I continue to dislike Jeffe's softclaim. I will not press it any further.
Quote from "Ande" »
Well, he could accomplish any number of things. If the other two are actually town, he could be hoping that either they die and give him some clearance, or he dies and incriminates them. Or if one is scum, and one is town, one dies and does the same thing, clears or incriminates another. Or, if both are scum, he's hoping that the town wouldn't be thinking that he would be foolish enough to tie 3 scums together in the first post of the game. This line of thinking is entirely WIFOM, and I have no idea why you think it's relevant. Seriously, assume for a second a situation where Cubus did die and came up scum. What would you think ZDS' and Zas' alignments are? Or assume ZDS and Zas both died and came up scum. What is Cubus's alignment now? Or perhaps if they're both town? There is no way to determine them with any degree of certainty.
Or, of course, Cubus could be town, which is a very likely possibility.
Kay....
well that's what I was saying. Even if it is a contradiction it's highly irrelevant since it says nothing about alignment.
Quote from "Ande" »
I'm sure the scum didn't. They don't want to be caught killing a townie day 1. Or maybe the townies decided to stay off, correctly realizing that I'm a townie.
This statement rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from "ZDS" »
1) His anchoring to an easy case (Jerubbaal)
2) His slow-rolling of his stance in the Cubus/Andelijah affair (starts with saying he's interested in #47, then the PBPA, then some non-commital comments about how they are both scummy on their own rights, and still no ****ing vote or fos)
3) His trying too hard to look useful when he's actually not.
4) His dismissive attitude.
Seriously, the concentration of scum-tells in there is so high it's freaking me out.
First of all, ZDS's post looks like searching town imo.
Secondly, ZDS, could you point out to me where you thought he had a dismissive attitude?
I'm unsure of how easy a case jerrubal is/was, but I slightly agree with you there.
I agree with your second point.
I'm kind of neutral on the third.
I may actually move to Xyre, just for the second point. I will decide after I finish this post.
I'm highly disinterested in the Ande Vs whover thing atm. (RE:wagon)
Post 140 by Xyre is kind of meh as well. Xyre, I doubt I was barning you, since I initiated most of that attack I believe.
Quote from "Xyre" »
They're scummy, but they're townies. You yourself established that andelijah's probably a townie stuck in a bad argument in 69. Hypocrite?
This implies that you thought they were scummy, aka you believed them to likely be scum. You then declared they were probably townies. This looks like you attempted to backtrack on your own arguments, in a way to make them both appear to be correct. In other words, you forgot your own opinions of them. FoS:Xyre
Raf's post 143 has me wavering slightly on ZDS. Protown points for him.
Quote from "Raf" »
You seem to be defending people without good reasons to do so, which generally suggest inside knowledge on day 1.
I did the same thing, btw.
I dislike Xyre demanding ZDS do a PBPA of him in post 147. unvote, vote:Xyre
To go back to ZDS's post with the four points. Two is most notably the best reason on Xyre, especially after players have mentioned that "scum will sit back and let the townies fight it out". With Xyre posting on how the argument went, but not commenting on it, thats exactly what was happening.
I <3 Ande's post 155. [bender]Now that. Is. Ironyyyyyy[/bender]
Jerub's post 154 and 152 looks like he's attempting to simply dismiss ZDS entirely. I especially dislike the "I doubt you can play this game well." All he's doing is attempting to make ZDS look like an incompetent person who can barely form a sentence, much less a case. I exaggerate a little, but I still get bad vibes from it.
Quote from "Jerrub" »
Well, at least he's consistent. Another attack is met with verbal violence, hostility, and a noticeable lack of content. I like my "More-Perfecter-Than-Thou" arrogance a lot better than your blustering bullying.
To be completely clear, RafK criticized you for leading the conversation away from Cubus/andelijah toward your suspects, ZasZ and Xyre. Then, as soon as RafK makes a comment on ande, you accuse him of leading the conversation away from the debate you've started. Complete double-standard.
Now this is truly ironic. A post with a noticeable lack of content, criticizing a noteable lack of content.
I kind of feel like Xyre and Jerrub are scum together. I would have to know Jerrub's mafia experience before I went any further on it.
RE:Ande and Cubus-I feel.... that they are indeed both townies. I am unsure of Ande still, but him pointing out everything which I had been trying to say makes me feel like he was partially unsure what I was arguing against. If Ande's mafia experience is what I think it is (small) I would say he's probably town.
I still think that the case against Cubus was crap, and the things I've seen from him make me think he's town.
I dislike Zasz demanding ZDS to PBPA xyre. It feels like a veiled deflection of everything against Xyre, that if it doesn't have a PBPA it's useless. Mild FoS:Zasz
I'll attempt to post stuff soon. Sorry guys, but I got some kind of viral sore throat thing yesterday. = ( I'll try to pull myself away from the couch and my wiiiii(with fire emblem) with some significant time to post stuff.
Quote from "Alx" »
- He pushes suspicions and pseudo-suspicions toward a lot of people, never really committing to a course of action.
- Almost in every single post when he's attacking someone, he's also mentioning someone else, as a sort of backup target. See posts 56, 81, 98, 106, 129 for examples of multiple targeting.
First of all, I'm pretty sure I committed to all my courses of action, as the only person I've found really scummy so far was Jerrub. I also defended Cubus from what I percieved as a poor attack from Ande, but I'm unsure what that says about Ande's alignment, or if I'm just biased at the moment from arguing.
By "multi attacking" do you mean me responding to every post I deemed significant? Does that draw away from my points anymore? If so how does this actually point at me being scum? Do you think that I've been "all over the place" or attacking everyone, because as far as I remember I've only attacked two or three people, correct me if I'm wrong though.
I'll attempt to post stuff soon. Sorry guys, but I got some kind of viral sore throat thing yesterday. = ( I'll try to pull myself away from the couch and my wiiiii(with fire emblem) with some significant time to post stuff.
Quote from "Alx" »
- He pushes suspicions and pseudo-suspicions toward a lot of people, never really committing to a course of action.
- Almost in every single post when he's attacking someone, he's also mentioning someone else, as a sort of backup target. See posts 56, 81, 98, 106, 129 for examples of multiple targeting.
I disagree with the "trying to easily vote someone else" part. I don't think Jerub was looking for an easy vote.
I mean, there are two possibilities :
1) He's saying the truth about his only experience with fake daykills being when a scum did it and caused a fatal information overflow. In this case, his vote can't be more justified.
2) He's lying about his level of experience on the subject. In which case, why the hell bother ? It's not like inexperience is a townie tell, and I don't think he could just have "snapped" or something, either.
Well, he'd actually be lying about experience to not only press an attack by using an example he had no idea if it was true or not, he'd also be using it as a defense. So the question of his inexperience is actually a very important one.
Quote from "Jerrub" »
Just to clarify, it was an SK, and yes, I did think it spoiled the game after it happened.
I respectfully disagree. Fake daykills do not "spoil a game". FoS:J-effe for his soft claim.
Quote from "Ande" »
Right, but its not scummy unless you're trying to use those words against the person.
How are you not attacking Cubus based off of this?
Quote from "Ande" »
Why does ZDS's or Zas' alignment matter? At all? Cubus called their roleplaying townish, and has yet to explain what about their roleplaying makes it different from other roleplaying. That's a contradiction independent of ZDS' and Zas' alignment.
Kay, so how does that tell you anything about his alignment. That it's a "contradiction". Ok. What's he contradicting? Why is he contradicting? It's not a question depending on ZDS's alignment, it's a question on what you are trying to find out and draw conclusions based off on Cubus's alignment.
By Cubus calling someone Townish, what would he accomplish as scum with that? Why is this an indicator that he is scum? You have done nothing to convince me, and it feels more like you are just pressing an attack to press an attack.
ZDS, how is RafK scum again?
Quote from "Bert" »
I'm still guessing what you mean, but if I understand correctly, I was agreeing with part of what ZDS said (that the PBPA reeked of "look at me, i'm useful", except that I cane to a different conclusion.
I also don't see how I "attacked" him, but I guess in a game like this it just means "answer" or "comment".
Ok, to clarify, it's just more of a hunch. I thought it was weird that it was almost the exact wording of ZDS's statement, and figured that it is possible it was intentional. If it was intentional you'd have done it for two reasons.
A.To be sarcastic, and actually agree with ZDS
or
B.To subtly belittle ZDS's arguments.
Of course this is very conditional, which is why it's a slight FoS.
ZDS, so why do you think Xyre is oh em gee teh scum? Other than the possibility that him summing up an argument could be a way to look active? Is that pretty much it?
If that's because you're saying I contradicted myself (which it what it looks like you're trying to say to me), I didn't...
If I misunderstood you, please explain..
Well I couldn't decide if you were making a joke by completely contradicting ZDS. If you were serious, thats a slight FoS, because I think it's too much of a coincedence you used his exact wording, except to support him instead of to attack him.
In other words, I don't like the possible subtlety of disparaging ZDS's comments.
Quote from "Ande" »
I don't get your question. It is WIFOM for me to try to assume the alignments even if I were 100% positive Cubus was scum. But it's even worse for me to do it without knowledge of Cubus' alignment. The statement is a no tell against ZDS and Zas.
Kay, well what conclusions do you draw from it from Cubus? That he knows too much? That he's buddying up to townies? That he's boosting scumbuddies? I don't understand how you make the link of him being scum, other than you're just arguing he's "made a contradiction"
if you can't make a logical conclusion or form a hypothesis that connects it, it seems kind of silly to press the point.
Ande, like I said, you speak in absolutes too much. I'm trying to done down defense on Cubus, but I really don't like this attack.
I repeat since you seem to have ignored this from me. You speak in absolutes too much
Quote from "ZDS" »
I don't, but I strongly disagree that it was scummy. Also, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the justification you FoSed him for, quite the contrary
ZDS did you see my post talking about Jerrub's original post from the daykill? What do you think of the last sentence?
Actually, Unvote, Vote : Xyre. This pseudo-analysis reeks of "w00t ! I'm doing something useful ! I'm so townish !".
Quote from "Bert" »
Silly? Unproductive? Harmful? That may be debatable. Odd? Certainly not. That happens all the time..
Xyre's PBPA seemed accurate enough, so even though it may reek of "Look at me, I'm useful", it seems honest enough. Xyre's trying hard to be useful. Points for that
Why don't you look at what I'm saying? Do you not see the contradiction in what Cubus is saying?
I'm pretty sure Cubus has explained pretty nicely it's not a contradiction. It looks like you're mischaracterizing something that could possibly be misleading to be a pointless contradiction.
Quote from "Ande" »
Why do I have to relate this to their alignment before suspecting Cubus? The other two's alignments from that statement are WIFOM, I'll wait for them to say more before deciding on them. It's early in the game yet.
Then what does it have to do with Cubus? What is the point of his contradiction if it speaks nothing for alignment?
Quote from "ZDS" »
Usually ? If it's "usual", then you should be able to prove it. Come on, do it. You wouldn't want to prove Jerub right, would you ?
By the way, quoting some guy saying the same thing as you are (I'm sure some philosophers and thinkers did) does not a proof constitute.
Go Go A modest proposal!
Quote from "Ande" »
My mischaracterization was a mistake, I was trying to understand Cubus' point of view. It would have made sense to me if Cubus just though roleplaying in general was townish. The fact that he doesn't, but still gets townish impressions from people who roleplay just confuses me.
You speak in absolutes to much. I find that scummy in this case.
Quote from "Ande" »
However, it's page 3, I don't expect there to be anything any more condemning. More arguments, or a new target, will come in time.
What about the reactions to the "daykill"?
Bert, if ZDS gets rid of you, I appreciate sarcasm.
On to Jerub.
[quote="Jerub's post"]Whether this is a joke or not, I am having a difficult time seeing how this is a pro-town move. I actually saw it once in a game on MS, and I think it was the serial killer. This move confuses the hell out of me.
Hey all, there will be no flavor forthcoming from me. I don't even do smileys. I might actually vote for overdoing the flavor if I didn't think there was actually something to go on at this point. It's certainly not a strong tell or anything, but scum are quite often deliberately chatty at the beginning of the game. This Xyre thing is really fishy and, in any way you cut it, stupid. [/qupte]
Kay. Now look at this, this is terribly vague, and can go either way for Xyre to be suspicious.
Also your padding is just crap. By padding, I mean second paragraph.
Finally, the bolded sentence is why I believe you thought it was a real daykill. Why would faking a daykill be stupid? It could incite discussion. It could draw someone out trying to easily vote someone else, like you.
Yeah, when I joined on MS, I tried to read a bunch of games to figure out how stuff worked. One game, the guy who turned out to be the SK did what Xyre did here, post a fake daykill (the poster's name was Oman, don't remember what the thread was, somewhere in mini-normal, just in case anyone really feels the need to verify this whole thing). I was not involved in the game at all, just reading it after-the-fact, so of course I had all the info. When Oman did it, it wasn't so much as a joke as a really asinine way to confuse people and try to get someone to make a mistake.
You imply here you knew it was faked. I have a hard time buying that.
I dislike Alx's Cubus vote.
Quote from "Ande" »
Not wording your opinions very well, which means they weren't good opinions to begin with. Needing help to explain your thoughts is rarely good.
Kay, this guy is scummier than Jerubbal. I'm unsure how many votes he has atm, so I'm going to abstain from voting, but just because someone hasn't worded their opinions well doesn't mean they "were'nt good opinions to begin with". Some things are just hard to explain. If you're scum, die, if you're town, look at your arguments and think about what you're saying. How are you relating this to alignment? That the two he declared town are both his scum buddies? That he's arbitrarily buddying up to two players?
Kay....
well that's what I was saying. Even if it is a contradiction it's highly irrelevant since it says nothing about alignment.
This statement rubs me the wrong way.
First of all, ZDS's post looks like searching town imo.
Secondly, ZDS, could you point out to me where you thought he had a dismissive attitude?
I'm unsure of how easy a case jerrubal is/was, but I slightly agree with you there.
I agree with your second point.
I'm kind of neutral on the third.
I may actually move to Xyre, just for the second point. I will decide after I finish this post.
I'm highly disinterested in the Ande Vs whover thing atm. (RE:wagon)
Post 140 by Xyre is kind of meh as well. Xyre, I doubt I was barning you, since I initiated most of that attack I believe.
This implies that you thought they were scummy, aka you believed them to likely be scum. You then declared they were probably townies. This looks like you attempted to backtrack on your own arguments, in a way to make them both appear to be correct. In other words, you forgot your own opinions of them. FoS:Xyre
Raf's post 143 has me wavering slightly on ZDS. Protown points for him.
I did the same thing, btw.
I dislike Xyre demanding ZDS do a PBPA of him in post 147. unvote, vote:Xyre
To go back to ZDS's post with the four points. Two is most notably the best reason on Xyre, especially after players have mentioned that "scum will sit back and let the townies fight it out". With Xyre posting on how the argument went, but not commenting on it, thats exactly what was happening.
I <3 Ande's post 155. [bender]Now that. Is. Ironyyyyyy[/bender]
Jerub's post 154 and 152 looks like he's attempting to simply dismiss ZDS entirely. I especially dislike the "I doubt you can play this game well." All he's doing is attempting to make ZDS look like an incompetent person who can barely form a sentence, much less a case. I exaggerate a little, but I still get bad vibes from it.
Now this is truly ironic. A post with a noticeable lack of content, criticizing a noteable lack of content.
I kind of feel like Xyre and Jerrub are scum together. I would have to know Jerrub's mafia experience before I went any further on it.
RE:Ande and Cubus-I feel.... that they are indeed both townies. I am unsure of Ande still, but him pointing out everything which I had been trying to say makes me feel like he was partially unsure what I was arguing against. If Ande's mafia experience is what I think it is (small) I would say he's probably town.
I still think that the case against Cubus was crap, and the things I've seen from him make me think he's town.
I dislike Zasz demanding ZDS to PBPA xyre. It feels like a veiled deflection of everything against Xyre, that if it doesn't have a PBPA it's useless. Mild FoS:Zasz
List
Scum-Xyre, jerrubal
Neutral scum-Zasz
neutral-Giftrix, Bertrand, Jeffe, Alx2
neutral town-RafK, ZDS
Town-Cubus, Ande
First of all, I'm pretty sure I committed to all my courses of action, as the only person I've found really scummy so far was Jerrub. I also defended Cubus from what I percieved as a poor attack from Ande, but I'm unsure what that says about Ande's alignment, or if I'm just biased at the moment from arguing.
By "multi attacking" do you mean me responding to every post I deemed significant? Does that draw away from my points anymore? If so how does this actually point at me being scum? Do you think that I've been "all over the place" or attacking everyone, because as far as I remember I've only attacked two or three people, correct me if I'm wrong though.
I mean, there are two possibilities :
1) He's saying the truth about his only experience with fake daykills being when a scum did it and caused a fatal information overflow. In this case, his vote can't be more justified.
2) He's lying about his level of experience on the subject. In which case, why the hell bother ? It's not like inexperience is a townie tell, and I don't think he could just have "snapped" or something, either.
Well, he'd actually be lying about experience to not only press an attack by using an example he had no idea if it was true or not, he'd also be using it as a defense. So the question of his inexperience is actually a very important one.
Just to clarify, it was an SK, and yes, I did think it spoiled the game after it happened.
I respectfully disagree. Fake daykills do not "spoil a game".
FoS:J-effe for his soft claim.
Right, but its not scummy unless you're trying to use those words against the person.
How are you not attacking Cubus based off of this?
Why does ZDS's or Zas' alignment matter? At all? Cubus called their roleplaying townish, and has yet to explain what about their roleplaying makes it different from other roleplaying. That's a contradiction independent of ZDS' and Zas' alignment.
Kay, so how does that tell you anything about his alignment. That it's a "contradiction". Ok. What's he contradicting? Why is he contradicting? It's not a question depending on ZDS's alignment, it's a question on what you are trying to find out and draw conclusions based off on Cubus's alignment.
By Cubus calling someone Townish, what would he accomplish as scum with that? Why is this an indicator that he is scum? You have done nothing to convince me, and it feels more like you are just pressing an attack to press an attack.
ZDS, how is RafK scum again?
I'm still guessing what you mean, but if I understand correctly, I was agreeing with part of what ZDS said (that the PBPA reeked of "look at me, i'm useful", except that I cane to a different conclusion.
I also don't see how I "attacked" him, but I guess in a game like this it just means "answer" or "comment".
Ok, to clarify, it's just more of a hunch. I thought it was weird that it was almost the exact wording of ZDS's statement, and figured that it is possible it was intentional. If it was intentional you'd have done it for two reasons.
A.To be sarcastic, and actually agree with ZDS
or
B.To subtly belittle ZDS's arguments.
Of course this is very conditional, which is why it's a slight FoS.
ZDS, so why do you think Xyre is oh em gee teh scum? Other than the possibility that him summing up an argument could be a way to look active? Is that pretty much it?
If I misunderstood you, please explain..
Well I couldn't decide if you were making a joke by completely contradicting ZDS. If you were serious, thats a slight FoS, because I think it's too much of a coincedence you used his exact wording, except to support him instead of to attack him.
In other words, I don't like the possible subtlety of disparaging ZDS's comments.
I don't get your question. It is WIFOM for me to try to assume the alignments even if I were 100% positive Cubus was scum. But it's even worse for me to do it without knowledge of Cubus' alignment. The statement is a no tell against ZDS and Zas.
Kay, well what conclusions do you draw from it from Cubus? That he knows too much? That he's buddying up to townies? That he's boosting scumbuddies? I don't understand how you make the link of him being scum, other than you're just arguing he's "made a contradiction"
if you can't make a logical conclusion or form a hypothesis that connects it, it seems kind of silly to press the point.
Ande, like I said, you speak in absolutes too much. I'm trying to done down defense on Cubus, but I really don't like this attack.
I repeat since you seem to have ignored this from me. You speak in absolutes too much
I don't, but I strongly disagree that it was scummy. Also, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the justification you FoSed him for, quite the contrary
ZDS did you see my post talking about Jerrub's original post from the daykill? What do you think of the last sentence?
Next:Bright Eyes-At the bottom of everything
Silly? Unproductive? Harmful? That may be debatable. Odd? Certainly not. That happens all the time..
Xyre's PBPA seemed accurate enough, so even though it may reek of "Look at me, I'm useful", it seems honest enough. Xyre's trying hard to be useful. Points for that
...Slight FoS:Bert
I'm pretty sure Cubus has explained pretty nicely it's not a contradiction. It looks like you're mischaracterizing something that could possibly be misleading to be a pointless contradiction.
Why do I have to relate this to their alignment before suspecting Cubus? The other two's alignments from that statement are WIFOM, I'll wait for them to say more before deciding on them. It's early in the game yet.
Then what does it have to do with Cubus? What is the point of his contradiction if it speaks nothing for alignment?
Usually ? If it's "usual", then you should be able to prove it. Come on, do it. You wouldn't want to prove Jerub right, would you ?
By the way, quoting some guy saying the same thing as you are (I'm sure some philosophers and thinkers did) does not a proof constitute.
Go Go A modest proposal!
My mischaracterization was a mistake, I was trying to understand Cubus' point of view. It would have made sense to me if Cubus just though roleplaying in general was townish. The fact that he doesn't, but still gets townish impressions from people who roleplay just confuses me.
You speak in absolutes to much. I find that scummy in this case.
However, it's page 3, I don't expect there to be anything any more condemning. More arguments, or a new target, will come in time.
What about the reactions to the "daykill"?
Bert, if ZDS gets rid of you, I appreciate sarcasm.
On to Jerub.
[quote="Jerub's post"]Whether this is a joke or not, I am having a difficult time seeing how this is a pro-town move. I actually saw it once in a game on MS, and I think it was the serial killer. This move confuses the hell out of me.
Hey all, there will be no flavor forthcoming from me. I don't even do smileys. I might actually vote for overdoing the flavor if I didn't think there was actually something to go on at this point. It's certainly not a strong tell or anything, but scum are quite often deliberately chatty at the beginning of the game. This Xyre thing is really fishy and, in any way you cut it, stupid.
[/qupte]
Kay. Now look at this, this is terribly vague, and can go either way for Xyre to be suspicious.
Also your padding is just crap. By padding, I mean second paragraph.
Finally, the bolded sentence is why I believe you thought it was a real daykill. Why would faking a daykill be stupid? It could incite discussion. It could draw someone out trying to easily vote someone else, like you.
You imply here you knew it was faked. I have a hard time buying that.
I dislike Alx's Cubus vote.
Kay, this guy is scummier than Jerubbal. I'm unsure how many votes he has atm, so I'm going to abstain from voting, but just because someone hasn't worded their opinions well doesn't mean they "were'nt good opinions to begin with". Some things are just hard to explain. If you're scum, die, if you're town, look at your arguments and think about what you're saying. How are you relating this to alignment? That the two he declared town are both his scum buddies? That he's arbitrarily buddying up to two players?
It's not logical, it's a gut feeling. What do you think he meant by "vibes"?