There was a time I might have allowed it because there were no options for 4 color but to be honest. I would be kind of more strongly against it now. I know of all the reasons people do want to play them but at the same time. What is to keep me from showing up with Cabal Coffers or Ugin, the Spirit Dragon as a commander? The established rules of the format I guess is the answer. Showing up with a nephilim deck would in my mind be something akin to showing up with Braids as your commander and being like you guys are cool with this right? The rules as the format is does not allow it so I would suggest talking to your group before assuming its fine and building it.
If you want to talk to your group and propose a change to the rules thats fine. I dont really think just showing up with a deck and assuming they would be cool with it would be so cool. I am against the idea of allowing someone to play with a commander of the sort because what if I want an exclusion to allow me to run card X or Y? Where does it stop? Can I just jam two legends together and pretend they both have partner while we are at it?
More seriously, Braids is explicitly banned and for a good reason, so the obvious answer is 'no'. I understand the slippery slope argument you're making though; my rule of thumb is "is it better than anything else you could be playing?". If the answer is "yes" or "it's hard to tell" (Ugin, because he's stronger than the commander-PWs but he's also colorless) then I would request that they play a normal deck, then maybe play a game or two with them against their 'illegal' deck once I'm convinced they're not going to be abusing the exception or they're not going to be stubborn or confrontational about it if the group decides that the deck isn't fun or fair to play against.
If the answer is "no", well, there's your slippery slope again. Who decides that a card is better or worse than another card, in a game where card interaction is so important? My personal criteria centers around the idea that aggro and battlecruiser are underpowered while combo and control are dangerous and ramp is somewhere in the middle (hence why I'm not okay with Ink-Treader; he combos with a large subset of cards in a very non-restrictive set of colors). Oversoul of Dusk exemplifies the problem with my method moreso than most: it's clearly legendary flavor-wise, and it's "fair" in terms of power for mana paid. It doesn't combo and is decidedly not the best choice you could make for combo, control, or ramp. On the other hand, it's extremely good against three of the five colors and is almost impossible to remove without white or board wipe. Someone playing Sedris, the Traitor King is gonna have a bad time against Oversoul. And then on yet another hand, Animar is totally a card and is even more removal-resistant and combo-y than Oversoul. Should I then be okay with Oversoul if she was in Animar's colors instead of G/W?
There's definitely a lot of crevices for arguments to sprout from there, but there are too many neat possibilities (Gisela and Bruna, for example) to discount it entirely. Overall, I think a simple group vote is fairest.
Then again, I'm also the sort who would potentially be okay with custom-made commander cards, so YMMV.
Um... what about Yasova Dragonclaw? On her own, she lets you threaten a power 3 or less creature every turn.
Brion Stoutarm is also good for a threaten deck, even if he doesn't threaten himself. Threaten+Fling is always a strong combo.
Ah, I would appear to have missed her due to her conditions, since I only searched for "gain control of target (creature/permanent/nonland permanent) until end of turn." (and had known about the Kirin ahead of time)
Probably, but I rather focus on the oppression to cause some real problems. There is a guy I play who plays oppressive decks (or at least they feel oppressive, but maybe that is just a Deveri thing) though he wins about 90% of the games he plays. So instead of putting all my money into insanely powerful decks and (Which i probably could do, but that is not the goal i have in mind) I rather just build a deck that puts me on par or even above. That is why I wish to build oppression. My atraxa deck had oppression, but that was not a primary focus (like it was but it was not panning out properly). Now with Leovold it will be.
Ah. Yeah, Derevi is one of the most overpowered commanders out there (though Leovold is on-par). You're definitely justified in going all-out Leovold, but you might just want to talk to said guy about playing more reasonable commanders if only for the sake of anyone else playing with you two (or make the deck, then talk to him about it, then play the deck if he says 'no').
@Lithl that's pretty interesting. I really like the lore of that block overall.
I have wanted to make a Dominus of Fealty deck for some time. There aren't any other legitimate 'threaten' effect commanders other than Skyfire Kirin who requires arcane spells (there aren't enough good ones for EDH) and who doesn't even untap the creatures or give them haste...
I go with mono-red Daretti, MLD and stax.
However, I think there is a point to be made for Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. Just turn the lands into creatures... creatures die a lot...
Gruul would be an option, too, to give Kamahl a home.
Going to second this one. If you want your commander to be the MLD then Kamahl is your man.
If you just want to play colors with lots of MLD, then I like Queen Marchesa: she's in the colors, she gives bonus cards to help you recover faster (or continuous deathtouch tokens if you aren't the monarch), and she doesn't have blue or green so MLD really helps her stay relevant.
This is broken, as you want it, it is so powerful that the cost to cast from exile would have to be so high that the cards are near unplayable; it is too easy to simply endlessly cast this from exile. Exile is supposed to be the place to get rid of things permanently, this mechanic is just another step in the dangerous direction of having exile becoming just another graveyard.
Endlessly cast from exile? You realize if you cast it from exile it just ends up back in the graveyard, right? Or were you referring to the guy above you and not the OP?
The card alone doesn't cycle endlessly. User's point is that it's "too easy" because cards like Relic of Progenitus, Grim Lavamancer (a powerful modern card), or Scrabbling Claws exist. What's worse is that there are almost no cards to stop you from exiling your graveyard or casting cards from exile (I'm sure one or two do it as a side effect? Exiling facedown would work at the very least). Exiling cards in the graveyard is supposed to be how you prevent them from affecting the game further; this mechanic would require its own set of hate cards ("players can't cast spells from exile" or "turn all cards in exile facedown") in order to stop it from being overpowered, at which point exile has become just another graveyard.
EDIT: Also the basic effect for Wait for Reinforcements is undercosted compared to Safe Passage even without considering the soldier tokens or the reverse-flashback mechanic.
And, if you're wondering why Runic Repetition is okay while this isn't, it's because there aren't a whole lot of flashback cards that return instants/sorceries from your graveyard (most of them would need an intermediary creature like Unburial Rites with a Mnemonic Wall) and because Runic Repetition itself has no way to come back from exile, so the cycle can still be disrupted there. There are a staggering number of cards that could exile the reverse flashback cards for you for a second go, so your cycle couldn't easily or reasonably be stopped.
Ah; I would agree then. Typically what I see when people ask about nephili or Elbrus, the Binding Blade or what have you is that they just keep entirely different decks at the ready in case people say "no".
The main criteria in multiplayer for me is instant-speed, which is why I like act of aggression over others. It's very nice to be able to block that 7/7 deathtouch with your opponent's 50/50 counter monster.
Beyond that, versatility is the main criteria. Hijack is the same 3 cmc as Threaten, but it can grab artifacts too. I would not pay more than 3 for one of these effects unless it is instant-speed or can grab noncreature permanents.
Running a Commander that depends on table approval is akin to running one that can be "permanently removed" from the game at any time and if the deck that cannot adjust to that (instead hoping that table approval always happens) just feels like "bad design" to me.
Erm... I would hope that the table would figure out if it's okay before the game starts. Having them toss out their commander halfway through is a bit cruel, to say the least. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying here?
Frankly I think your story is why Saskia is by far the worst precon general; he's the opposite of political. I played that same deck and opted for Tymna and Tana because they're much less confrontational.
Generally speaking, though, I think it's reasonable to target the better player to *some* extent.
Relating to plushpenguin's comment, I also wish people would be much more mindful of card advantage and deck type rather than just board state. I know a guy who likes control-combo Sharuum, and I hate playing in any game with him that contains new or inexperienced players because they always target the one with the more dangerous board state (me) and let him combo off because they don't know Sharuum well enough. Now there's something to be said for appearing non-threatening, but certain archetypes (poor, poor aggro) are much worse at this than, say, control, and when a new player ignores the control player's hand size and targets me then there's no way I can win.
Not sure about the story, but they certainly seem legendary (Oversoul, Divinity, Deus, and Godhead, among others, don't sound like words you would use to describe nonspecific individuals), which I guess is the point I'm making; where is the line? As for Demigod of Revenge, I suspect its multiple-copies gimmick is solely mechanical (it haunts you for each time you kill it!) and that story-wise there aren't multiple of it. And again, I have no knowledge of the story surrounding them or what R&D was thinking, but I suspect that making Demigod's gimmick work is the reason that they weren't all legendary.
Honestly any of them would be okay in my book as long as they didn't turn out to be abusive (Oversoul of Dusk would also be a bit mean-spirited since it's extremely uninteractive unless you happen to be playing one of two colors... and because it's a spirit haha get it?-I'll stop now)
Queen Marchesa works; she doesn't always produce tokens, but the card advantage is pretty good if she doesn't. Plus these colors have access to just about every card relevant to tokens that isn't green.
Incidentally, there's also an argument to be made for Bringer of the White Dawn et. al.
And for the 10 super-hybrid spirit avatars from Llorwyn; Godhead of Awe and such.
I'm honestly not really opposed to any of them being played casually, since none of them are more overpowered than, say, Leovold, and they all feel 'legendary'. The only question then is "where do we draw the line"?
Rakis is like Kaervek the Merciless at under half the mana cost. Probably not okay since Kaervek is a pretty strong and oppressive commander.
Keria's first ability might be a bit strong; it's hard to tell. I would remove haste and vigilance from her second ability and add lifelink to better fit her colors (Hexproof and Trample for green, Lifelink and Deathtouch for black). I would also stick to 2/2 black zombie tokens since those are the 'standard' for zombies. Either make it cost 2(B/G) for 2 zombies, or tone it down to 1 zombie at (B/G). I realize that she wants as many tokens as possible for as cheap as possible, but IMO commanders shouldn't synergize 100% perfectly with themselves - that's what the other 99 cards are for.
I really feel like Y'ton should cost 1WG at least. Indestructible is quite strong on a commander with a very powerful effect like that (it wouldn't be that crazy except that it triggers off of opponents' creatures and, as mentioned, you can potentially make as many copies as you have mana for). Goes infinite with Concordant Crossroads and Llanowar Druid (or Thousand-Year Elixir and any creature with the requisite mana cost that can produce at least 2 mana); you might want to make it "Whenever another nontoken creature with converted mana cost two or less enters the battlefield you may pay 1(G/W) any number of times. If you do, create a copy of that creature for each time you payed that cost." to prevent those combos and make the fact that it can create multiple copies more intuitive (if that is, in fact, the intent).
Jerra goes infinite with all sorts of stuff. She also feels very awkward in UG since, by default, you'll be getting the mana during the combat phase when you attack which feels more RG. Conceptually she's pretty reasonable other than the infinites.
If your two legends are Gisela, the Broken Blade and Bruna, the Fading Light then a lot of people would say yes!
More seriously, Braids is explicitly banned and for a good reason, so the obvious answer is 'no'. I understand the slippery slope argument you're making though; my rule of thumb is "is it better than anything else you could be playing?". If the answer is "yes" or "it's hard to tell" (Ugin, because he's stronger than the commander-PWs but he's also colorless) then I would request that they play a normal deck, then maybe play a game or two with them against their 'illegal' deck once I'm convinced they're not going to be abusing the exception or they're not going to be stubborn or confrontational about it if the group decides that the deck isn't fun or fair to play against.
If the answer is "no", well, there's your slippery slope again. Who decides that a card is better or worse than another card, in a game where card interaction is so important? My personal criteria centers around the idea that aggro and battlecruiser are underpowered while combo and control are dangerous and ramp is somewhere in the middle (hence why I'm not okay with Ink-Treader; he combos with a large subset of cards in a very non-restrictive set of colors). Oversoul of Dusk exemplifies the problem with my method moreso than most: it's clearly legendary flavor-wise, and it's "fair" in terms of power for mana paid. It doesn't combo and is decidedly not the best choice you could make for combo, control, or ramp. On the other hand, it's extremely good against three of the five colors and is almost impossible to remove without white or board wipe. Someone playing Sedris, the Traitor King is gonna have a bad time against Oversoul. And then on yet another hand, Animar is totally a card and is even more removal-resistant and combo-y than Oversoul. Should I then be okay with Oversoul if she was in Animar's colors instead of G/W?
There's definitely a lot of crevices for arguments to sprout from there, but there are too many neat possibilities (Gisela and Bruna, for example) to discount it entirely. Overall, I think a simple group vote is fairest.
Then again, I'm also the sort who would potentially be okay with custom-made commander cards, so YMMV.
Ah, I would appear to have missed her due to her conditions, since I only searched for "gain control of target (creature/permanent/nonland permanent) until end of turn." (and had known about the Kirin ahead of time)
Much obliged!
Ah. Yeah, Derevi is one of the most overpowered commanders out there (though Leovold is on-par). You're definitely justified in going all-out Leovold, but you might just want to talk to said guy about playing more reasonable commanders if only for the sake of anyone else playing with you two (or make the deck, then talk to him about it, then play the deck if he says 'no').
I have wanted to make a Dominus of Fealty deck for some time. There aren't any other legitimate 'threaten' effect commanders other than Skyfire Kirin who requires arcane spells (there aren't enough good ones for EDH) and who doesn't even untap the creatures or give them haste...
Seriously, I think you could build green-centric aggro Leovold and still be oppressive.
Going to second this one. If you want your commander to be the MLD then Kamahl is your man.
If you just want to play colors with lots of MLD, then I like Queen Marchesa: she's in the colors, she gives bonus cards to help you recover faster (or continuous deathtouch tokens if you aren't the monarch), and she doesn't have blue or green so MLD really helps her stay relevant.
The card alone doesn't cycle endlessly. User's point is that it's "too easy" because cards like Relic of Progenitus, Grim Lavamancer (a powerful modern card), or Scrabbling Claws exist. What's worse is that there are almost no cards to stop you from exiling your graveyard or casting cards from exile (I'm sure one or two do it as a side effect? Exiling facedown would work at the very least). Exiling cards in the graveyard is supposed to be how you prevent them from affecting the game further; this mechanic would require its own set of hate cards ("players can't cast spells from exile" or "turn all cards in exile facedown") in order to stop it from being overpowered, at which point exile has become just another graveyard.
EDIT: Also the basic effect for Wait for Reinforcements is undercosted compared to Safe Passage even without considering the soldier tokens or the reverse-flashback mechanic.
And, if you're wondering why Runic Repetition is okay while this isn't, it's because there aren't a whole lot of flashback cards that return instants/sorceries from your graveyard (most of them would need an intermediary creature like Unburial Rites with a Mnemonic Wall) and because Runic Repetition itself has no way to come back from exile, so the cycle can still be disrupted there. There are a staggering number of cards that could exile the reverse flashback cards for you for a second go, so your cycle couldn't easily or reasonably be stopped.
The main criteria in multiplayer for me is instant-speed, which is why I like act of aggression over others. It's very nice to be able to block that 7/7 deathtouch with your opponent's 50/50 counter monster.
Beyond that, versatility is the main criteria. Hijack is the same 3 cmc as Threaten, but it can grab artifacts too. I would not pay more than 3 for one of these effects unless it is instant-speed or can grab noncreature permanents.
Erm... I would hope that the table would figure out if it's okay before the game starts. Having them toss out their commander halfway through is a bit cruel, to say the least. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're saying here?
Generally speaking, though, I think it's reasonable to target the better player to *some* extent.
Relating to plushpenguin's comment, I also wish people would be much more mindful of card advantage and deck type rather than just board state. I know a guy who likes control-combo Sharuum, and I hate playing in any game with him that contains new or inexperienced players because they always target the one with the more dangerous board state (me) and let him combo off because they don't know Sharuum well enough. Now there's something to be said for appearing non-threatening, but certain archetypes (poor, poor aggro) are much worse at this than, say, control, and when a new player ignores the control player's hand size and targets me then there's no way I can win.
Honestly any of them would be okay in my book as long as they didn't turn out to be abusive (Oversoul of Dusk would also be a bit mean-spirited since it's extremely uninteractive unless you happen to be playing one of two colors... and because it's a spirit haha get it?-I'll stop now)
Queen Marchesa works; she doesn't always produce tokens, but the card advantage is pretty good if she doesn't. Plus these colors have access to just about every card relevant to tokens that isn't green.
And for the 10 super-hybrid spirit avatars from Llorwyn; Godhead of Awe and such.
I'm honestly not really opposed to any of them being played casually, since none of them are more overpowered than, say, Leovold, and they all feel 'legendary'. The only question then is "where do we draw the line"?
Keria's first ability might be a bit strong; it's hard to tell. I would remove haste and vigilance from her second ability and add lifelink to better fit her colors (Hexproof and Trample for green, Lifelink and Deathtouch for black). I would also stick to 2/2 black zombie tokens since those are the 'standard' for zombies. Either make it cost 2(B/G) for 2 zombies, or tone it down to 1 zombie at (B/G). I realize that she wants as many tokens as possible for as cheap as possible, but IMO commanders shouldn't synergize 100% perfectly with themselves - that's what the other 99 cards are for.
I really feel like Y'ton should cost 1WG at least. Indestructible is quite strong on a commander with a very powerful effect like that (it wouldn't be that crazy except that it triggers off of opponents' creatures and, as mentioned, you can potentially make as many copies as you have mana for). Goes infinite with Concordant Crossroads and Llanowar Druid (or Thousand-Year Elixir and any creature with the requisite mana cost that can produce at least 2 mana); you might want to make it "Whenever another nontoken creature with converted mana cost two or less enters the battlefield you may pay 1(G/W) any number of times. If you do, create a copy of that creature for each time you payed that cost." to prevent those combos and make the fact that it can create multiple copies more intuitive (if that is, in fact, the intent).
Jerra goes infinite with all sorts of stuff. She also feels very awkward in UG since, by default, you'll be getting the mana during the combat phase when you attack which feels more RG. Conceptually she's pretty reasonable other than the infinites.