we will get one, maybe he will get a new card though. Tolsimir seems like a reasonable ask and another place to stick a Voja token but the anti-synergy of a legendary token might keep it out.

    Number 1 ask... blade of selves.
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Eldraine Fairy Tales
    Quote from DJK3654 »

    Mermaids, hags and witches have also been seen already.




    Lady of the lake... Excalibur


    Looks like the little mermaid to me... mirror turning her into a human girl...


    Snow White’s evil queen reimagined as a child eating hag/spirit?


    Evil step mother, you can see Cinderella in the background.
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Commander 2019 Reprint Speculation
    The populate deck should be GW or GWU, but as GWU was enchantments I am going GW. Sorry Manite I don’t see them adding red to it. Red populate would be haste and sacrifice at end of turn and while I could see it being a Gruul or Boros or Naya mechanic in a future set, I don’t see them trying to build a deck with it for C19, it’s too different from the mechanic we know and love. It wouldn’t resonate.

    Flashback almost has to be UBR, despite wizards in C17, all those colors are heavy flashback colors that grant flashback and give bonuses for it... I could even see a Kess reprint.

    Madness I concur BR as the most likely, BU is also a possibility (much of the red is vampires or creature pump) and could flavorfully include mill.

    Morph I would splurge as WUBRG, but BGU isn’t a bad guess. WUBRG is the only way to get green and white into two decks without a GWU deck that would repeat last year, so I lean there.
    Posted in: Speculation
  • posted a message on Mothership Spoilers 6/18 - New Kaalia and Golos plus image gallery cards
    Quote from Xcric »
    hate the very plastic art of this new kaalia

    ...also feel her ability is incredibly mediocre everywhere except in old kaalia
    Seems reasonable in a Reaper King changeling deck... just an example.

    https://deckstats.net/decks/115910/1092178-tribal-soup/en
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Commander 2019 Theme Speculation
    What about a “what if” set with the 4 other elder dragon legends as planeswalker commanders? Now that Bolas is finished, give the other 4 some love.
    They aren't planeswalkers, and core just had new versions of them to use as legendary commanders.
    Posted in: Speculation
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