I faced Bant Eldrazi last night, man that matchup is hard. They dropped Worship and it was all over for me despite having lethal
I've been thinking more and more about Reclamation Sage after seeing the discussion a few pages back. Worship and Leyline of Sanctity get a lot easier to deal with when you have 5 copies of something to destroy them.
Since running Noble Hierarchs I've come around to Junk. They just smooth out some of the clunkier B/G/x openings and let you get off to a running start. I also think Junk is well-positioning if DS Jund is popular, because if people are running a bunch of Fatal Push/Path to Exile/Terminate then Lingering Souls starts looking good. I think a lot of my initial problems with Junk was finding a list that worked with my playstyle, but since getting over that hurdle I've been liking the deck. I have the cards for DS Jund, but I'm sticking with Abzan (for now) because I've been prepping for an IQ this weekend and didn't want to try learning a new deck 6 days beforehand. I'm looking to give DS Jund some love afterwards, though. I think it's definitely better than traditional Jund right now, and I really like what the Jund colors offer, generally.
You're probably right about Lingering Souls, I did watch someone get their spirit army mowed down by a Walking Balista and it was not pretty. Maybe I'll look to do something like this:
-4 Lingering Souls
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-2 Nihil Spellbomb
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
I was surprised by the lack of Abzan at the Open in Dallas this past weekend, but given how much Eldrazitron we saw on stream it's possible that people were over-preparing for DS Jund by under-preparing for big mana decks, and they got punished for it. It's interesting to see more of the Death's Shadow lists moving away from Lingering Souls and the white splash, which just makes the matchup even more in our favor.
I don't have much experience against EldraziTron with Abzan (I've played against it as Jund a number of times), how do you guys generally sideboard against it? I would imagine that we would want some amount of Gideons, Stony Silence (nearly 1/3 of the 75 is artifacts with activated abilities) and Damnation. Where I'm not sure is Fulminator Mage. I don't like bringing him in against Bant Eldrazi because their manabase is stable enough that popping off one land for 3 mana isn't a very big gain, and it doesn't feel good to answer your opponent's Reality Smasher with Fulminator. EldraziTron is definitely more reliant on hitting a specific combination of lands, which makes me think that Fulminator is a good option, but he really does nothing to help stabilize or overcome a board stall. On top of that, I'm not sure how many cards I really want to be cutting. My first thought is that LotLH isn't good, but beyond that I'm not sure. They play enough cheap non-creatures that I don't want to cut Abrupt Decay, and trimming Fatal Push doesn't feel great because I feel like I just won't have enough removal. I could see cutting IoK, but even then I'm looking to bring in 4-8 cards with only 4 solid cuts. I'm attending an IQ on Sunday and know that one of the better players at my shop will be on EldraziTron, so I'm trying to get a handle on the matchup ahead of time.
I've been wondering the same thing since picking up the deck. I think it largely comes down to how many white sources you need, since it probably replaces the 1-of Stirring Wildwood. While Treetop does die to Bolt, I think we're seeing a mild downtick in the number of Lightning Bolts in Tier 1, given that traditional Jund is on a bit of a downswing and DS Jund runs Tarfire. Treetop does start attacking a turn earlier than Wildwood, and the trample is great for getting past chump blockers (lots of Lingering Souls tokens these days), while the Wildwood is better on defense thanks to reach. I think Treetop might be better in Noble Hierarch lists because they only run 22 lands, but I have no strong argument to back that up. It probably just comes down to personal preference and what you don't want to lose to.
I played against Death's Shadow Jund for the first time last night running a fairly stock Hierarch/Flayer list, the matchup felt easier than I expected it to be. I ended up boarding out all of my discard and treating it like a normal BGx mirror, bringing in grindy cards like Gideon, Damnation/EE, Blessed Alliance (highly recommend), and Fulminator Mage (their manabase is horrendous). My opponent wasn't playing the white splash, which seems like a poor decision. Without having to worry about something like Lingering Souls, I had no problem keeping his board clear, even through a barrage of discard spells. I know this isn't the DS board, but it felt like it was incorrect for my opponent to keep all 8 discard spells in, as we quickly got to top decking and he was drawing discard spells when I had nothing (or lands) in hand. The lack of long-term advantage cards like Huntmaster and Dark Confidant meant that, as long as I could get chump blockers deployed, I wasn't really falling behind on card advantage if I needed a turn or two to find a removal spell.
My original expectation was that playing against the deck would be like playing against Jund with bigger dudes, but the deck just feels...simpler. They can't interact with the graveyard as well due to a lack of Scooze, the lack of cards like Confidant and Huntmaster means that they can't pull ahead as quickly in a board stall, and all of their creatures can be tagged by Fatal Push with a minimum of fuss. I expected Abzan to be favored, but I didn't expect to be that favored. I think DS Jund has a worse Abzan matchup than traditional Jund.
I'm still getting used to Abzan a bit (transitioning from Jund), but if DS Jund is the new deck to beat, I like our position in the metagame.
I've lost to Grixis Delver more due to play errors than any poor sideboarding plan. Our deck already matches up well against them, generally, so unless you're doing something crazy like cutting Goyf it's unlikely that your sideboard plan is making a big enough difference to solely lose you games. That being said, I usually cut Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push (I'm running a singleton), and a single Bolt to bring in 2 Surgical Extraction/Nihil Spellbomb, and 2 grindy threats (Kitchen Finks, Tragtusk, Thrun). I wouldn't bring something like Obstinate Baloth in because you want your creatures to either be immune to removal (Thrun) or strain their removal (Finks/Thragtusk).
You don't need to side in 8 cards to deal with Delver. Discard is important because if you don't create holes in their defenses by taking removal or counterspells, they can usually sequence their removal to cleanly answer what we're doing. I could see the argument for siding out some number of Confidant for more sticky threats, but he's just so insane if he lives that I think it's worth giving yourself the chance to have that happen. It's not unreasonable to run them out of removal before dropping a Confidant, they don't play targeted discard so he's pretty safe hanging out in your hand. I think this a matchup that's very easy to overboard for.
Fulminator is also particularly good against Celestial Colonnade, because it can chip in for 2 damage a turn while somewhat blanking removal. It does not feel good to use removal on a Fulminator Mage. My local Eldrazi player is on to my Blood Moon shenanigans, so I've been thinking about going back to Fulminators for a bit to see how it feels.
What are the general opinions on the Bant Eldrazi matchup? I'm currently on Jund, debating switching to Junk, but I'm nervous about not having access to Blood Moon. Does Lingering Souls make a big deal here? Are there other sideboard cards that Jund doesn't have access to that are a big deal?
The sideboard is as rough as rough gets, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to the cards so much as the strategies I'm trying to hedge against. This is also a first pass at a manabase based on a few lists I looked at online. It's possible that the deck wants more than that, but in goldfishing it online 22 lands hasn't been horrible.
The mana-base only has 1 Shambling vents, there's no way.
I feel like the 2nd copy will definitely be a 4th copy of lingering souls. 22 Lands seem low, too. I'm not very against your Abrupt Decay/Fatal Push/Path to Exile distribution, but that's only if those can make it in without issues
Also, I wonder if we will continue to use the nobles, we now have 13 cards for 1 mana. With 22 land, doesn't this mean we can never really afford to side her out? What mathches do we even side her out currently?
I have a feeling Thrun or Sigarda will be coming to the sideboard if the meta becomes midrange. Also, doesn't this list seem threat light? I feel like Tarm, Flayers are our only real pressure, and we have to hope to god souls can get the job done, which will be eating a ton of removal now.
At this point, with the way you constructed the 60, isn't bob just flat out better, seeing as how insanely low this curve is?
You saying your opening hands with this isn't TOO bad with the mana available seems scary as well, this deck will not mulligan very well at all
I know it's just a rough copy you constructed, just pointing out the possible liabilities
So, in addition to this I was also looking at a non-Noble list that added a second Shambling Vent and a Stirring Wildwood, then dropped the nobles for a 3rd Ooze and 2 Rhinos, but I'm not sure if one or more of those Rhinos should be Tasigurs. Maybe one Tasigur and one Anafenza, the Foremost? I'm not sold on the 4th Lingering Souls until the meta slows down, but I could see dropping the second Brutality when it does. I feel like I also want a second Maelstrom Pulse somewhere in my 75, for opposing planeswalkers.
For midrange mirrors, I'm sold on Sigarda and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and possibly a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Obviously Elspeth and Sigarda are too high cost for the 22 land list above, which is why I was toying with Gideon and Liliana, the Last Hope.
The sideboard is as rough as rough gets, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to the cards so much as the strategies I'm trying to hedge against. This is also a first pass at a manabase based on a few lists I looked at online. It's possible that the deck wants more than that, but in goldfishing it online 22 lands hasn't been horrible.
I think that the split of Abrupt Decay, Path, and Push should be:
4 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
For now, I'm going to try that alongside 2 Collective Brutality and 1 Maelstrom Pulse.
I'm transitioning to Abzan from Jund, and looking through some lists from MTGO I'm seeing a bunch of results using the Noble Hierarch build. Is there any kind of consensus on that build vs a slower, Siege Rhino-ier one?
I think it's also worth remembering that when they only banned Treasure Cruise in Legacy, those decks did just swap over to DTT until it was also banned.
As a Jund player, it's annoying to hear people complain about BBE into K-command being game-breakingly oppressive when we already have Snapcaster/K-command chains. BBE is a strong card advantage engine, but it's not going to suddenly warp Modern. That being said, I think that the only time they should unban it is if they're also unbanning Ancestral Vision, and vice versa. I think that both of those cards encourage their respective "fair" decks (B/Gx and U/x), but only having one in the format risks pushing the other one out. I could see BBE also encouraging a bigger Naya zoo deck, which I don't think would be a bad thing. The more people want to do things on turn 4, the less they'll kill you before then, which I think helps to encourage more deck diversity. When there's no reward for surviving until turns 4-5, there's no reason not to just play agro.
I voted to unban BBE and Ancestral Visions. I think that fairer decks could use a shot in the arm, but unbanning only one risks a scenario where either BGx or URx/UWx is significantly better than the other. I would argue that with the loss of Splinter Twin that's currently the case, with BGx being better than the blue based decks, but I think AV could swing things the other way in a very significant way. As a BGx player, I'm not a huge fan of that.
Macabre Waltz seems like a reasonable option against control out of the SB. Recurs two creatures and enables madness, bringing back Incorrigible Youths and immediately dropping them in the later game seems like a pretty strong play.
I've been thinking more and more about Reclamation Sage after seeing the discussion a few pages back. Worship and Leyline of Sanctity get a lot easier to deal with when you have 5 copies of something to destroy them.
You're probably right about Lingering Souls, I did watch someone get their spirit army mowed down by a Walking Balista and it was not pretty. Maybe I'll look to do something like this:
-4 Lingering Souls
-1 Liliana, the Last Hope
-2 Nihil Spellbomb
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Stony Silence
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Damnation
I don't have much experience against EldraziTron with Abzan (I've played against it as Jund a number of times), how do you guys generally sideboard against it? I would imagine that we would want some amount of Gideons, Stony Silence (nearly 1/3 of the 75 is artifacts with activated abilities) and Damnation. Where I'm not sure is Fulminator Mage. I don't like bringing him in against Bant Eldrazi because their manabase is stable enough that popping off one land for 3 mana isn't a very big gain, and it doesn't feel good to answer your opponent's Reality Smasher with Fulminator. EldraziTron is definitely more reliant on hitting a specific combination of lands, which makes me think that Fulminator is a good option, but he really does nothing to help stabilize or overcome a board stall. On top of that, I'm not sure how many cards I really want to be cutting. My first thought is that LotLH isn't good, but beyond that I'm not sure. They play enough cheap non-creatures that I don't want to cut Abrupt Decay, and trimming Fatal Push doesn't feel great because I feel like I just won't have enough removal. I could see cutting IoK, but even then I'm looking to bring in 4-8 cards with only 4 solid cuts. I'm attending an IQ on Sunday and know that one of the better players at my shop will be on EldraziTron, so I'm trying to get a handle on the matchup ahead of time.
I've been wondering the same thing since picking up the deck. I think it largely comes down to how many white sources you need, since it probably replaces the 1-of Stirring Wildwood. While Treetop does die to Bolt, I think we're seeing a mild downtick in the number of Lightning Bolts in Tier 1, given that traditional Jund is on a bit of a downswing and DS Jund runs Tarfire. Treetop does start attacking a turn earlier than Wildwood, and the trample is great for getting past chump blockers (lots of Lingering Souls tokens these days), while the Wildwood is better on defense thanks to reach. I think Treetop might be better in Noble Hierarch lists because they only run 22 lands, but I have no strong argument to back that up. It probably just comes down to personal preference and what you don't want to lose to.
My original expectation was that playing against the deck would be like playing against Jund with bigger dudes, but the deck just feels...simpler. They can't interact with the graveyard as well due to a lack of Scooze, the lack of cards like Confidant and Huntmaster means that they can't pull ahead as quickly in a board stall, and all of their creatures can be tagged by Fatal Push with a minimum of fuss. I expected Abzan to be favored, but I didn't expect to be that favored. I think DS Jund has a worse Abzan matchup than traditional Jund.
I'm still getting used to Abzan a bit (transitioning from Jund), but if DS Jund is the new deck to beat, I like our position in the metagame.
You don't need to side in 8 cards to deal with Delver. Discard is important because if you don't create holes in their defenses by taking removal or counterspells, they can usually sequence their removal to cleanly answer what we're doing. I could see the argument for siding out some number of Confidant for more sticky threats, but he's just so insane if he lives that I think it's worth giving yourself the chance to have that happen. It's not unreasonable to run them out of removal before dropping a Confidant, they don't play targeted discard so he's pretty safe hanging out in your hand. I think this a matchup that's very easy to overboard for.
So, in addition to this I was also looking at a non-Noble list that added a second Shambling Vent and a Stirring Wildwood, then dropped the nobles for a 3rd Ooze and 2 Rhinos, but I'm not sure if one or more of those Rhinos should be Tasigurs. Maybe one Tasigur and one Anafenza, the Foremost? I'm not sold on the 4th Lingering Souls until the meta slows down, but I could see dropping the second Brutality when it does. I feel like I also want a second Maelstrom Pulse somewhere in my 75, for opposing planeswalkers.
For midrange mirrors, I'm sold on Sigarda and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and possibly a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Obviously Elspeth and Sigarda are too high cost for the 22 land list above, which is why I was toying with Gideon and Liliana, the Last Hope.
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
2x Marsh Flats
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
Sorcery (12)
2x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
4x Grim Flayer
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Instant (9)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Painful Truths
2x Stony Silence
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Zealous Persecution
The sideboard is as rough as rough gets, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to the cards so much as the strategies I'm trying to hedge against. This is also a first pass at a manabase based on a few lists I looked at online. It's possible that the deck wants more than that, but in goldfishing it online 22 lands hasn't been horrible.
4 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
For now, I'm going to try that alongside 2 Collective Brutality and 1 Maelstrom Pulse.
I'm transitioning to Abzan from Jund, and looking through some lists from MTGO I'm seeing a bunch of results using the Noble Hierarch build. Is there any kind of consensus on that build vs a slower, Siege Rhino-ier one?