Nice changes, I'm excited to hear how Chalice of the Void pans out for you. Along with the uses you've mentioned, it seems like really great tech against Vandalblast and Cyclonic Rift as well.
The rationale for many of these is somewhat interconnected. Bob is for sure better and more consistent CA than the "virtual CA" of Shadows of the Past, but I wanted a little smaller curve to make him work without hurting me too much in the long run (if the game even gets to the long run). So I took out the CMC6 Beseech the Queen and replaced it with CMC2 Shred Memory, doubly serving as grave hate (which I needed more of) and tutor, since 9/10 times the thing we're searching for with Beseech is transmutable by Shred anyway (Bitterblossom or Reassembling Skeleton to feed braids; Null Rod, Torpor Orb, Chains of Mephistopheles, Winter Orb, etc. as deck hosers; and so forth...at absolute worst can always grab Demonic Tutor if you really badly need something not cmc2, but I can't imagine that ever being relevant). I also took out the CMC4 Magus of the Abyss, who as I mentioned above was usually getting sacced to himself next turn anyway like a glorified Fleshbag Marauder (he's not a bad creature on his own, but when Braids is in the command zone he loses a lot of appeal) and replaced it with Liliana, Heretical Healer, who has all highly relevant abilities if she can be flipped. I'm still not entirely certain just how consistently she can be flipped, so I'll be testing that out, but as Prid3 said a long time ago in an above post at worst we can always sac Braids to herself for the flip, though granted that means pitching Braids to the GY instead of the CZ.
The other changes are more minor. Drownyard Temple is a slightly worse than Dakmoor Salvage #2 in that it's a one-card land-based solution to feeding Braids if necessary, though it only taps for colorless. Also I never really ended up needing Thought Vessel's "no max hand size" ability, it's only relevant with Necropotence, so I swapped it for Prismatic Lens which has a slightly more useful secondary ability.
That's sound reasoning for the changes and it does good things to the average cmc. Drownyard Temple looks pretty cool, I'll have to try it myself.
It's a good list. There's many different Sidisi variants out there, most I've seen are more reanimator/combo than stax to take advantage of recurring sidisi for additional tutors. Also, I've been saying for a long time what you guys discussed in that thread, which was that the banning of Braids in the 99 was a real blow to Pox-type stax in EDH (actually I've been saying that from the day the "banned as commander" list was abolished), and I think it's only matter of time considering recent power creep that she becomes unbanned. Kokusho was seen as overly oppressive back then also and he's since been unbanned. At this point people are afraid of her just by name, she's been on the banlist for so long a lot of people can't (or don't want to) imagine what a Braids deck even looks like. And that's part of the reason I maintain this thread, I think more exposure to Braids is a good thing, so people can see that she's not nearly the unrivaled terror she used to be next to Derevi, Empyreal Tactician and other power-creeps.
Braids in the command zone really does make a big difference in card selection. Magus of the Abyss for me is meh because I have a superior alternative in the CZ, since you guys don't it's a much more viable pick for you. For me reanimation effects like your Reanimate or Xiahou only dilute Braids, for you every reanimation is another Demonic Tutor with Sidisi in the grave. Your curve, too, is overall a little bigger, so you probably generate more mana-per-game than I do and you can afford to play things like Bubbling Muck and Death Cloud, and you'll likely have more lands out than I do at any given time so you can make better use of Beseech the Queen.
Thank you, it's been frustrating learning how to sequence the effects properly, but that table scoop is just oh so rewarding. I am on the lockdown strategy, I actually like to think of this project as preparation for Braids' unbanning. Having access to Smokestack in the command zone is probably the difference that Mono Black needs to gain some competitive ground, as Griiver suggests. That was sort of my idea behind using Sidisi, but I'm finding Smokestack itself is far too frail rush it onto the battlefield on turn 2-3 without disrupting the board. Working to lock down the board with Contamination and Null Rod in the early stages of the game has been really making a difference for me. Pox and Death Cloud see heavy use in my list as pseudo-redundancy for the Smokestack/Braids effect and for the degree of symmetric disruption they offer. The inclusion of multiple ritual effects allows me to have the mana needed to make Death Cloud worthwhile, even with few lands and Null Rod in play. Magus of the Abyss is definitely not as strong as I'd like it to be, but I currently don't own The Abyss and using Anowon, the Ruin Sage doesn't seem like the proper substitute. His combat stats have been decent for times I have to resort to beat down however.
That said I still have some questions. How's Mana Web work for you? Don't people just tap all their lands in response to the trigger? It won't stop people from playing "draw-go" against you. My go-to solution for control players has always been Defense Grid, it does the same job of forcing everyone to play on their own turn while also screwing over "free" spells because of the tax mechanic (for example, your mana web won't do anything if someone counters you with Force of Will, but my defense grid will say "nope, pay 3 or go home"). And land-light rock-heavy decks ignore the web almost completely.
Mana Web is something I'm currently testing out, but all your points have also been in my mind regarding its inclusion. I really wanted something that offered pseudo-redundancy for Tangle Wire more than a means to stop control, for which Defense Grid is the way to go. I was previously using Orb of Dreams for the same job, which I think I liked better because it had more impact, making it difficult to accumulate mana.
How about Infernal Darkness? How long can you sustain it? Once again you seem to be running a bigger-mana, bigger-curve build than mine, so I wouldn't be surprised if it works better for you than I'd imagine it working for me.
Infernal Darkness was my selection for a stand-in while I saved up for Nether Void. I might play both anyway because having a redundant Contamination has been pretty favorable so far, but yeah.. I only try to sustain it for 3-4 turns at most. Like Griiver says, often that buys enough time to drop more lock pieces/get value from Liliana. I do agree it would probably get the axe if Braids was in the CZ. Do you think Lodestone Golem would make for a better substitute?
I like your Ophiomancer by the way, I didn't even know that card existed. Learn something new every day! I might consider testing it against Sengir Autocrat, he's kinda like Breeding Pit you know (which I eventually cut a while back), old school 2009 pre-ban braids flavor, but maybe he's been eclipsed by now.
I love him and Skullclamp does too. Sengir Autocrat isn't necessarily bad, but Ophiomancer can feed the Contamination lock a little better I think. A Deathtouch blocker every turn is real cute, too.
Anyway, I'm glad to know my braids list is still inspiring people, even though as of yet she remains banned. As far as I'm concerned, any discussion about Braids or Braids-derivatives like your Sidisi, whether here on mtgs or on the competitive edh subreddit or elsewhere, is a discussion worth having--because people will never seriously start reconsidering Braids' position on the banlist in 2016 if they don't know what a Braids deck would actually look like in 2016 compared to other top commanders.
Yeah man, thanks for helping to keep the dream alive. Mono Black Pox offers some much needed flavor in the cEDH meta.
No worries, thank you just the same. I've since cut Possessed Portal from my list because yeah, it's just way too clunky for anything that isn't Arcum or Daretti. Options are limited without Braids, though.
Chalice of the Void is a really solid idea, it could definitely do some serious work in competitive metas. What do you think about Cursed Totem? It wouldn't affect anything in your list and shuts off some pretty relevant abilities. Arcum and Yisan for instance.
I agree with what your observations about Gate to Phyrexia and Grave Pact in that it's not always creatures fueling the engine. At that same rate, Dark Confidant seems more reliable than Shadows of the Past. Shadows is a really neat card though, how is it doing for you?
Desolation has been awkward so far because I'm usually the only one casting spells through the lock. It might be more effective with Braids leading the deck and I may just be playing it wrong. The fact that it doesn't affect the high output lands is very real however. I'm curious to hear what your experience with it will be.
I've drawn similar conclusions regarding Withering Boon, just kind of a pet card for me because my first EDH deck was Phage lol. You're right though, there are far more efficient solutions to the problem W. Boon tries to amend.
Thanks again, TrueNub. If you ever have the time, would you mind checking out my list? The initial idea was heavily inspired by your Braids.
Hey ImNotLuke, thanks for asking. Pre-Ad Nauseam, it's not that great, but post-Ad Naus it provides a much needed mana boost to help with the colored spells. I haven't playtested this list very much, but the redundancy in 'ritual' type effects seem really important since it tries to go off in the first few turns, operating on little to no lands. I also can see a situation where sac'ing Phage to Culling the Weak for the Endless Whispers trigger could be brilliant lol.
Totally true. In this version of the deck, I've included Unstable Obelisk with the same idea in mind. I also really like Brittle Effigy as a maybe for the list.
Well, you bring up a fine point. Honestly, I haven't really been able to playtest Ad Nauseam Combo Phage that much as of recently, but it's been difficult to kill the entire pod, even off a turn 3 Phage. I can usually take out one or two people before Phage is dealt with, and so I wanted to add more silver bullet and interactive cards to see if it helps get me all the way around the table(god damn you Humility). I also kind of wanted to try the list with a backup plan in case Ad Naus gets Praetor's Grasp'd before I can tutor it out. It's only happened once so far, but that was by and far the saddest game it's been through. I'm even thinking of putting a Grasp in the list myself, since it can fetch someone else's tutor if it's not neutering their deck.
Hah! Thanks for sharing, that's gonna be hard to top as far as wins go. Imp's Mischief is one of those cards that I pretty much have to play in a deck that has any black.
Here's an update to the decklist. It's based on Gaka's old list for Griselbrand Storm and is less reliant on Ad Nauseam. It's less consistent than before, but it's a little more interesting this way I think.
Apart from Ad Nauseam, we also have Necroptence, and the Divining Top + Basalt + Rings combo. Insidious Dreams is an all star in this new list, allowing the assembly of numerous combinations of cards to Scroll Rack into if we whiff on Ad Naus. I'd like to find room for Krark Clan Ironworks, Endless Whispers and maybe more silver bullet type cards, but frankly I'm not sure that kind of interaction is necessary. Things like Black Sun's Zenith are mostly irrelevant and kind of unwelcomed once Phage resolves. I can't say enough good things about Winter Orb, since this particular list can play through it pretty well. What do you guys think of it so far?
This deck is beautiful, it's great that you're still putting work into the list. My group won't allow Braids, so I run Sidisi, Undead Vizier with a similar build. I lack the expensive black enchantments(I won't proxy a card unless they're in the mail), and make up for the lack of Braids with Possessed Portal to force concession, despite the high cmc. How do you feel about Desolation and Gate to Phyrexia? Have you found Magus of the Abyss to be effective? So far I've really liked Pawn of Ulamog for extra mana/tokens, what do you think?
Have you thought about using Withering Boon as single-target removal? It's really helped against turn 3 Zur/Narset and can even stop things like Acidic Slime/Reclamation Sage. I'm not sure how sensitive your list would be to artifact hate because Braids, but in any case W. Boon seems like it could be at least as efficient as Innocent Blood. I agree that Leyline of the Void is a bit clunky, albeit powerful. Nihil Spellbomb might be a good option for gravehate and cantrips like the Relic. Shred Memory could be a possibility as well, with the transmute hitting a relevant cmc.
Thanks for the suggestions, Guild McCommunist. Cabal Conditioning is one of my favorite cards, alas it is too high of a cmc to be useful in my meta. Similar reasoning for Diabolic Revelation, despite the power level of that particular tutor. My list is less reliant on Coffers, but I've been thinking about adding some infinite mana engines. I really like Damnable Pact and might find space for it one day.
Chainer is such a beast, definitely the superior general in terms of value, versatility, and Stax synergy. I had thought about running things like Claws of Gix as a means to resolve the issue with ETB creatures vs Torpor Orb, but rather than treat T. Orb like a one-shot effect, I've adopted it into my disruption suite. The format is filled with creatures/strategies that are absolutely hosed by Torpor Orb if they can't remove it fast enough. I feel like this is the direction the Phage list needs to go in order to be more viable. Sundial for me has been the worst in practice because you're forced to pass with Phage potentially unprotected, giving plenty of time for your opponents to respond before it's your turn again. That isn't to say it isn't an amazing card with potential for serious abuse, but in this particular list I think we could put the slot to better use. I'm not fully convinced on taking it out yet though.
PatrickOnTheGo, that's rough to hear man. Honestly my night's are usually like that as well. Victories are so seldom, yet so sweet. My group would probably, depending on the board state, scoop to a well timed Armageddon/Cataclysm and then be better about playing around/responding to it in the next game. Not really hating that player out, just making sure they don't win the same way twice. I have a fair amount of rocks if we do play it out, and now everyone's attention focused on the Armageddon caster. It is very difficult to recover from this state however. I'm not really sure there are many decks that would are able to quite frankly lol. Kaalia is a high tier commander afterall. Rocks aren't necessarily the answer either - check Vandalblast. Something I learned from playing Legacy Pox is holding lands in hand. Skipping a few land drops is well worth it if you know what's coming. Playing cheap removal is a good way to stop Kaalia from reaching the combat phase as well. There's always Praetor's Grasp and Sadistic Sacrament to pull the problem cards from the deck. Redundant copies are a thing though, so they might not be the most effective. Resolving a battle-ready Phage has been a fair means of removing a problem, that is removing the player, putting you in an exceptional position in regards to politics. My list is high in evasion effects in order to minimize whiffing a Phage cast. Unfortunately if that succeeds, you are now the primary threat. Good luck on your gaming, let us know what you come up with. Feel free to share your list if you like.
I only played one game with my Ad Nauseam Phage last night. Some how I got the feel bads for casting Ad Naus during the endstep of Turn 2, resolving a battle ready Phage and Winter Orb on Turn 3. That's an auto-scoop pretty much. Winter Orb is disgusting, it feels way better than 'Exsanguinate the table,' although I'm not sure what the lesser of two evils are haha. Phage gets all the special treatment because I'm only committed to two decks at the moment, the other one is pretty well tuned. Thanks a bunch guys. I'll leave you guys with the Ad Nauseam Combo list. It's more or less like Rishana's, with a couple of tweaks because I lack the high-end tutors. Feel free to ask about it.
Thanks for your input guys, it's great to see that people are so enthusiastic about running Phage as their commander. While designing this deck has been frustrating at times, the experiences at the game tables have been very rewarding. One of the guys in my group runs a Lord of Tresserhorn list that includes his own Endless Whispers tech, leading to some pretty interesting(and lengthy!) games lol.
PatrickOnTheGO, Ad Nauseam in the original list was found to be as you said, clunky. However it was, and is in my opinion, the best and fastest way to gather all the pieces needed to successfully send Phage into battle. Myojin was omitted from the original list to maximize the output of Ad Nauseam, but in the end it seems that Ad Nauseam is at it's best in a dedicated combo deck. I think the other problem was that the original list had difficulty maintaining board presence if Phage was killed. I loved the risk factor of it all, but Ad Naus left us in a position that drastically shortened our life expectancy. Most, if not all the resources were also spent gathering the pieces to get this point, leaving us horribly vulnerable. The speed of the original list was probably enough to support Ad Naus in more casual tables and 1v1, but my newest group plays rather competitively, demanding a reevaluation of the strategy. It had occurred to me then that Prison/Stax effects might be in the future of this list, disrupting the opponents' plans and denying their resources before setting Phage loose. My current experience with piloting Stax is that the strategy itself is real slow in a Mono Black list, although I play the Stax deck very little so I'm not definitely not the foremost authority on the subject of Stax. I've also noticed Commanders with colors for things like Life from the Loam are mostly unaffected by Stax effects(Mimeoplasm/Meren) and can play a game of attrition that's at least on the same level. Stax effects also come with a lot of high profile targets because of the game states it creates, generating some unwanted attention. A Phage list probably wants to lay low until an opportunity arises. Arguments can be made both ways I suppose.
But I digress... Ancient Tomb is definitely getting a spot in the list just as soon as I get one! Lol. I've never been a fan of Temple of the False God, though. Just so irritating to draw it in the opening hand. That might just be me, YMMV. I also like to keep the basic Swamps high because of the BBBB in Phage's casting cost and my tendency to slot in and out Lake of the Dead. I don't run the clone lands because I tried to take my list off Big Mana reliance since doublers/Coffers are high profile targets. I never felt like I was short on ramp though, I think I just prefer to have a lot of fast rocks/ Rituals instead of Thespian's/Vesuva. That may change depending on the direction the old list goes. Homeward Path is on my radar; All I need is a bad run-in with Zealous Conscripts haha. Same goes for Witchbane Orb. I haven't been Slaver'd yet, but I definitely get a rush of anxiety whenever it hits the table. Ad Nauseam Combo Phage is leading me to believe that the list is fully capable of powering out Phage without clogging up slots with the super niche effects. Command Beacon is really the all-star in this regard. I am a big fan of Withering Boon though, so that will probably stay. Removing those effects (Thrull Wizard, Sun Dial of the Infinite, etc.) can free up space for more disruption, hopefully creating a scenario to productively resolve Phage. I really like Mindslicer's low casting cost, but I typically like to hold answers in hand.
What made you give up on Nether Void? I did as well... It's reeeal expensive, but honestly I might be willing to throw down the cash if I had a solid enough build in mind. It's not something you can just put in a deck after all, requiring some forethought on how to make the most of the effect.
Kosmik Horror, thanks for sharing your list. It looks like it has solid game and is interactive within itself. I like the inclusion of Elbrus especially. Have you had any problems with the ETB Tutor creatures(Rune Scarred/Sidisi) against your Torpor Orb? I really want a reason to slot them and Disciple of Bolas for some Phyrexian Reclamation shenanigans, but Torpor Orb is a disruption piece I lean on frequently, besides the obvious synergy with Phage. Contamination/Infernal Darkness are just ridiculous against a board state ill prepared for it. I will probably go for those and Winter Orb for extra grief. The Shimian Specter hype is real, I ordered a playset this week just because lol. The spot 'Exile' effect is one of the features that makes it so appealing to me. People touch their graveyards a lot.
I'm on my way to play some games now, I'll be back with some updates and the Ad Nauseum Phage list for the interested parties. Thanks again!
Hey Jusstice, thanks for following and I appreciate you adding considerable insight to the situation. That is a sound approach to the format you have taken, I largely agree with what you've said about where Mono Black fits as a strategy. I had considered a pseudo-Stax/Prison package in the original deck as a means for board control, allowing more opportunity for safe swings for Phage. Something similar to what is played in Xiahou Dun Stax lists; Tangle Wire, Possessed Portal, Contamination/Bitterblossom and so on. It has been thus far difficult balancing slots for these effects with slots dedicated to the commander, but yeah denial/stax appears to be in sync with the overall game plan. That is, safely cast the commander on an unopposed board state and maintain that board state until all opponents are removed.
In practice, the original list suffered from the fact that there were too many pieces to assemble in order to achieve this board state while being able to cast the commander in a timely manner. Adding a disruption package such as prison/stax might exacerbate reliance on singular cards. Maybe. It could also be that the disruption package would provide the sort of breathing room to assemble the winning hand. While this strategy may not compete with the best in the format, I can see how it would increase it's viability and resilience. As I mentioned though, it's just been very difficult to balance Phage tricks and disruption while maintaining consistency. I do really like your suggestion of Shimian Specter for the original list, though and will consider him when I return to the old list.
Enter Ad Nauseam Combo, drawing half the deck and then casting Phage with haste/shroud/unblockable on turn 4/5 has proven very promising, addressing many of the issues regarding speed and consistency. You've got me again, however; It's been difficult taking out more than one opponent at the table. I'm testing Winter Orb in the Ad Naus version of the deck with hopes that the mana denial will help in that regard. Kaalia lists use Winter Orb to great effect, afterall. Playing singular pieces of disruption hasn't been as much of an issue here, with the high density of tutors and ability to hold half the deck in hand. It's very sad to whiff or have Ad Nauseam disrupted so I've been thinking about a backup plan, but it seems that slotting in anything other than lands/crappy 0 cast artifacts makes it too difficult to flip enough cards to hand. I've definitely conceded this deck idea to be more janky, but it is based on a 'competitive' list(Well, it's a fast list anyway lol). I'm actually not sure if I can talk too much about the Ad Naus Combo Phage list here, since it's a different deck. I'd be happy to start a new thread if anyone thinks I should. Anyway, thanks again!
Haha, funny you should mention the tutors DementedKirby. The Ad Nauseam Combo Phage list is rather monotonous(it's basically a storm deck afterall), which is partly what I think Rishana disliked about it. But I have some serious envy over the plays high tier decks can make lol. Drawing half the deck to put Phage into play with haste and unblockable definitely feels powerful.
It may just be a fact of life that a Phage list cannot be made on a truly competitive level. At least for the time being. The original list posted here was in fact a lot of fun to play. I bet one day I'll get tired of spamming Ad Nauseam, rituals, and moxes, but for now I'm hoping the boost that the combo list offers can help me reassess my previous list and make improvements based on high power level gaming. I might just put both decks together and switch out based on the pod, like you said.
After about a month of play testing in my new group, this list feels inadequate. My peers are of a considerable power level, where games are decided pretty much by turn 4/5. A lot of durdling happens if my first attempt to Phage is thwarted(and it almost always is). I suppose I shouldn't feel too bad not being able to hang with the likes of Azusa or Maelstrom Wanderer, but I can't help myself.
The deck has taken a completely different direction with it's primary focus on Ad Nauseam. User Rishana posted a list for Phage based on Merelen/Ad Nauseam decks once upon a time and I will be trying a similar list out. Rishana didn't seem to like the Ad Nauseam Combo version very much, but I myself am way impressed; A few games in, it's definitely way more consistent, much faster, and certainly more intimidating. Once someone has seen the deck play out, you can sense a shift in their next game with it. I'm hoping this new version pans out well, as I will probably not be updating this version of the deck. If you guys want to know more about how Ad Nauseam/Phage combo is going, feel free to PM me. Thanks for everyone's input on my Phage deck, I hope more of you try her out for Commander. Maybe one day we'll have something truly spectacular.
The early versions of the deck definitely made use of Sundial of the Infinite, abusing things like Whip of Erebos and Lethal Vapors. It was pretty sweet to keep the recurred creature since the EOT check never happens (or the creature doesn't get destroyed because the ETB trigger was exiled).
Praise be to the Command Beacon, which at the moment is my favorite method of getting Phage out of the Command Zone, mostly due to the element of surprise it offers. Torpor Orb or Sundial of the Infinite are basically out in the open and very susceptible to disruption. The Beacon provides an uncounterable means of putting Phage into hand. Having Crucible of Worlds with Beacon really makes it borderline broken in this deck as well. Although lately Torpor Orb has been putting in serious control work in relevant match ups, shutting down ETB effects from creatures. I don't run any ETB effects other than the Commander and it usually sticks around long enough to cast Phage through it at least once even if I cast it in the early game. My least favorite is probably Platinum Angel, so I typically try to use it as counterspell bait lol. The recent addition of Vedalken Orrery to the deck is going to make a huge difference in how it plays out, so the order of preference may switch around.
That's sound reasoning for the changes and it does good things to the average cmc. Drownyard Temple looks pretty cool, I'll have to try it myself.
Thank you, it's been frustrating learning how to sequence the effects properly, but that table scoop is just oh so rewarding. I am on the lockdown strategy, I actually like to think of this project as preparation for Braids' unbanning. Having access to Smokestack in the command zone is probably the difference that Mono Black needs to gain some competitive ground, as Griiver suggests. That was sort of my idea behind using Sidisi, but I'm finding Smokestack itself is far too frail rush it onto the battlefield on turn 2-3 without disrupting the board. Working to lock down the board with Contamination and Null Rod in the early stages of the game has been really making a difference for me. Pox and Death Cloud see heavy use in my list as pseudo-redundancy for the Smokestack/Braids effect and for the degree of symmetric disruption they offer. The inclusion of multiple ritual effects allows me to have the mana needed to make Death Cloud worthwhile, even with few lands and Null Rod in play. Magus of the Abyss is definitely not as strong as I'd like it to be, but I currently don't own The Abyss and using Anowon, the Ruin Sage doesn't seem like the proper substitute. His combat stats have been decent for times I have to resort to beat down however.
Mana Web is something I'm currently testing out, but all your points have also been in my mind regarding its inclusion. I really wanted something that offered pseudo-redundancy for Tangle Wire more than a means to stop control, for which Defense Grid is the way to go. I was previously using Orb of Dreams for the same job, which I think I liked better because it had more impact, making it difficult to accumulate mana.
Infernal Darkness was my selection for a stand-in while I saved up for Nether Void. I might play both anyway because having a redundant Contamination has been pretty favorable so far, but yeah.. I only try to sustain it for 3-4 turns at most. Like Griiver says, often that buys enough time to drop more lock pieces/get value from Liliana. I do agree it would probably get the axe if Braids was in the CZ. Do you think Lodestone Golem would make for a better substitute?
I love him and Skullclamp does too. Sengir Autocrat isn't necessarily bad, but Ophiomancer can feed the Contamination lock a little better I think. A Deathtouch blocker every turn is real cute, too.
Yeah man, thanks for helping to keep the dream alive. Mono Black Pox offers some much needed flavor in the cEDH meta.
Chalice of the Void is a really solid idea, it could definitely do some serious work in competitive metas. What do you think about Cursed Totem? It wouldn't affect anything in your list and shuts off some pretty relevant abilities. Arcum and Yisan for instance.
I agree with what your observations about Gate to Phyrexia and Grave Pact in that it's not always creatures fueling the engine. At that same rate, Dark Confidant seems more reliable than Shadows of the Past. Shadows is a really neat card though, how is it doing for you?
Desolation has been awkward so far because I'm usually the only one casting spells through the lock. It might be more effective with Braids leading the deck and I may just be playing it wrong. The fact that it doesn't affect the high output lands is very real however. I'm curious to hear what your experience with it will be.
I've drawn similar conclusions regarding Withering Boon, just kind of a pet card for me because my first EDH deck was Phage lol. You're right though, there are far more efficient solutions to the problem W. Boon tries to amend.
Thanks again, TrueNub. If you ever have the time, would you mind checking out my list? The initial idea was heavily inspired by your Braids.
THE CELL
Here's an update to the decklist. It's based on Gaka's old list for Griselbrand Storm and is less reliant on Ad Nauseam. It's less consistent than before, but it's a little more interesting this way I think.
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Charcoal Diamond
1x Chrome Mox
1x Coldsteel Heart
1x Defense Grid
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Expedition Map
1x Grim Monolith
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Jet Medallion
1x Jeweled Amulet
1x Lotus Bloom
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Vault
1x Mind Stone
1x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Opal
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Torpor Orb
1x Unstable Obelisk
1x Voltaic Key
1x Whispersilk Cloak
1x Winter Orb
1x Worn Powerstone
1x Dark Confidant
1x Overeager Apprentice
1x Palladium Myr
1x Priest of Gix
1x Skirge Familiar
1x Soldevi Adnate
1x Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
Land (36)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Cabal Pit
1x Command Beacon
1x Crystal Vein
1x Ebon Stronghold
1x Lake of the Dead
1x Peat Bog
1x Polluted Delta
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Strip Mine
20x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Sorcery (14)
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Bubbling Muck
1x Cruel Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Duress
1x Exsanguinate
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Mind Twist
1x Night's Whisper
1x Sign in Blood
1x Thoughtseize
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Dark Tutelage
1x Necropotence
1x Phyrexian Arena
Instant (11)
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Cabal Ritual
1x Culling the Weak
1x Dark Ritual
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Imp's Mischief
1x Insidious Dreams
1x Shred Memory
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Withering Boon
Apart from Ad Nauseam, we also have Necroptence, and the Divining Top + Basalt + Rings combo. Insidious Dreams is an all star in this new list, allowing the assembly of numerous combinations of cards to Scroll Rack into if we whiff on Ad Naus. I'd like to find room for Krark Clan Ironworks, Endless Whispers and maybe more silver bullet type cards, but frankly I'm not sure that kind of interaction is necessary. Things like Black Sun's Zenith are mostly irrelevant and kind of unwelcomed once Phage resolves. I can't say enough good things about Winter Orb, since this particular list can play through it pretty well. What do you guys think of it so far?
Have you thought about using Withering Boon as single-target removal? It's really helped against turn 3 Zur/Narset and can even stop things like Acidic Slime/Reclamation Sage. I'm not sure how sensitive your list would be to artifact hate because Braids, but in any case W. Boon seems like it could be at least as efficient as Innocent Blood. I agree that Leyline of the Void is a bit clunky, albeit powerful. Nihil Spellbomb might be a good option for gravehate and cantrips like the Relic. Shred Memory could be a possibility as well, with the transmute hitting a relevant cmc.
PatrickOnTheGo, that's rough to hear man. Honestly my night's are usually like that as well. Victories are so seldom, yet so sweet. My group would probably, depending on the board state, scoop to a well timed Armageddon/Cataclysm and then be better about playing around/responding to it in the next game. Not really hating that player out, just making sure they don't win the same way twice. I have a fair amount of rocks if we do play it out, and now everyone's attention focused on the Armageddon caster. It is very difficult to recover from this state however. I'm not really sure there are many decks that would are able to quite frankly lol. Kaalia is a high tier commander afterall. Rocks aren't necessarily the answer either - check Vandalblast. Something I learned from playing Legacy Pox is holding lands in hand. Skipping a few land drops is well worth it if you know what's coming. Playing cheap removal is a good way to stop Kaalia from reaching the combat phase as well. There's always Praetor's Grasp and Sadistic Sacrament to pull the problem cards from the deck. Redundant copies are a thing though, so they might not be the most effective. Resolving a battle-ready Phage has been a fair means of removing a problem, that is removing the player, putting you in an exceptional position in regards to politics. My list is high in evasion effects in order to minimize whiffing a Phage cast. Unfortunately if that succeeds, you are now the primary threat. Good luck on your gaming, let us know what you come up with. Feel free to share your list if you like.
I only played one game with my Ad Nauseam Phage last night. Some how I got the feel bads for casting Ad Naus during the endstep of Turn 2, resolving a battle ready Phage and Winter Orb on Turn 3. That's an auto-scoop pretty much. Winter Orb is disgusting, it feels way better than 'Exsanguinate the table,' although I'm not sure what the lesser of two evils are haha. Phage gets all the special treatment because I'm only committed to two decks at the moment, the other one is pretty well tuned. Thanks a bunch guys. I'll leave you guys with the Ad Nauseam Combo list. It's more or less like Rishana's, with a couple of tweaks because I lack the high-end tutors. Feel free to ask about it.
1x Astral Cornucopia
1x Brittle Effigy
1x Chrome Mox
1x Defense Grid
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Expedition Map
1x Grim Monolith
1x Jeweled Amulet
1x Lotus Bloom
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Vault
1x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Opal
1x Pithing Needle
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Spellbook
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Torpor Orb
1x Unstable Obelisk
1x Voltaic Key
1x Welding Jar
1x Whispersilk Cloak
1x Winter Orb
1x Memnite
1x Ornithopter
1x Skirge Familiar
1x Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1x Vampire Hexmage
Land (50)
1x Barren Moor
1x Blighted Fen
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Command Beacon
1x Crystal Vein
1x Dark Depths
1x Ebon Stronghold
1x Encroaching Wastes
1x Hall of the Bandit Lord
1x Lake of the Dead
1x Maze of Ith
1x Peat Bog
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Polluted Delta
1x Polluted Mire
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Strip Mine
26x Swamp
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Terrain Generator
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Cabal Ritual
1x Culling the Weak
1x Dark Ritual
1x Imp's Mischief
1x Shred Memory
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Vampiric Tutor
Sorcery (10)
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Brainspoil
1x Bubbling Muck
1x Cruel Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Duress
1x Innocent Blood
1x Mind Twist
1x Yawgmoth's Will
PS - Super jealous for your Cavern of Souls
PatrickOnTheGO, Ad Nauseam in the original list was found to be as you said, clunky. However it was, and is in my opinion, the best and fastest way to gather all the pieces needed to successfully send Phage into battle. Myojin was omitted from the original list to maximize the output of Ad Nauseam, but in the end it seems that Ad Nauseam is at it's best in a dedicated combo deck. I think the other problem was that the original list had difficulty maintaining board presence if Phage was killed. I loved the risk factor of it all, but Ad Naus left us in a position that drastically shortened our life expectancy. Most, if not all the resources were also spent gathering the pieces to get this point, leaving us horribly vulnerable. The speed of the original list was probably enough to support Ad Naus in more casual tables and 1v1, but my newest group plays rather competitively, demanding a reevaluation of the strategy. It had occurred to me then that Prison/Stax effects might be in the future of this list, disrupting the opponents' plans and denying their resources before setting Phage loose. My current experience with piloting Stax is that the strategy itself is real slow in a Mono Black list, although I play the Stax deck very little so I'm not definitely not the foremost authority on the subject of Stax. I've also noticed Commanders with colors for things like Life from the Loam are mostly unaffected by Stax effects(Mimeoplasm/Meren) and can play a game of attrition that's at least on the same level. Stax effects also come with a lot of high profile targets because of the game states it creates, generating some unwanted attention. A Phage list probably wants to lay low until an opportunity arises. Arguments can be made both ways I suppose.
But I digress... Ancient Tomb is definitely getting a spot in the list just as soon as I get one! Lol. I've never been a fan of Temple of the False God, though. Just so irritating to draw it in the opening hand. That might just be me, YMMV. I also like to keep the basic Swamps high because of the BBBB in Phage's casting cost and my tendency to slot in and out Lake of the Dead. I don't run the clone lands because I tried to take my list off Big Mana reliance since doublers/Coffers are high profile targets. I never felt like I was short on ramp though, I think I just prefer to have a lot of fast rocks/ Rituals instead of Thespian's/Vesuva. That may change depending on the direction the old list goes. Homeward Path is on my radar; All I need is a bad run-in with Zealous Conscripts haha. Same goes for Witchbane Orb. I haven't been Slaver'd yet, but I definitely get a rush of anxiety whenever it hits the table. Ad Nauseam Combo Phage is leading me to believe that the list is fully capable of powering out Phage without clogging up slots with the super niche effects. Command Beacon is really the all-star in this regard. I am a big fan of Withering Boon though, so that will probably stay. Removing those effects (Thrull Wizard, Sun Dial of the Infinite, etc.) can free up space for more disruption, hopefully creating a scenario to productively resolve Phage. I really like Mindslicer's low casting cost, but I typically like to hold answers in hand.
What made you give up on Nether Void? I did as well... It's reeeal expensive, but honestly I might be willing to throw down the cash if I had a solid enough build in mind. It's not something you can just put in a deck after all, requiring some forethought on how to make the most of the effect.
Kosmik Horror, thanks for sharing your list. It looks like it has solid game and is interactive within itself. I like the inclusion of Elbrus especially. Have you had any problems with the ETB Tutor creatures(Rune Scarred/Sidisi) against your Torpor Orb? I really want a reason to slot them and Disciple of Bolas for some Phyrexian Reclamation shenanigans, but Torpor Orb is a disruption piece I lean on frequently, besides the obvious synergy with Phage. Contamination/Infernal Darkness are just ridiculous against a board state ill prepared for it. I will probably go for those and Winter Orb for extra grief. The Shimian Specter hype is real, I ordered a playset this week just because lol. The spot 'Exile' effect is one of the features that makes it so appealing to me. People touch their graveyards a lot.
I'm on my way to play some games now, I'll be back with some updates and the Ad Nauseum Phage list for the interested parties. Thanks again!
In practice, the original list suffered from the fact that there were too many pieces to assemble in order to achieve this board state while being able to cast the commander in a timely manner. Adding a disruption package such as prison/stax might exacerbate reliance on singular cards. Maybe. It could also be that the disruption package would provide the sort of breathing room to assemble the winning hand. While this strategy may not compete with the best in the format, I can see how it would increase it's viability and resilience. As I mentioned though, it's just been very difficult to balance Phage tricks and disruption while maintaining consistency. I do really like your suggestion of Shimian Specter for the original list, though and will consider him when I return to the old list.
Enter Ad Nauseam Combo, drawing half the deck and then casting Phage with haste/shroud/unblockable on turn 4/5 has proven very promising, addressing many of the issues regarding speed and consistency. You've got me again, however; It's been difficult taking out more than one opponent at the table. I'm testing Winter Orb in the Ad Naus version of the deck with hopes that the mana denial will help in that regard. Kaalia lists use Winter Orb to great effect, afterall. Playing singular pieces of disruption hasn't been as much of an issue here, with the high density of tutors and ability to hold half the deck in hand. It's very sad to whiff or have Ad Nauseam disrupted so I've been thinking about a backup plan, but it seems that slotting in anything other than lands/crappy 0 cast artifacts makes it too difficult to flip enough cards to hand. I've definitely conceded this deck idea to be more janky, but it is based on a 'competitive' list(Well, it's a fast list anyway lol). I'm actually not sure if I can talk too much about the Ad Naus Combo Phage list here, since it's a different deck. I'd be happy to start a new thread if anyone thinks I should. Anyway, thanks again!
It may just be a fact of life that a Phage list cannot be made on a truly competitive level. At least for the time being. The original list posted here was in fact a lot of fun to play. I bet one day I'll get tired of spamming Ad Nauseam, rituals, and moxes, but for now I'm hoping the boost that the combo list offers can help me reassess my previous list and make improvements based on high power level gaming. I might just put both decks together and switch out based on the pod, like you said.
I'm not very sure on how to cleanly add a link, but this is Rishana's old post about Ad Nauseam Combo Phage. It might be good for a reference here.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/212436-dumb-five-fingered-derp-phage-combo
The deck has taken a completely different direction with it's primary focus on Ad Nauseam. User Rishana posted a list for Phage based on Merelen/Ad Nauseam decks once upon a time and I will be trying a similar list out. Rishana didn't seem to like the Ad Nauseam Combo version very much, but I myself am way impressed; A few games in, it's definitely way more consistent, much faster, and certainly more intimidating. Once someone has seen the deck play out, you can sense a shift in their next game with it. I'm hoping this new version pans out well, as I will probably not be updating this version of the deck. If you guys want to know more about how Ad Nauseam/Phage combo is going, feel free to PM me. Thanks for everyone's input on my Phage deck, I hope more of you try her out for Commander. Maybe one day we'll have something truly spectacular.
Praise be to the Command Beacon, which at the moment is my favorite method of getting Phage out of the Command Zone, mostly due to the element of surprise it offers. Torpor Orb or Sundial of the Infinite are basically out in the open and very susceptible to disruption. The Beacon provides an uncounterable means of putting Phage into hand. Having Crucible of Worlds with Beacon really makes it borderline broken in this deck as well. Although lately Torpor Orb has been putting in serious control work in relevant match ups, shutting down ETB effects from creatures. I don't run any ETB effects other than the Commander and it usually sticks around long enough to cast Phage through it at least once even if I cast it in the early game. My least favorite is probably Platinum Angel, so I typically try to use it as counterspell bait lol. The recent addition of Vedalken Orrery to the deck is going to make a huge difference in how it plays out, so the order of preference may switch around.