I also agree that there's only so much you can do to get people to score themselves.
Speaking of which, I think my games vs. Feyd_Ruin go like this...
Feyd T1 (20 life): lotus, lotus, chronatog, sulferic vortex; activate Chronatog (doesn't attack)
Me T1 (20 life): take 2 from Vortex (18); lotus, island, scavenger; Feyd activates Chronatog (now he skips his next two turns)
Me T2 (18): Scavenger trigger, Vortex trigger, Stifle Vortex. In response to Stifle, Feyd activates Chronatog, Vortex stifled, I get Stifle back; can't attack through 4/5 chronatog
Me T3 (18): same as last turn, until either I choose to take Vortex damage in order to Stifle Chronatog, or Feyd chooses not to Chronatog twice in a row and take his turn. This standstill ends up hurting the one who breaks it, so in order to not stalemate I would need to break it.
Me T4 (18): upkeep: Scavenger, take 2 from Vortex (16), get Lotus back; play&sac Lotus, Feyd activates Chronatog before combat and I Stifle, then attack for 3 (Feyd at 17, skips next turn)
Me T5 (16): upkeep: Scavenger, 2 from Vortex (14), Feyd activates Chronatog IRT Scavenger trigger, I get Stifle back.
Me T6 (14): upkeep: Scavenger, Vortex, Stifle Vortex, Chronatog in response; we're back where we were, except Feyd only has one-turn deficit.
Me T7 (14): same as my T4, 2 from Vortex puts me at (12), Feyd at (14) after attack.
Feyd T2 (14): 2 from Vortex (10), activate Chronatog (I don't have Stifle); don't attack
Me T8 (12): upkeep: Scavenger, 2 from Vortex (10), Chronatog before I get Stifle back
Me T9 (10): Now we really are back where we were on my T3, including Feyd's 2-turn deficit, except we both lost 8 life (me 10, Feyd 12)
(...)
Me T15: I'm at 4, I'll die with Feyd still at 3 if I attack.
Me T1 (20 life): lotus, island, scavenger
Feyd T1 (20 life): lotus, lotus, chronatog, sulferic vortex; activate Chronatog, I Stifle
Me T2 (20): Scavenger, 2 from Vortex (18), Chronatog in response to Scavenger trigger, I get Stifle back
Me T3 (18): we're back at T6 from when I'm OTP (stall with 1-turn deficit, but with different life totals)
(...)
Me T6: same at OTP T3 (2-turn deficit stall) except I'm at 14 and Feyd is at 15
(...)
Me T12: 2-turn deficit stall again; I'm at 6 and Feyd is at 7
Me T13 (6): upkeep: Scavenger, take 2 from Vortex (4), get Lotus back; play&sac Lotus, Feyd activates Chronatog before combat and I Stifle, then attack for 3 (Feyd at 4, skips next turn)
Me T14 (4): upkeep: Scavenger, 2 from Vortex (2), Feyd activates Chronatog IRT Scavenger trigger, I get Stifle back.
Me T15 (2): we're at a 1-turn deficit stall; I can't break it or I'll lose to Vortex.
So it's 2-2 I think. If there's any better line of play for me, please let me know.
Agreed. I missed the part where Feyd_Ruin activates Chronatog on his own turn.
Yeah, how am I supposed to beat his Leyline of the Void?
Ok, not my best moment. Leylines (except the ones that are banned) have the kind of effect on a game that I tend to forget. I will almost certainly overlook a Leyline of the Void again in the future, but I am trying to be better about it!
EDIT: I'm also reasonably sure that I go 3-3 against Feyd_Ruin since he can activate Chronatog before combat and/or on my upkeep to avoid mid-combat stifles.
You can also return Lotus. Stifle every other turn when it's relevant. You take four (double sulfuric), and Feyd takes five (attack plus sulfuric). Feyd can't afford to attack back because it would leave Chronatog tapped.
Incidentally, I would like more attention to correctly scoring matches. Last round's scores seem wrong in a number of ways. If people aren't going to score their own darn matches though then it becomes understandably difficult, especially with the math being as tricky as it is for the manaburns.
Noted - I often don't post my results line, because I know I'm going to get to it eventually anyway when I post the round. I acknowledge it would probably help if I were more consistent in that respect and will therefore be more consistent in future rounds, since more people posting results hopefully encourages others to do the same. That's basically the extent to which I think I can control the scoring.
On another note, there was slightly lower turnout this round than in the past few rounds. Not knowing the particular cause, if anyone wants to provide feedback, I always welcome it.
One thing is, it seems way more common now as opposed to when I used to play before to not score your deck
I've responded to this partially above. You and Anachronity share this concern, so it's at least helpful if not in and of itself good to see some through-line on areas of improvement. Beyond what I've said in my response to Anachronity, do you have any further suggestions about ways that I can have an effect here?
It's admittedly not an area I had given much thought until now. When I started playing, full grids were calculated by the moderator, and I think the shift to player responsibility for scores has been gradual but it definitely helps to prevent burnout on the moderator end so I'm in favor of keeping that approach and working with it as required.
Well, I definitely missed the aspect of countering the round trigger. I've made a note to myself to be mindful of that potential going forward.
Regardless, I enjoyed this round and the opportunity to finally play the scepter. The closest contender among other hands I was considering was the ABC's of mind control: Auriok Salvagers / Black Lotus / Conjurer's Bauble / Mindslaver.
On another note, there was slightly lower turnout this round than in the past few rounds. Not knowing the particular cause, if anyone wants to provide feedback, I always welcome it. We seem anyway to have developed a good core of players, and I'm also happy with that.
EDIT: Scoring this round didn't seem too complicated, so here's my pass at the grid:
EDIT: This round is relatively straightforward, so I took a crack at the full grid: Updated per WW's comment about Abolisher. I also realized that I can 4-1 Anachronity (end step Recoil Tomb, upkeep Careful Consideration).
5) Mogg
Mishra's Factory / Ratchet Bomb / Sinkhole / The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale / Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-- Not sure how you have me winning on the play, since you can still bomb leyline and sinkhole nexus twice even when I'm on the play to force a draw 2-2
Sea's Claim on Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth shuts off Sinkhole. I can't destroy Claim twice and destroy Leyline.
1: 6: Updated per comments by Anachronity and knobbodi.
2: 0: The Druid can afford to visit the Tabernacle.
3: 0: Emblem returns City.
4: 6: The goblins try to check out of the Tabernacle, but they can't leave. They stab each other with their steely knives but they can't turn two kill with beasts.
5: -
6: 1: Claim Factory, Bomb Void, Sinkhole Nexus twice. Nexus wins the race playing first.
7: 0: I can't salvage a win.
8: 0: WhammeWhamme is a formidable opponent.
Mogg's deck has the problem that if he plays turn 1 Miner and the Dreadnaught is answered, he loses to Mana Crypt.
Fair point. I considered Chancellor of the Tangle in place of Mana Crypt, but casting Dreadnought after Miner is problematic as well, and less explosive.
There are good points being made all around.
I'm admittedly out of touch since I haven't played much in a while.
I've voted in the poll, but my vote doesn't fully express my thoughts. Specifically, I voted for Leyline of the Meek, Exploration, and unbanning.
My inclination is toward the following, though not necessarily all at once:
Beast Within (ban):
My thoughts here are essentially in line with WhammeWhamme's. I don't find Elixir problematic; it's definitely better than Soldevi Digger, but that type of card is fundamentally balanced since it doesn't generate any of mana/answer/threat. In contrast, Beast Within represents two parts of that trifecta and pairs perfectly with Lotus outside of land rule formats. Essentially, Beast Within offers too many types of advantage at too little of a cost to hand construction.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (ban):
I'm on record as being against banning any of the Eldrazi titans for a long time, on the basis that it's good to have access to a big threat (once things like Show and Tell and Channel are out of the way). Additionally, I like the design possibilities for the shuffle trigger. At this point, I think Kozilek alone is sufficient. Ulamog was the best of the bunch and has been banned, but Emrakul is not so far behind. For how immediate its threat can be (t2 Shifty Doppelganger, Through the Breach) it creates an oppressive restrain on some rounds. On the play in land rule, the opponent's only window of opportunity in the game may be when they have a single mana available. Karakas isn't especially playable in land rule formats, and may not even create a win in non-land rule formats if the Karakas player is forced to leave his or her land untapped at all time. Chain of Vapor and Path to Exile aren't particularly good cards, but they are occasionally playable against big threats that aren't Emrakul. Shelldock Isle only exacerbates the problem.
Leyline of the Meek (ban):
Feyd_Ruin's general point is valid (and add to the list of things that beat it combos that go bigger), but I disagree with the contention that it isn't format-warping. It attacks formats from a specific angle that frequently requires answers which are less flexible and/or interesting than they could be without that hand. More flexible answers (to a point - see Beast Within) create more interesting formats, because they lead to more cohesive hands (rather than, for example, a four-card hand with a necessarily specific fifth card). Chancellor of the Forge has broader applications than Leyline of the Meek, so I'd prefer Leyline be the card that gets banned.
Exploration (ban):
My argument here is only personal preference. I've never liked Exploration, and if other people don't like it either, I'd be happy to see it go. That said, I think it's entirely legitimate to leave it unbanned.
Wasteland (unban on probation):
My guess is that this should stay banned in the long run, but there's also enough possibility I'm wrong that I'd like to give it a shot. I think it's good for the format if lands are safe from disruption in a way that Lotus isn't, because it means that if a player wants to sacrifice speed for resiliency, there's a clear starting point to do so. On the whole, I think a larger percentage of resilient hands leads to a more varied metagame and more interesting hand construction.
As a sidenote, I strongly disagree with the suggestion to unban Magus of the Moon. Like Beast Within, it combines answer and threat, and I don't miss the days where Black Lotus / Foil / Island / Magus of the Moon / other card was the best hand (it was, even if it definitely could be beaten).
Time Walk (unban):
I wasn't playing land rule rounds when this got banned. My understanding is that Anurid Scavenger + Time Walk was the offender. By current standards, this strikes me as incredibly tame, and I question whether it was ever even the correct hand at the time (and what strategies was it oppressing?). Time Walk is neither threat nor answer and by itself provides limited acceleration in land rule rounds. Going infinite with Time Walk requires at least one more card and must be executed in such a way that it is incapable of occurring before the third turn; once that's been established, it likely requires a third card to actually win the game. Essentially, I don't see how the card can be considered potentially dominant or restrictive to the construction of other hands.
EDIT:
Additional note on Elixir of Immortality:
As stated above, I think Elixir is far from problematic. That being said, it is generally superior to Soldevi Digger / Wheel of Sun and Moon / Serene Remembrance / Bow of Nylea / discard + Eldrazi trigger. There is merit to the argument that banning Elixir would add some small amount of diversity by making more of these other cards playable, but that's a more tenuous position than arguing that a strategy is dominant or oppresses other strategies, since there always will be cards of a type that are better than other cards of that type. If we want to go this direction, that at least warrants more discussion about the goals of the PHM banned list.
Unlike other spells that exile themselves, these two do so as the first step of resolution (presumably for clarity, since both spells interact with the graveyard).
Based on my experience with Mindbreak Trap, my understanding is that if a spell is exiled, it’s removed from the stack and thus will not resolve.
Since the instructions of a spell are followed in the order written, my understanding of the rules leads me to understand that if I resolve Time Spiral, I'll exile the spell, and then the spell will have no further effect.
Of course, this isn't the way I've ever seen Time Spiral played, but I can't explain why the rest of the spell's effects should happen.
Can someone please explain why these spells continue to resolve past the point of exiling themselves?
02: 6-0: See note to CA above, and t3 beats t4.
07: 3-3: psly4mne playing first leads with t1 Chant to delay Young Wolf. When I play first, t1 Wolf into t3 Bombardment (delayed by Chant) means Bombardment can shoot down Ballista played on curve.
Agreed. I missed the part where Feyd_Ruin activates Chronatog on his own turn.
Ok, not my best moment. Leylines (except the ones that are banned) have the kind of effect on a game that I tend to forget. I will almost certainly overlook a Leyline of the Void again in the future, but I am trying to be better about it!
You can also return Lotus. Stifle every other turn when it's relevant. You take four (double sulfuric), and Feyd takes five (attack plus sulfuric). Feyd can't afford to attack back because it would leave Chronatog tapped.
Noted - I often don't post my results line, because I know I'm going to get to it eventually anyway when I post the round. I acknowledge it would probably help if I were more consistent in that respect and will therefore be more consistent in future rounds, since more people posting results hopefully encourages others to do the same. That's basically the extent to which I think I can control the scoring.I've responded to this partially above. You and Anachronity share this concern, so it's at least helpful if not in and of itself good to see some through-line on areas of improvement. Beyond what I've said in my response to Anachronity, do you have any further suggestions about ways that I can have an effect here?
It's admittedly not an area I had given much thought until now. When I started playing, full grids were calculated by the moderator, and I think the shift to player responsibility for scores has been gradual but it definitely helps to prevent burnout on the moderator end so I'm in favor of keeping that approach and working with it as required.
Thanks for the comments!
Regardless, I enjoyed this round and the opportunity to finally play the scepter. The closest contender among other hands I was considering was the ABC's of mind control: Auriok Salvagers / Black Lotus / Conjurer's Bauble / Mindslaver.
On another note, there was slightly lower turnout this round than in the past few rounds. Not knowing the particular cause, if anyone wants to provide feedback, I always welcome it. We seem anyway to have developed a good core of players, and I'm also happy with that.
EDIT: Scoring this round didn't seem too complicated, so here's my pass at the grid:
X| 1 2 3 4 5 6 |
1| X 6 2 6 0 6 | 20 | 400
2| 0 X 0 0 2 6 | 08 | 160
3| 2 6 X 0 6 6 | 20 | 400
4| 0 6 6 X 2 3 | 16 | 320
5| 6 2 0 2 X 3 | 12 | 240
6| 0 0 0 3 3 X | 04 | 080
I think you can drop t1 Depths, and Anachronity has to t2 cast Inquiry before playing Tomb. Depths slowly wins by itself.
X| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1| X 0 6 1 6 6 0 | 19 | 317
2| 6 X 6 0 6 6 0 | 24 | 400
3| 0 0 X 0 3 6 0 | 08 | 133
4| 4 6 6 X 6 6 2 | 30 | 500
5| 0 0 3 0 X 6 0 | 08 | 133
6| 0 0 0 0 0 X 0 | 00 | 000
7| 6 6 6 2 6 6 X | 32 | 533
Sea's Claim on Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth shuts off Sinkhole. I can't destroy Claim twice and destroy Leyline.
5| 6 0 0 6 X 1 0 0 | 13 | 186
1: 6: Updated per comments by Anachronity and knobbodi.
2: 0: The Druid can afford to visit the Tabernacle.
3: 0: Emblem returns City.
4: 6: The goblins try to check out of the Tabernacle, but they can't leave. They stab each other with their steely knives but they can't turn two kill with beasts.
5: -
6: 1: Claim Factory, Bomb Void, Sinkhole Nexus twice. Nexus wins the race playing first.
7: 0: I can't salvage a win.
8: 0: WhammeWhamme is a formidable opponent.
Fair point. I considered Chancellor of the Tangle in place of Mana Crypt, but casting Dreadnought after Miner is problematic as well, and less explosive.
Also, welcome back!
4| 2 3 6 X 6 0 | 16 | 320
X| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
5| 0 6 6 3 X 3 0 | 16 | 267
X| 1 2 3 4 5
2| 0 X 0 6 6 | 300
I definitely expected more Moxen. My first idea was Beast Within / Elixir of Immortality / Mayor of Avabruck / Mox Emerald
I'm admittedly out of touch since I haven't played much in a while.
I've voted in the poll, but my vote doesn't fully express my thoughts. Specifically, I voted for Leyline of the Meek, Exploration, and unbanning.
My inclination is toward the following, though not necessarily all at once:
Ban:
Beast Within
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Leyline of the Meek
Exploration (LR banned list)
Unban:
Wasteland
Time Walk (LR banned list)
Beast Within (ban):
My thoughts here are essentially in line with WhammeWhamme's. I don't find Elixir problematic; it's definitely better than Soldevi Digger, but that type of card is fundamentally balanced since it doesn't generate any of mana/answer/threat. In contrast, Beast Within represents two parts of that trifecta and pairs perfectly with Lotus outside of land rule formats. Essentially, Beast Within offers too many types of advantage at too little of a cost to hand construction.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (ban):
I'm on record as being against banning any of the Eldrazi titans for a long time, on the basis that it's good to have access to a big threat (once things like Show and Tell and Channel are out of the way). Additionally, I like the design possibilities for the shuffle trigger. At this point, I think Kozilek alone is sufficient. Ulamog was the best of the bunch and has been banned, but Emrakul is not so far behind. For how immediate its threat can be (t2 Shifty Doppelganger,
Through the Breach) it creates an oppressive restrain on some rounds. On the play in land rule, the opponent's only window of opportunity in the game may be when they have a single mana available. Karakas isn't especially playable in land rule formats, and may not even create a win in non-land rule formats if the Karakas player is forced to leave his or her land untapped at all time. Chain of Vapor and Path to Exile aren't particularly good cards, but they are occasionally playable against big threats that aren't Emrakul. Shelldock Isle only exacerbates the problem.
Leyline of the Meek (ban):
Feyd_Ruin's general point is valid (and add to the list of things that beat it combos that go bigger), but I disagree with the contention that it isn't format-warping. It attacks formats from a specific angle that frequently requires answers which are less flexible and/or interesting than they could be without that hand. More flexible answers (to a point - see Beast Within) create more interesting formats, because they lead to more cohesive hands (rather than, for example, a four-card hand with a necessarily specific fifth card).
Chancellor of the Forge has broader applications than Leyline of the Meek, so I'd prefer Leyline be the card that gets banned.
Exploration (ban):
My argument here is only personal preference. I've never liked Exploration, and if other people don't like it either, I'd be happy to see it go. That said, I think it's entirely legitimate to leave it unbanned.
Wasteland (unban on probation):
My guess is that this should stay banned in the long run, but there's also enough possibility I'm wrong that I'd like to give it a shot. I think it's good for the format if lands are safe from disruption in a way that Lotus isn't, because it means that if a player wants to sacrifice speed for resiliency, there's a clear starting point to do so. On the whole, I think a larger percentage of resilient hands leads to a more varied metagame and more interesting hand construction.
As a sidenote, I strongly disagree with the suggestion to unban Magus of the Moon. Like Beast Within, it combines answer and threat, and I don't miss the days where Black Lotus / Foil / Island / Magus of the Moon / other card was the best hand (it was, even if it definitely could be beaten).
Time Walk (unban):
I wasn't playing land rule rounds when this got banned. My understanding is that Anurid Scavenger + Time Walk was the offender. By current standards, this strikes me as incredibly tame, and I question whether it was ever even the correct hand at the time (and what strategies was it oppressing?). Time Walk is neither threat nor answer and by itself provides limited acceleration in land rule rounds. Going infinite with Time Walk requires at least one more card and must be executed in such a way that it is incapable of occurring before the third turn; once that's been established, it likely requires a third card to actually win the game. Essentially, I don't see how the card can be considered potentially dominant or restrictive to the construction of other hands.
EDIT:
Additional note on Elixir of Immortality:
As stated above, I think Elixir is far from problematic. That being said, it is generally superior to Soldevi Digger / Wheel of Sun and Moon / Serene Remembrance / Bow of Nylea / discard + Eldrazi trigger. There is merit to the argument that banning Elixir would add some small amount of diversity by making more of these other cards playable, but that's a more tenuous position than arguing that a strategy is dominant or oppresses other strategies, since there always will be cards of a type that are better than other cards of that type. If we want to go this direction, that at least warrants more discussion about the goals of the PHM banned list.
My question is about the cards Ill-Gotten Gains and Time Spiral.
Unlike other spells that exile themselves, these two do so as the first step of resolution (presumably for clarity, since both spells interact with the graveyard).
Based on my experience with Mindbreak Trap, my understanding is that if a spell is exiled, it’s removed from the stack and thus will not resolve.
Since the instructions of a spell are followed in the order written, my understanding of the rules leads me to understand that if I resolve Time Spiral, I'll exile the spell, and then the spell will have no further effect.
Of course, this isn't the way I've ever seen Time Spiral played, but I can't explain why the rest of the spell's effects should happen.
Can someone please explain why these spells continue to resolve past the point of exiling themselves?
Thanks!
@Convoy_Avenger: Torpor Orb doesn't interact with undying or persist.@psly4mne: I think you may have missed my ability to interact; see below.
My line:
XX| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
04| 6 0 6 X 6 6 3 6 6 | 38 | 475
Match-specific notes:
02: 6-0: See note to CA above, and t3 beats t4.
07: 3-3: psly4mne playing first leads with t1 Chant to delay Young Wolf. When I play first, t1 Wolf into t3 Bombardment (delayed by Chant) means Bombardment can shoot down Ballista played on curve.