2019 Holiday Exchange!
 
A New and Exciting Beginning
 
The End of an Era
  • posted a message on WOTC Confirmed we will give the TWD cards in MTG universe version of cards on the list
    What I'm most curious about is whether they will issue errata for the Magic TWD cards for Walker Tokens being the same as Zombie tokens,changing the functionality of Daryl and to a lesser extent Negan, Lucielle and Michonne or if they will come up with a "Wasp Token" scenario like with The Hive where the Walkers (or likely a Magic variant that is treated the same as Walkers for copyright reasons) are "named Zombie tokens."

    your question is already answered, Walkers are 2/2 black zombies named walker.
    From the current comp rules:
    Quote from Rules »
    111.10. Some effects instruct a player to create a predefined token. These effects use the definition
    below to determine the characteristics the token is created with. The effect that creates a predefined
    token may also modify or add to the predefined characteristics.
    111.10a A Treasure token is a colorless Treasure artifact token with “{T}, Sacrifice this artifact:
    Add one mana of any color.”
    111.10b A Food token is a colorless Food artifact token with “{2}, {T}, Sacrifice this artifact: You
    gain 3 life.”
    111.10c A Gold token is a colorless Gold artifact token with “Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana
    of any color.”
    111.10d A Walker token is a 2/2 black Zombie creature token named Walker.
    111.10e A Shard token is a colorless Shard enchantment token with “{2}, Sacrifice this
    enchantment: Scry 1, then draw a card.”
    111.10f A Clue token is a colorless Clue artifact token with “{2}, Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a
    card.”
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on MaRo's Midnight Hunt Teaser
    Quote from Melkor »
    I was just pointing out why it wasn't Bolt
    now I want it to be Chain Lightning... just so it was basically bolt...



    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on MaRo's Midnight Hunt Teaser
    • A popular tournament card in multiple formats gets reprinted with its fifth piece of art.


    Ancestral Recall is a popular tournament card with 4 illustrations!!!
    (2018 Europ Vintage Champion, 2013 Vintage Championship winner, 2005 Vintage Championship winner, and the classic one...)

    Seriously though...

    https://scryfall.com/search?q=illustrations=4
    as much as I want it to be Doubling Season...

    Ancient Grudge
    Compulsive Research
    Faithless Looting
    harrow
    holy day
    mortify
    rest in peace
    Scavenging Ooze
    Sign in blood
    Terror
    Village Rites

    all seem more likely
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on MaRo's Midnight Hunt Teaser
    • A popular tournament card in multiple formats gets reprinted with its fifth piece of art.


    Lightning Bolt has 10 pieces of art already

    Counterspell has 12 pieces of art already

    Fatal Push Good... has 4 pieces of art

    Path to Exile has 6 pieces of art already

    Ancient Stirrings only has 1 piece of art


    See notes in green above... also worth mentioning... Revolt is an ability word which is more like reminder text, not a keyword and not part of the rules text... cards can be printed with or without ability words.

    Phosphorescent Feast Phosphorescent Feast
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Planechase Commander? Hint from WotC Survey
    Dude I said it. Since 2012 (9 years of playing) multiple playgroups in all these years, both LGS, Comic-cons and Kitchen Table, all enjoying exactly like me. Even in this same thread you have multiple evidence of people enjoying the format besides me.

    You have the cognitive bias that simply because you or your friend don't like something or is simply not for you, then all the world have your same feelings about that thing. Get rid of that illusion.


    I am sorry, but you are the one with the cognitive bias. I understand that there is a group that really truly enjoys Planechase. I have no doubt that you have played more games of it then I have, but I have played a lot of games of it. I have talked to different people that have played Planechase over the years, some want to play and can't find a group, some used to enjoy it and grew out of it, others tried it, didn't like it and quit. I understand what about it is appealing to different groups of players and how long each group plays it for. I have tried to fix it for my group and spent a lot of time figuring out exactly what about it doesn't work and what about it does. There was a time I was looking forward to a new set of planes and hoping it became a semi-regular thing. I then found out that the new set made the game worse not better and I spent a lot more time figuring out why and talking with a lot more people...

    If Planechase was half as popular as you think it is... they would have done PC3 by now. 2009 for the original release, 2012 for the second set... Archenemy came out in 2010 and Nicol Bolas came out in 2017... and that is the best chance for another Planechase... the 'boardgame' slot (game night, Archenemy Nicol Bolas, and Explorers of Ixalan) and even then likely only when the year's story is centered on planeswalking... so if the story takes a turn in the direction of Sliders... look for the boardgame slot that year to be a Planechase set.

    I am not trying to confront you or convince you, or prove anything, or change the chances of WotC doing anything. I am trying to explain why they haven't done anything up to this point and help set expectations for people hoping for something. The fact that this thread has such low participation shows that Planechase isn't popular... most of the board members are ignoring this thread because it isn't something they care about. I am glad you enjoy planechase, I think that's great. I think you should continue to play it.

    I play Horde (The original Theros Challenger decks, face the hydra for example) and my current play group really enjoys it. I have shared it with other groups and most of them have enjoyed it a lot. I understand it isn't for everyone and I understand the types of players that like it and the types that don't. I am sad there isn't a larger community online that plays it and builds Horde decks... but I have a relatively clear understanding of the format and the players who do and don't like it. I believe a have a similar understanding of Planechase, and I believe the fact that WotC hasn't printed more Challenger decks and hasn't printed more Planechase decks... supports my understanding of the formats.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Planechase Commander? Hint from WotC Survey
    I did a quick search earlier and didn’t find any of the comments I remember, and none of them were particularly strong. I had lots of conversations in the aftermath of PC2 with a variety of people and came to conclusions… they aren’t facts, they are well reasoned opinions from as diverse Data as I can get, but not hard numbers.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Planechase Commander? Hint from WotC Survey
    Quote from PharesZoran »
    Quote from Melriken »
    I don't conduct market research, and WotC doesn't publish theirs... but Mark Rosewater has made comments in the past about planechase's sales and such... a quick search isn't showing anything glaring at the moment but if it was popular and lasting then the answer here:
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/183033726313/ifwhen-more-planechase
    wouldn't be 'minor'...
    If it was as wildly unpopular as you're saying, then wouldn't the answer be "if" rather than "when"?
    It wasn't wildly unpopular... People really liked the idea, they wanted it to be good... but it wasn't so they didn't keep playing it long term.

    Its a WHEN because people WANT it... just like the decided that despite Tribal being BAD, people still played it so they decided to make a set based on tribal and it was super popular... so Planechase is a WHEN, because they understand there is a desire for a good Planechase... but it is a minor when because PC2 was a disappointment due to people getting tired of PC1 before it came out.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Planechase Commander? Hint from WotC Survey
    I referred to these planes originally:
    --Grove of the Dreampods flips out an eldrazi titan or something similar (Blightsteel?) ((As I mentioned originally... happened on the first turn of play... OG Emrakul against a bunch of players with 1 land each...))
    --Hedron Fields of Agadeem you and I mentioned this one...
    --Quicksilver Sea see Grove of the Dreampods above
    --The Aether Flues see Grove of the Dreampods above
    --The Maelstrom see Grove of the Dreampods above



    Grove of Dreampods can be pretty broken sure, but if nobody play enough removals in your playgroup, the fault is bad deckbuild, not the planes. Having Grove as first plane is extremely unlickely (of course, granting we're talking about the "Shared Planechase deck" mode with all planes and phenomena currently available) and revealing a blight colossus is even more unlikely (unless you are a combo deck that specifically play only that creature card in your deck) and even then, cards like Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Unsommon, On Thin Ice, Chained to the Rocks or such are available since turn 1 of game. But really, seeing a Blight Colossus turn 1 because of a turn 1 Dreampod and casually you are the first player starting too, its just so unlikely it's not even worth to even mention solutions really.

    The Maelstrom is already a different case, because it does easily whiffs lots of time (revealing instant or sorceries) or simply not relevent enough stuff (like lands, mana rocks and such)

    The Aether Flues is like Dreampods but you need creatures in play so it's unlikely it will ever do something even turn 1 of game. (granted we're talking EDH; which is the only format where planechase make sense to me)

    Also, if you mention stuff like Quicksilver Sea and Eldrazi Field, it really proves that you have no idea of what are you actually talking about and that you definitely did not play enough time the format. First of all, to cast free with Quicksilver you actually need to do the Chaos symbol with the planar dice and you think is that easy to pull of that symbol with only 1/6 chance to do it, only 1-2 attempts at turn (if we're talking early game as you say) and with another chance to just change the plane altogether? Really, dude? And don't get me started with the eldrazi plane. Not only you must be lucky enough to have turn 1, not only you must be lucky enough that the other players of the pods meanwhile doesn't leave the plane before you got your chance to even make an eldrazi, not only if you actually manage to make the 1/6 chance to do the eldrazi it won't even able to nothing while we're in the plane, not only your eldrazi must be alive the times somebody rolls the "travel the planes" symbol...do I have to continue just to show how preposterous and specious are your arguments, and everything you fear of, its simply not likely to happen at all practically?


    I mean, did you had unlucky games with Planes? Cool, it happens, I have unlucky and *****ty games with regular magic of all formats all the time. But you can't really blame the planes themselves only because of your bad luck or anything, because then you find people like me, that play this format for 10 years consecutively with any type of playgroups, and, you know, simply raise an eyebrow every time I see this type of complaining (just to be clear : It's perfectly legit to say "I dont like planechase / it's not for me / I don't like random and unpredictable splashy effects in a game". What is NOT legit is saying instead "this format is objectively unplayable and broken for everybody just because I had a bad experience with it.", which is pretty much what all people disliking the format are saying in this thread)


    It isn't that all games with Planechase are bad... its that some of them are TERRIBLE, and others are just typical Magic games... It rarely adds to the experience and sometimes CRUSHES it.

    I played a LOT of planechase, both before and after Planechase2, originally I was super excited, but over time we realized it wasn't actually adding anything to the games and the games we talked about were either complaints or games where the planes really didn't do anything. So we stopped using them. At that point most of our games were 5-8 people playing 60 card kitchen table decks (mostly modern decks, but officially legacy decks... we typically didn't play dual lands or other legacy cards (sol ring, etc) but if you wanted to play something that was fun you could.). I have heard good things about formats that use Planechase cards but do something different with them (build a map and let you chose which direction you planeswalk when you do so you can maybe get back to that crazy plane and try again) but that just shows that people like the idea of planechase more then the actuality of planechase...
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Planechase Commander? Hint from WotC Survey
    Quote from PharesZoran »
    Quote from Melriken »


    Most people dislike it once the novelty wears off because it steals the game or spoils their win (spike), or because it makes everything else not matter (many Timmies and most Johnnies).


    Is this a known fact? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious if there's been any statement from WotC that says that. This is only my experience, but the majority of people who played at my LGS were big fans of planechase with those who disliked it strongly disliking it. So I'm wondering whether or not there's been any official statement to that effect.
    Just comments like the one above about it being a minor when on Planechase 3... I seem to remember one when planechase 2 came out and people were asking about Archenemy 2 that talked about trying to make products for different people and how archenemy and planechase apealed to a similar number of people, but archenemy required one player get the new cards and planechase encouraged more to get them so while both products were nitch planechase sold a little better... and other comments after planechase 2 that indicated a planechase 3 wasn't going to come out soon (which implies sales for PC2 were lower then expected... which implies that PC1 had burned a few people who were initially excited by it)
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Planechase Commander? Hint from WotC Survey
    Quote from Dontrike »
    Quote from Melriken »


    Strawman detected? The complaint is either that the Planes don't matter, or nothing but the planes matter... and it isn't one specific plane that is the problem.

    No, your complaint was one of only two results, a poor plane where you think they do nothing (not sure why you think they all have to do something bombastic) or the eldrazi turn 1. I pointed out how unlikely your worst case scenario comes to pass. In no way is it a strawman to point out the flaw in your statement. You even stated most of the time those things barely happen, therefore destroying your own point about it being just nothing or too much.

    Go look at my post, and at your quote... 'Or a legendary eldrazi or similar from their deck'.

    I said one of two things happens... the planes don't matter, or nothing but the planes matter... ignoring half of category two and then talking about how many games fall into the part of category two you didn't ignore isn't relevant. you were misrepresenting my argument and then attacking that misrepresentation...

    Planechase isn't a good product because either the planes don't matter, or they are the only thing that does. Either there is no gain because they didn't matter or there is a loss because they invalidated the rest of the game.

    If the times where nothing but the Planes matters are rare... and they are... it doesn't invalidate anything... Planechase is a net negative due to the planes either not mattering or nothing but the planes mattering. It needs a middle ground where the planes matter but don't invalidate the rest of the game. Admittedly I have experienced such games of Planechase, but in the average night of 3 or so games of planechase zero games were improved by Planechase and 1 game was ruined for at least 1 person... we stopped playing with it, and I have heard lots of stories about similar in other groups.
    Quote from Dontrike »
    Different players play magic for different reasons... some because they want to do something cool (timmy), some because they want to make something happen (Johnny), some because they want to win (spike)... Planechase is HORRIBLE for Johnny and Spike, and a significant section of Timmy...

    Wait....why would Johnny hate this? Per your definition they are making something happen. Same with Spike, if they're winning why would they hate it?

    Johnnies want to build a deck that will make a specific thing they find interesting or entertaining happen... often this is a combo, but it isn't always. Planechase rarely HELPS them do what they want, usually it prevents it.
    Spikes want to feel that they won, that they were victorious. They want to feel smarter and better at the game then the people they are playing against. Different spikes have different thresholds, but they need to view their opponents as 'worthy' and they need to view the win as 'earned'. They wouldn't derive as much enjoyment from playing against a group of preschoolers who struggled to figure out which cards they could play, and they don't derive as much enjoyment when an opponent plays a card that says 'Flip a coin, heads you win, tails you lose' and then flips tails... Similarly when Planechase gives them a giant monster on turn 1 and they ride it to victory they don't enjoy it because the victory is hollow.
    Quote from Dontrike »
    Most people dislike it once the novelty wears off because it steals the game or spoils their win (spike), or because it makes everything else not matter (many Timmies and most Johnnies).

    I'm sure you have a source for how many people dislike a thing to back up your "facts."
    I don't conduct market research, and WotC doesn't publish theirs... but Mark Rosewater has made comments in the past about planechase's sales and such... a quick search isn't showing anything glaring at the moment but if it was popular and lasting then the answer here:
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/183033726313/ifwhen-more-planechase
    wouldn't be 'minor'... Planechase sells a bit, but the second set didn't sell as well as they hoped (and it had new cards) and the public isn't asking for more that loudly...

    When it first came out is was new and exciting and people flocked to it... it quickly died down and became harder to get people to play it or find people playing it, that is my experience at multiple stores and from talking to many people, and from reading between the lines of what WotC does and says about it.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Planechase Commander? Hint from WotC Survey
    Quote from Dontrike »
    Quote from Melriken »
    ]Either the plane doesn't really mater at all and it was all a waste of time/mana or... someone gets a 7/7 annihilate 1 on turn 1 (or a legendary eldrazi or similar from their deck) and kirbstomps the table...

    Hyperbole detected. So you played Planechase enough where you only kept seeing only that one specific plane (Hedron Fields of Agadeem), among 78 of them (a 1.28% chance)


    Strawman detected? The complaint is either that the Planes don't matter, or nothing but the planes matter... and it isn't one specific plane that is the problem.

    I referred to these planes originally:
    --Grove of the Dreampods flips out an eldrazi titan or something similar (Blightsteel?) ((As I mentioned originally... happened on the first turn of play... OG Emrakul against a bunch of players with 1 land each...))
    --Hedron Fields of Agadeem you and I mentioned this one...
    --Quicksilver Sea see Grove of the Dreampods above
    --The Aether Flues see Grove of the Dreampods above
    --The Maelstrom see Grove of the Dreampods above

    I have also had bad games due to one or more of the below:
    --Eloren Wilds ramp someone from 4 to 8 mana, drop a bomb and then walk off... or lock someone out of playing anything, who gets unlucky and doesn't manage to walk off (Yes I have seen player A walk with their last roll and land on Eloren Wilds, the next player drop a bomb and then chaos a third player who then spends all their mana rolling, chaos locks the first two players and doesn't manage to get off... not a great game.
    --Feeding Grounds Chaos' twice on a card like Scornful Egotist (not actually that one, but something similar that costs more than you pay for) and then go to town...
    --Horizon Boughs chaos triggers twice on one player and the next player 'walks off it.
    --Isle of Vesuva makes a permanent copy of something that came out on Sneak Attack or similar
    --Jund gives a random creature 10+ +1/+1 counters
    --Krosa turns a token deck into a huge threat, or multiple chaos rolls get someone way ahead super early (turn 1 10 mana?)
    --Naya WTF? seriously?
    --Orzhova maybe combined with one of the mill planes...
    --Sanctum of Serra No Comment
    --Shiv with an early chaos or two

    so 5 not 1... and I readily agree... MOST games of Planechase the planes don't matter.

    Different players play magic for different reasons... some because they want to do something cool (timmy), some because they want to make something happen (Johnny), some because they want to win (spike)... Planechase is HORRIBLE for Johnny and Spike, and a significant section of Timmy...

    You may be in the small subsection of Timmy who wants to see something cool and doesn't care much how or why it happens... great, planechase is for you.

    Most people dislike it once the novelty wears off because it steals the game or spoils their win (spike), or because it makes everything else not matter (many Timmies and most Johnnies).

    Planechase is like playing Fluxx, it will be crazy and some of it is fun... but in my experience (and the majority of my play group, though my group contains people like you who thrive on the chaos and don't much care that it derails the games) I would rather play a chaotic game like Fluxx for that and play Magic for the deeper gameplay it provides.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Planechase Commander? Hint from WotC Survey
    Quote from Cranky »
    Please god no, Planechase is a nightmare and once the novelty wears off everyone who has ever tried it grows to hate it. Deckbuilding and skill are completely negated and it becomes all about who rolls better and which random plane helps who the most. I collected every deck to acquired every plane as they were released, including promos, and I can say unequivocally that there hasn't been a worse variant format to date.
    Agreed...

    games fall into one of two catagories... Either the plane doesn't really mater at all and it was all a waste of time/mana or... someone gets a 7/7 annihilate 1 on turn 1 (or a legendary eldrazi or similar from their deck) and kirbstomps the table... or in a 'good' case the turn order gets reversed just before the player to go last gets their turn on the second or third time around the table... and has no fun at all...

    or something goes really wrong and everyone loses there hand or something super early (before some players even get a turn).

    All of the worst games of magic I have played were Planechase games...

    I would rather see Archenemy or Horde come back, or something new.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on MaRo's AFR Teaser
    Quote from Flamebuster »
    Surprised there weren't any other hints at possible mechanics in the set. I'm hoping for Level Up. Like, how can it NOT be? It's a perfect flavour win for an RPG-focused set.

    'buster
    IIRC this is taking the slot of the core set, so it was light on mechanical complexity... and Level Up is considered HIGH on mechanical complexity... I think that was mentioned as not in specifically but I can't remember for sure.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on MaRo's AFR Teaser
    So we get...
    • a new enchantment subtype (currently there are Auras, Cartouches, Curses, Runes, Shards ([[Niko Aris]]), Sagas, and Shrines) so this would have been a much bigger announcement a few years ago before... Runes, Cartouches, and Shards... also Dungeons was already known...
    • a card that gives -11/-11... tragic slip makes this meh
    • a creature with a death trigger that makes an equipment token... Harvest Hand
    • a legendary creature that makes a legendary hamster creature token... so Hamster is a new creature type... but there are 13 cards that create legendary tokens, (two of which are legendary lands, one a legendary enchantment, one a legendary artifat, two legendary planeswalkers, and the other 7 are legendary creatures) so this is really nothing new (Kari Zev, Skyship Raider) (yes this is Minsc and boo... cool... not teaser worthy stuff...
    • something only seen previously in Un-Sets... the cheese stands alone and barren Glory... this happens all the time.
    • an artifact that's a musical instrument that creates harmony counters... I mean there were two whole cycles of verse counter enchantments in Urza's Saga... not exactly new territory ((https://scryfall.com/search?q=set:usg t:enchantment o:verse&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name))
    • a card that can keep your opponent from winning the game... just like Platinum Angel
    • an ability that cares about attacking with a certain amount of power of creatures... so a cross between Mosswort Bidge and Windbrisk Heights... I guess that might count as new... but not noteworthy
    • cards that let you decide where the story goes... like Outpost Siege
    • a card that creates a legendary creature token named Vecna... see legendary creature token comment above... also note that Cackling Counterpart and a host of other cards can make a legendary creature token named ((insert the name of a legendary creature from Magic))
    • “Exchange your hand and library” Harness Infinity
    • “Skeletons, Vampires and Zombies” undead slayer Death Baron
    • “Spend this mana only to cast Dragon spells or activate abilities of Dragons.” Crucible of the spirit dragon
    • “for each different mana value among nonland cards in your graveyard.” Agadeem's Awakening Seasons past
    • “Then if you have fewer than three cards in hand, draw cards equal to the difference.” Damia, sage of stone skull raid
    • “Whenever you cast a creature spell that doesn’t share a creature type with a creature you control or a creature card in your graveyard,” Guardian Project
    • “You may cast [THIS CREATURE’S NAME] from your graveyard if a creature not named [THIS CREATURE’S NAME] died this turn.” Nether Traitor
    • “When its power become 20 this way,” Figure of Destiny Primordial Hydra

    Am I the only one extremely Meh about this?
    Judging from everyone else talking about the type lines only... I guess not.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [STX] DFC Legendary creatures, aka "Dean's": how to get both sides in play
    Identity Thief is a great way to do it too...

    Play a Dean on the back side, attack with Identity Thief (which turns into a copy of the back side). At the beginning of the end step the Dean will come back into play on its front side and you will control both sides... (the identity thief will shortly revert to an identity thief but you didn't specify how long you wanted to control both sides)

    Sublime Epiphany or Supplant form can do it too...
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
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