My experience with Narnam may be slightly more positive than yours for the fact I am seldom drawing into it (being a singleton), and it has gotten rid of Thought knot seers (becoming a "cantrip"), reality smashers and indeed the goyf. It has also walled off Nacatls and Thought Knot seers just standing there, gaining me life indirectly.
I think you're understating the number if times we actually just need to get rid of a 3-4 turn clock that's sitting opposite. I mean, OF COURSE i'd love to chord for 3 and win on the next turn, isn't that what our goldfish always lets us do? But when the opponent plays attrition trading spot removals for elves and has got u both hellbent and is smirking down your elf while his 5/6 saunters past each turn, topdecking a chord in that state often means X = 1-2 max assuming you've been allowed to keep a dork or 2. As the poster above you has mentioned, this can mean buying a whole lot more time. Sure Jund topdecks better, but if you're on 3/4 lands and 1 dork (typical typical outcome fighting Jund), who do you call? (style points if you topdeck the 1/2 deathtouch, play it and smirk right back)
I don't think narnam is bad per se, but my issue is that it's a reactive card in a deck with zero reactive elements game 1 typically. There are a ton of match ups that I don't want to see him in, which makes him a sideboard card for me.
When I'm looking at my sideboard, why not just run kami of false hope if your goal is to draw out a turn and survive? The renegade is for creature heavy matches with removal right? Well in that case the body size is almost always irrelevant, because we're assuming a scenario where we need the removal. Every other board state assumes we're not blocking to survive. Kami won't get rid of the creature, but it will let you survive more than 1 of them attacking. When my elf opponet goes for an ezuri pump kill, or when zoo goes wide, or when merfolk are island walking over I want kami. I'm already favored against eldrazi and Jund already feels 50/50 to me. I think it's packing sideboard heat when that ammo could be spent to shore up other matches more firmly. If it's a match where I can keep up 2-4 dudes, then for one more mana selfless spirit does the survival thing even better. Your opponet can't remove them before you get the effect either. So if the tutor resolves for kami/spirit on their turn the effect is going off.
Another issue I have with renegade is that I have a finite amount of tutor cards. I don't want to fire one off to stall the game, I want to fire one off to end it. I get that isn't always the case but it's a non-zero effect on me closing the door.
For what it's worth I think narnam as a 4 of in a aether vial warrior build with bramblewood paragon and metallic mimic is just a much stronger application. For coco/chord or coco/lead builds I need to end the game because my chances of winning a game plummet in % post round 4. Narnam doesn't get me there faster, it just gets me there more reliably post T3 if they have something worth while killing.
At this point anyone buying modern staples is gambling with their money. It's better to wait until spoilers are done in march to see what is actually getting reprinted as the whole point of why some staples are going down is due to speculation those cards are getting reprinted.
Edilon is a safe purchase as far as MM is concerned. The eligible sets won't reach to theros.
That doesn't mean it won't show up else where, but considering they've already had the fire/lightning premium deck as well I wouldn't really think it's in jeopardy of a reprint just yet. The enchantment type may weigh in on when it can see a reprint as well, as thus far those creatures are specific to theros.
Referring to the part of the post that I put in bold. I did not know about that. Up to what set is eligible for MM 2017? Thanks.
As for reprints to drop the price.. I'm hoping they would reprint Fulminator Mage one more time to lower the price a bit.
No worries! INN and RTR will be included in the MM eligibles this time around.
I do agree a fulminator mage reprint would be quite fantastic. I would love to finish my playset for less. It's a very good card.
Thoughts on chalice of the void on zero out of the side to deal with the new cheeri0s deck? Could even bring it in for affinity and setting on 1 on turn 2 is fine if we have a cavern in play if we can shut down an opposing deck with it.
Trying to proactively think of outs to the deck. It would allow us to proactively shut them off of the engine if were on the play without sacrificing any speed really.
Not thrilled about it being a non creature, but the idea of witch printkng a chalice on a stick sounds broken in half to me...could you imagine the salt?...the tilt? Erhnm, I digress...
Anyone else brewing outs to the pure steel/sram builds? Supposedly the deck has legs.
At this point anyone buying modern staples is gambling with their money. It's better to wait until spoilers are done in march to see what is actually getting reprinted as the whole point of why some staples are going down is due to speculation those cards are getting reprinted.
Edilon is a safe purchase as far as MM is concerned. The eligible sets won't reach to theros.
That doesn't mean it won't show up else where, but considering they've already had the fire/lightning premium deck as well I wouldn't really think it's in jeopardy of a reprint just yet. The enchantment type may weigh in on when it can see a reprint as well, as thus far those creatures are specific to theros.
I see Ajani being kept out of the loop, the Gatewatch goes, they are losing, he comes back and helps them win, but is fatally injured in the process, before dying he tells them about Elspeth and eventually they go save her, with Gideon sacrificing himself and Elspeth being the new white walker.
Obviously that won't happen because the members of the Gatewatch have plot armor so strong you can't take any threat to them seriously and since primal gods are chumps now no threat matters even a little bit and they are immortal, but that is how I see an arc written with ANY attempt to be taken seriously going.
this week's chapter was actually quite good, well written and the bit with Nissa was cute
chapters can be good, but the ARCS are written pretty much for children, no threat, no engagement, playing it extremely safe, and a little bit of language doesn't disguise that
Which gods are chumps?
The first ones that come to mind are the Eldrazi. They were sold to us as Lovecraftian, so above gods, all-powerful, you can fight the spawn but never even get the attention of the titans, much less hurt them in any way. 3 oldwalkers (who have been called gods in their own right) and three fairly serious ones at that took DECADES to build a prison that would barely contain shadows of the Eldrazi, the idea that what, 4(?) planeswalkers of the modern age could KILL 2 of them just by adding more fire is honestly an insult to the intelligence of readers, even modern Sorin could just walk into the room and kill the entire Gatewatch. and the whole 'the energy of all of Zendikar' doesn't change things, the Eldrazi should have been trapped with what was already made. better, they should have won, destroyed Zendikar and driven the Gatewatch away, maybe with a death. I'm actually a fan of Chandra, my favorite of the Gatewatch by a mile, and i like Nissa, but on their very best day with every pyromancer from Keral Keep helping them, Ulamog should have been 'oh look, a sparkler, OM NOM NOM!!!'
I think it's commonly agreed upon that BFZ, specifically the deaths of Ulamog and Kozilek are the second-lowest point of the MTG story. The first was Gideon punching back Ulamog's tendrils at Sea Gate. I'm going to assume the Mending affected the titans and absolved them of their plane-recycling function, weakening and making their power obsolete just to reconcile that trash story.
I dunno about you but I can parry an avalanche with a butter knife, it's totally realistic /sarcasm.
In all seriousness I second the motion that the tentacle punch was the lowest mtg story point. BFZ was painful to read and I generally look forward to the story articles now when I think back to the garbage they came out with before.
Although the lili/Tezz fight was tame, it at least showcased minions and spell slinging. What I found interesting is that her zombie (almost all incarnations of her zombies are 2/2 unless she's reanimating something huge) took on a 5/5 artifact (you know, the size of most of tezzerets creations) after a few rounds of combat.
She should have shown restraint and only raised 3 so at least the implied combat math for their spells and effects would make sense. Flavor fail...
So I'm sitting on a narset transcendant and I'm seriously considering moving it now that it's bumped a bit. Should I wait and hope the esper narset lists post stronger results and solidify in price or just move it now? I'm looking at nahiri's price history and she's bottomed out and is part of a much stronger package. I just can't see narset holding this kind of value when dragons had some legit good cards in it to facilitate pack cracks (coco/commands/etc).
Also looking to sell a oblivion stone invention and trinnisphere (okay not modern but may sell as a package deal if I can) invention. Should I hold or sell? I know the market is pretty saturated right now, but my concern is that those looking to buy in are already making their move and it may take me forever to move them. With a new set on the horizon wallets may empty out for MM17 as well.
So sounds a lot like grixis, then. Yahenni's is slow but it plays around different than damnation... thats annoying
Similar yeah.
collective brutality is surprisingly potent against us. Every time I play test the decks against each other I'm just like yeh...pitching this trash card in my hand is totally worth that dork/archdruid/coco/lead/chord...every time. It just lines up incredibly well on turns two and three.
If they're on 4 kill spells and 4 snaps, they match up very well to our 2 ezuris, 4 archdruids, 4 SotP. Basically only two cards they can't answer 1 for 1 after resolution.
At least you don't have to worry about electrolyze or izzet staticaster that grixis will run in the side. Those are much more backbreaking in my experience. I think esper is the easier of the two.
I am pretty non confrontational, but I am a huge advocate for the things I love. I can only take the whole "you don't conform to my idea of right" so much before I just let someone know that I'm done with them. Be it job, family, or close friends.
I spent years receiving slack for being a gamer. I grew tired of being under fire from some of the closest people to me, and pushed them away because of it.
My wife steps in if it becomes demanding on my time, and that's fine. But she knows I love doing it and respects me. She encourages it most of the time even. As a thank you I always give her first dibs on downtime. If nothing is going on, I'll gravitate towards some type of game though.
Sounds like this guy doesn't respect you and your wife. Call him out, firmly, but don't be overly harsh. Just simply state the activity and an invite. If his no isn't just a no but a dissertation, then end conversation. Either walk away, log off the medium, hang up the phone, whatever. After a few times he'll get the picture or ask you directly. Tell him that when he said no you had no interest in listening to the rest.
Just quickly want to see, does anyone have playtest or match results vs. the new esper decks showing up, and how did it go if so?
I haven't played against it, but I do own a version of it and am building it out.
The biggest threat imo is fatal push on the turn 1 dork when you keep a one lander and snap+push gives them enough outs to our threats. Eventually they will just wipe you. dwynen's elite and nettle sentinel can push through a lot of incidental damage to get them in SotP burn range asap. If they board in yehenni's expertise it's problematic for us, but slower than the more crippling sweepers. LotV isn't much of a threat to us.
Imo slow roll your threats after they get closer to sweeper mana, and chord/coco on their end step to force counters early so you can continue to chip in. Cavern is relevant in this match up.
Also, I think mikeduges was also making a foray into esper lists, so maybe he can share more insight. Maybe shoot him a PM, he has contributed a great deal to the discussion thus far so is familiar with both points of view.
Tron is on the rise again. God, I hate that deck. Anyway, anyone testing Rishkar yet? Haven't been able to play that much cause of school stuff.
Haven't tested, but we're pretty full in 3 drops as is. Is what he brings to the table better than our other options? I'd almost always rather cast a archdruid, ezuri, sotp in lieu of him and probably the other. 3 drop lords too on most board states. I guess he can turn a dwynen's elite into a stronger beater or ramp for mana 4+ through removal? Not sure regular coco elves benefits much.
3-1 At FNM (this is a few months old but I've only just gotten around to writing this one down.)
M1: Infect
Game 1, kept a fast opening hand and was able to race.
Game 2, landed a turn 2 spellskite that was met with twisted image, otherwise his hand was slow and the game came down to a misplay where he didn't activate pendelhaven prior to his exalted buff. It felt bad to win off an opponent punt but I had already let him fix that very same mistake in game 1.
1-0
M2: Breach titan
Game 1: I was very lucky to have a fast start with lots of mana, when he eventually found his anger of the gods I was ready with a chord for ezuri pump to save my team, I won on the next turn.
Game 2: I played out my hand as best I could but hit turn 3 anger. He followed up with a titan the next turn for the game.
Game 3: This match was in the top two that I have ever played. The first few turns involve both of us developing our boards, and I am playing very cautiously to play around anger. He tries to anger twice in a row, but both times I am ready with a chord for burrenton-forge tender or selfless spirit. My opponent boarded in crumble to dust for some reason so I get hit with that to take out a land, meanwhile my mana dorks and shaman chip him down to 7 life. Opponent untaps and through the breach-emrakuls me, down to 3 life, no lands, and six power on board. I attack to put him to one and pass. He draws a primeval titan and through the breaches it and kills me with valakut. Losing that land to crumble actually won him the game. Great game
1-1
M3:soul sisters.
G1:My brother always plays soul sisters so I have a lot of experience with it, and I can honestly say its a coin flip, you absolutley need Ezuri for the kill (since you give them such a high life total), and ezuri pretty much always wins, but if they have more paths then your ezuris you will lose to serra ascendants. I was lucky game 1 and stuck my last ezuri for the win.
G2: My dumped out sisters and got to 30 life quickly turning on his serra ascendants. The beat downs insued and I nearly died but a chord for ezuri sealed the deal in my favor.
2-1
M4: Dredge (this was pre-ban)
G1: My opponents deck looked like a complete pile in this game, and I just killed him before he was able to do anything.
G2: My opponent didn't have a fast start, but he found all of his conflagrates quickly, I sanbagged my elves as long as possible until I eventually stuck a scavenging ooze with plenty of mana. I exiled all of the threats in his yard but still didn't have a way to end the game. My scooze worked its way up to a 27/27 before I finally found an ezuri and finished him off.
3-1
That was the last round of the night, I'll admit that I ran well and had some good luck, but the deck continued to impress me. I had a lot of fun and look forward to the next time I can get a friday off from school stuff to go play again.
I agree with the sisters sentiment. There is a guy at my LGS who runs them from time to time and it does require ezuri every game unless his deck just doesn't come together. 3-1 is a respectable finish through dredge and breach though. I always feel favored against infect, I've never been that afraid of the matchup.
What is currently holding us back, what [quote from="mapccu »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/767834-collected-company-elves?comment=106"]What is currently holding us back, what hoops do we jump through that slow us down, etc. obviously the entire package for legacy makes for a much different deck (like cradle for example).
Maybe some kind of way to protect outlr Elves in board without disrupting our gameplan with the option to grind in the lategame.
Yes, I have Wirewood Symbiote in mind. But I think the card as it stands is too strong. Though it serves a similiar role as Arcbound Ravager. It leads to awkward remov situations and provides tempo as it buffs other creatures.
I don't know if Symbiote might actually be balanced or if a nerfed version might be even worth it. Just my thoughts.
</blockquote>
Yeh that's a good point. Something like selfless spirit was definateky an upgrade to what we had access to but the one shot effects aren't what I want. Ezuri's inability to protect himself is also frustrating.
What could wizards print that would push us into a solid tier one deck, the kind where we start demanding sideboard slots from the meta akin to dredge and affinity but nothing like a 20%+ share.
What is currently holding us back, what hoops do we jump through that slow us down, etc. obviously the entire package for legacy makes for a much different deck (like cradle for example).
Just a thought exercise I was running through. I mean renegade rallier on an elf instead of a human seems like it would be boss. Maybe another redundant heritage effect to increase our consistency? Haste, if even for a turn? I'd love a valid 2 cmc lord. I think all these things could potentially have some merit in supporting the tribe to the next level.
How are you guys feeling about Magic Digital Next, and its potential impact on paper magic? Its been something on the back of my mind for a while now. With the new CEO, it seems like there is going to be a huge push on digital versions of Magic, which may eventually put paper magic on the back-burner. This is probably a discussion for Magic in general, but Im curious what you guys think.
I could see it if somehow there's technology available that lets you experience the 'fresh cards' feel and smell from IRL pack openings. =P
I personally think paper won't see any decline in promotional material, support, or players if they focus for a better digital experience. If anything it will draw players to the paper game. The entire tournament scene and LGS system is built on the back of the paper system, who in turn churn out an incredible amount of free advertising for the game.
Some pockets may see a shift in players from paper to digital but I bet overall growth in the game is going to come from grabbing market share from other electronic entertainment. I just don't see it being very parasitic, but rather compliment initiatives like the standard super series or whatever that recent promotional was to assist in attendance.
That being said, pure opinion and I have no back up other then thinking on the topic. Just my two cents.
I think bring to light has merit in something like the panharmonicon combo builds. Where you can BTL a 1-2 of panharmonicon and just out value someone from there.
Unfortunately BTL is creature/instant/sorcery so no Panharmonicon. We'd need the new blue cord for Panharmonicon and that's rather heavy on mana.
Also with a servant out you can hit that 5 color mark to pull a fumigate if you need it vs aggro.
The 5-color mark has a lot of merit with both a 1-off fumigate and a Baral's Expertise where you bounce 3 and play a cat.
I'll tinker with a list and see where I can get with that.
Deep good catch. May still be good with something more tool box feeling. The GUWR saheeli decks could pull off the black mana pretty easily between attune, oath of nissa, servant of the conduit, and prismatic prisim. At that point you could go a little lighter on the combo and just threaten it while you just play the value game.
After SCG COL I think not running 2x fumigate in the 75 is going to be a mistake. GB decks just out grow radiant flames too quickly.
I don't think narnam is bad per se, but my issue is that it's a reactive card in a deck with zero reactive elements game 1 typically. There are a ton of match ups that I don't want to see him in, which makes him a sideboard card for me.
When I'm looking at my sideboard, why not just run kami of false hope if your goal is to draw out a turn and survive? The renegade is for creature heavy matches with removal right? Well in that case the body size is almost always irrelevant, because we're assuming a scenario where we need the removal. Every other board state assumes we're not blocking to survive. Kami won't get rid of the creature, but it will let you survive more than 1 of them attacking. When my elf opponet goes for an ezuri pump kill, or when zoo goes wide, or when merfolk are island walking over I want kami. I'm already favored against eldrazi and Jund already feels 50/50 to me. I think it's packing sideboard heat when that ammo could be spent to shore up other matches more firmly. If it's a match where I can keep up 2-4 dudes, then for one more mana selfless spirit does the survival thing even better. Your opponet can't remove them before you get the effect either. So if the tutor resolves for kami/spirit on their turn the effect is going off.
Another issue I have with renegade is that I have a finite amount of tutor cards. I don't want to fire one off to stall the game, I want to fire one off to end it. I get that isn't always the case but it's a non-zero effect on me closing the door.
For what it's worth I think narnam as a 4 of in a aether vial warrior build with bramblewood paragon and metallic mimic is just a much stronger application. For coco/chord or coco/lead builds I need to end the game because my chances of winning a game plummet in % post round 4. Narnam doesn't get me there faster, it just gets me there more reliably post T3 if they have something worth while killing.
No worries! INN and RTR will be included in the MM eligibles this time around.
I do agree a fulminator mage reprint would be quite fantastic. I would love to finish my playset for less. It's a very good card.
Trying to proactively think of outs to the deck. It would allow us to proactively shut them off of the engine if were on the play without sacrificing any speed really.
Not thrilled about it being a non creature, but the idea of witch printkng a chalice on a stick sounds broken in half to me...could you imagine the salt?...the tilt? Erhnm, I digress...
Anyone else brewing outs to the pure steel/sram builds? Supposedly the deck has legs.
Edilon is a safe purchase as far as MM is concerned. The eligible sets won't reach to theros.
That doesn't mean it won't show up else where, but considering they've already had the fire/lightning premium deck as well I wouldn't really think it's in jeopardy of a reprint just yet. The enchantment type may weigh in on when it can see a reprint as well, as thus far those creatures are specific to theros.
I dunno about you but I can parry an avalanche with a butter knife, it's totally realistic /sarcasm.
In all seriousness I second the motion that the tentacle punch was the lowest mtg story point. BFZ was painful to read and I generally look forward to the story articles now when I think back to the garbage they came out with before.
Although the lili/Tezz fight was tame, it at least showcased minions and spell slinging. What I found interesting is that her zombie (almost all incarnations of her zombies are 2/2 unless she's reanimating something huge) took on a 5/5 artifact (you know, the size of most of tezzerets creations) after a few rounds of combat.
She should have shown restraint and only raised 3 so at least the implied combat math for their spells and effects would make sense. Flavor fail...
Also looking to sell a oblivion stone invention and trinnisphere (okay not modern but may sell as a package deal if I can) invention. Should I hold or sell? I know the market is pretty saturated right now, but my concern is that those looking to buy in are already making their move and it may take me forever to move them. With a new set on the horizon wallets may empty out for MM17 as well.
Thanks all!
Similar yeah.
collective brutality is surprisingly potent against us. Every time I play test the decks against each other I'm just like yeh...pitching this trash card in my hand is totally worth that dork/archdruid/coco/lead/chord...every time. It just lines up incredibly well on turns two and three.
If they're on 4 kill spells and 4 snaps, they match up very well to our 2 ezuris, 4 archdruids, 4 SotP. Basically only two cards they can't answer 1 for 1 after resolution.
At least you don't have to worry about electrolyze or izzet staticaster that grixis will run in the side. Those are much more backbreaking in my experience. I think esper is the easier of the two.
I spent years receiving slack for being a gamer. I grew tired of being under fire from some of the closest people to me, and pushed them away because of it.
My wife steps in if it becomes demanding on my time, and that's fine. But she knows I love doing it and respects me. She encourages it most of the time even. As a thank you I always give her first dibs on downtime. If nothing is going on, I'll gravitate towards some type of game though.
Sounds like this guy doesn't respect you and your wife. Call him out, firmly, but don't be overly harsh. Just simply state the activity and an invite. If his no isn't just a no but a dissertation, then end conversation. Either walk away, log off the medium, hang up the phone, whatever. After a few times he'll get the picture or ask you directly. Tell him that when he said no you had no interest in listening to the rest.
I haven't played against it, but I do own a version of it and am building it out.
The biggest threat imo is fatal push on the turn 1 dork when you keep a one lander and snap+push gives them enough outs to our threats. Eventually they will just wipe you. dwynen's elite and nettle sentinel can push through a lot of incidental damage to get them in SotP burn range asap. If they board in yehenni's expertise it's problematic for us, but slower than the more crippling sweepers. LotV isn't much of a threat to us.
Imo slow roll your threats after they get closer to sweeper mana, and chord/coco on their end step to force counters early so you can continue to chip in. Cavern is relevant in this match up.
Also, I think mikeduges was also making a foray into esper lists, so maybe he can share more insight. Maybe shoot him a PM, he has contributed a great deal to the discussion thus far so is familiar with both points of view.
Haven't tested, but we're pretty full in 3 drops as is. Is what he brings to the table better than our other options? I'd almost always rather cast a archdruid, ezuri, sotp in lieu of him and probably the other. 3 drop lords too on most board states. I guess he can turn a dwynen's elite into a stronger beater or ramp for mana 4+ through removal? Not sure regular coco elves benefits much.
I agree with the sisters sentiment. There is a guy at my LGS who runs them from time to time and it does require ezuri every game unless his deck just doesn't come together. 3-1 is a respectable finish through dredge and breach though. I always feel favored against infect, I've never been that afraid of the matchup.
Yeh that's a good point. Something like selfless spirit was definateky an upgrade to what we had access to but the one shot effects aren't what I want. Ezuri's inability to protect himself is also frustrating.
What could wizards print that would push us into a solid tier one deck, the kind where we start demanding sideboard slots from the meta akin to dredge and affinity but nothing like a 20%+ share.
What is currently holding us back, what hoops do we jump through that slow us down, etc. obviously the entire package for legacy makes for a much different deck (like cradle for example).
Just a thought exercise I was running through. I mean renegade rallier on an elf instead of a human seems like it would be boss. Maybe another redundant heritage effect to increase our consistency? Haste, if even for a turn? I'd love a valid 2 cmc lord. I think all these things could potentially have some merit in supporting the tribe to the next level.
I personally think paper won't see any decline in promotional material, support, or players if they focus for a better digital experience. If anything it will draw players to the paper game. The entire tournament scene and LGS system is built on the back of the paper system, who in turn churn out an incredible amount of free advertising for the game.
Some pockets may see a shift in players from paper to digital but I bet overall growth in the game is going to come from grabbing market share from other electronic entertainment. I just don't see it being very parasitic, but rather compliment initiatives like the standard super series or whatever that recent promotional was to assist in attendance.
That being said, pure opinion and I have no back up other then thinking on the topic. Just my two cents.
Deep good catch. May still be good with something more tool box feeling. The GUWR saheeli decks could pull off the black mana pretty easily between attune, oath of nissa, servant of the conduit, and prismatic prisim. At that point you could go a little lighter on the combo and just threaten it while you just play the value game.
After SCG COL I think not running 2x fumigate in the 75 is going to be a mistake. GB decks just out grow radiant flames too quickly.