sub damnation for mutilate
sub hymn to tourach for distress
sub infest for decree of pain
sub 1 swamp for urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
sub 1 chainer's edict for graveshell scrab
of course there are plenty of changes that would be fit in to handle the threshold/goblin rush. decree of pain seems painfully slow versus both decks.
Yes, but the forests are making my eyes twitch.
I mean a complete overhaul. And the realization that straight control may not be viable.
Oh, and I've heard that the traditional Top 3 may change from Goblins, Tresh, Solidarity to Goblins, CounterSliver, and IGGy Pop/TES. Two tribal decks...Engineered Plague anyone? Of course, instead of dealing with Solidarity pulling wins out of its rear, we have to deal with a deck that wins several turns earlier.
Hmm Cabal Chan it looks like there are some votes for Helldozer as a finisher. If you like Jack Elgin's deck construction, check out the deck he built to win the Richmond Extended PTQ based on 'Dozer:
Of course the deck would have to be faster for legacy but I think the basis for some good ideas can be had. I'm not saying Helldozer is the best choice necessarily, however he is constructed worthy in the " right " type of deck.
I was never against the inclusion of Helldozer. There are, how ever, two things that make me slightly wary: 1) You run board sweepers, and he's a creature that will get swept up. People will scream anti-synnergy. 2) People run Pithing Needle, and Helldozer, I believe, can be Needled. Of course, that doesn't save them from getting their face smashed in, so point two may be somewhat irrelevant.
That deck is fine, expected it runs Forests. Now, I'm guilty of considering splashing another color, but that's been convered already, so it would be unoriginal to a large extent. Plus MBC was my first true Legacy deck, so it holds that special place in my heart, above the Slivers and Elves of course.
Elgin's build is a good frame to work off of, but I'm feeling the need to re-design the deck from scratch. Sticking to the frame is a bit limiting.
If we choose creatures to speed up our clock, then we'll have to cut back on the board clearers we run. Unless we stick Kokusho in there, the card I mean.
(Future Sight card: Avatar of Kokusho. CMC: 5Black, creature type: MBC Player, Rules Text: If you control a Coffers, you may play this card without paying its mana cost. Tap: Search you library for a black card and reveal it. You may play it without paying it's mana cost. 4Black, Tap: Destroy target non-basic land. If that land is an Island, that player looses two life, and you many untap Avatar of Kokusho :p, Flavor Text: "I told you I'd ban the island.")
I didn't think Nantuko Shade was a bad idea. It can be a very fast clock. Of course, the problem is most of the creatures we could run can be Needled. Cept for Magus. That might not a bad idea. He is a 4/4.
I guess I'll shove my way into this discussion, mainly because I love to play the archetype and consider myself a fairly good player of it.
Infest is, quite simply, a Wrath of God tuned to Goblins. This is essential, as it will be turn 3 when you play it, and if you can't put a chokehold on Goblins by turn three, on their turn four you are going to be facing lethal Piledriver-driven damage. This is obviously unacceptable, so we run Infests.
Infest is almost useless outside of the Goblin matchup, though. Hear me out here: Name some commonly played creatures of the format; stuff we are likely to face. Mongoose? By the time you can play Infest, it's too big to be affected. Werebear is the same. Exalted Angel? Ha. Sure, we can kill Meddling Mages with it, that is, if the Mage hasn't banned Infest...9-Land's guys have access to pump spells to help them live, Aggro-Sur's guys are fairly decent sized as well, and Mystic Enforcer isn't dying to it either. This is why i strongly suggest a mixture of the two. I have always used multiple copies, in small numbers, of different kill spells. One reason is to get around Meddling Mage, but the other is versatility in how I can deal with creature-based threats. Damnation is superior to Mutilate, as much as I love Mutilate. So I'm not trying to convince you that either is superior- that all depends on what's on the other side of the table.
That does make very good sense. I'm all for running Infest and another board sweeper (Damnnation), the only problem is combo. Solidarity, IGGy-Pop, TES, they run no creatures (barring Empty the Warrens), leaving creature kill cards dead. Sure, we have discard, but like it has been mentioned, with no quick clock to take advantage of it, they can rebuild their hand and win. Unless you Haunting Echoes them. Maybe that's the way we can finally kill combo? (Oh, and kudos to the April Fool's board Kokusho! I loved it ^_^). Oh, would Mindslaver be any good against combo? I see it like this: Hey kids, always wanted to try your hand at combo? Now you can! Target your opponent and control their next turn? Always want to see how Solidarity worked, now you can! It doesn't matter if you know how to play the deck, simply waste all their spells and leave them crying. Or, if you know how to run the deck, combo off and target yourself (The Solidarity player, of course) and mill their library, then have them Stroke themselves for your win!
If you don't like Edict types, go for another versatile card- Funeral Charm. It's an instant, it kills off Lackey, and can be used for end of draw step tricks that make opponents curse at you under their breath. I do NOT advocate the usage of Darkblast, as decks such as there are light on win conditions, and we have very little graveyard recursion.
Edicts really are an essential part of the deck. Funeral Charm is nifty in that it can kill an X/1, but the discard part is really ineffective. Duress lets you choose, and Hymn is a two for one. Unless it's dual use is really good enough to warrant inclusion.
Speaking of which, Planar Chaos has a card in it that I REALLY like for black control. Shrouded Lore is virtually guaranteed recursion of whatever we want from our yards, due to the large manabase.
I like that card. Allows you to reuse cards. Recur answers. That is going to go into my new build once I get around to it (unless someone beats me to it, which is very likely at this point )
As for reanimator, if you lose to that, I feel sorry for you. Akroma's not pro-Staff of Domination, and tapping her down until you can kill her is simplicity. Sideboarded Leyline of the Void usually makes them incredibly sad.
On Oblivion Stone: It's necessary. In monoblack, you must rely on artifacts to destroy stuff that isn't creatures. Nevinyrral's Disk is just not as good here. Besides, a lot of players will needle what's annoyed them (Staff) rather than what kills the Needle (Stone) until they realize their mistake. Unless you want to scoop to Solitary Confinement, play the Stone.
Stone's usefulness isn't being denied. It's how vulnerable it is *cough* Needle *cough* that needs to be dealt with.
Discard suite: What monoblack deck is complete without hand hate? Obviously, we want Hymn to Tourach. You will note that for now, I'm opening up Duress to debate. Against aggro, Duress sucks. Plain and simple. Against combo, it's essential. Haunting Echoes is the finisher for these discard spells, permanently getting rid of stuff that annoys you.
You may wish to add some Consume Spirits to that list of yours- it's far better than Drain Life, and if you include Corrupt, I may have to hurt you.:D Corrupt is good in only ONE instance: if you use Mirari. We don't need a five-mana artifact cluttering up the list, so Corrupt is officially labelled EW in my Great Book of No-Nos.
Maybe running something that applies pressure a little bit faster than a huge Consume is in order. The problem with that is if we run creatures, it's a little anti-synnergystic. But then we're playing Swamps anyway. Who cares if the minions die, as long as we win! (Oops, I spilt some of my secret tech.)
why not run Infests in the board for those matchups?
The debate is whether or not you want to wait an extra to cast a Wrath like effect against an aggro deck. Normally, aggro decks feature creatures that have a tougness of two or lower. Giving any aggro deck an extra turn to beat face is a bad thing. (Infest is playable turn three, Damnations turn four). Of course, if someone can provide evidence that having Damnation main is better then Infest main, theory or result wise, I will concede this debate.
Smother vs. D-Edict/Blood: Interesting. Yet, Nimble Mongoose still kills this deck if D. Edict gets removed. As with my Chains deck, which uses Island Sanctuary to deal with creatures alongside Damnation, targeted removal isnt all that great, honestly...Besides, you dont REALLY want to lose to Reanimator, do you?
Innocent Blood is there to give MBC an on the draw answer to Lackey, which seems to be a biggy: Can your deck handle a turn one Lackey? If not, go cry in a corner.
Smother was brought up as a: Target a creature you really want to kill. I just thought I'd mention it. I wasn't aware that Reanimator was really played. Diabolic can replaced Blood, but then you have the Lackey issue.
Oblivion Stone, as it is being pointed out, is a bit slow for creature removal. I believed it was included to help the deck deal with artifacts and enchantmetns, but since its the only card capable of doing that, it's a prime Needle target.
Something I've drawn flak from at the Source, and will probably do so here, is including Infest main instead of Damnation or Mutilate. Yes, I know it's not a one deck metagame, and yes I know it's poor against Thresh later on, and against anything with a toughness greater than two. But my argument is against an aggro deck, Goblins, white weenie, etc... You do not want to wait an extra turn to cast a Wrath effect. Giving an aggro deck an entire turn to beat face is generally a bad idea, unless that idea is obsolete.
Smother has also been brought up to replace Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood.
Jack Elgin's article at SCG. And something of an ironic twist, the MBC thread at the Source is receiving quite a bit of flak over its poor MU against Solidarity (confirmed) and it's supposed poor MU against Goblins (which I have not yet confirmed). This has led me to believe the best route to take, color spashing aside, is the abandonment of Elgin's MBC shell and to redesign the deck from the ground up.
Once I have free time again, I'll work on getting a large, comprehensive primer done. Unfortunately, that won't be for 10-11 weeks. I'm certain we'll have a solid list in that time .
Experience has told me that Thresh isn't a freeby. Unless you get a Haunting Echoes to resolve, they'll use their cantrips to find new threats. Their counters do interfere. Needles and Mages are also a royal pain. They only need to get one creature down to win.
Edit: What is the general consensus on adding fetchlands? Is thinning the deck worth loosing the overall swamp count, and would the extra loss of life be worth be tolerable?
The problem with things like Helldozer is their CMC. It's quite high, and by the time you have that mana, the match may very well have been decided. I'm not denying it's strength (it will make Thresh cry, and probably make Solidarity wince if you get it out early enough), but you'll need to get it out early.
Possibly janky but out of nowhere idea: Words of Waste. In theory, if it works the way I think it does (no "only anytime you could play a sorcery" junk) this could be a powerful way to make an opponent ditch his hand right before the kill...
I am certain that it works as any time. That, plus Staff, is a pretty good lock. Of course, if they draw an instant, they can play it in response.
@ Avatar of Kokusho
I don't think there really is any other list for MBC at the moment. I was comtemplating a red splash not for a B/r Sui, but for a MBrC control, with Burning Wish. Though I'd love to see alternate ideas. I really do love the idea of Gladiator. It does indeed lessen the impact of dead cards in a match up. There are a few things that might be potential problems. The first is the one toughness. While you can recur it, the toughness makes it very easy to be disposed of. I don't know if that's much of an issue. The second is that the ability can be Needled, and there are few ways to deal with that. The third is(are) forms of graveyard hate. But it is definitely worth consideration. As for Blood vs. Edict, I guess that's a meta call.
@pooispoois
Betrayal is a good idea. If you can tutor it, it's a multi-purpose Plague against anything running creatures. With Thresh, if they have Threshold, does it kill their creatures or do they live? Grim Tutor...I would test that. While you are loosing three life, think of it like this: Against aggro, the one mana less means you can cast it a turn earlier for an answer against a board of creatures. So...it would translate into life gained? You, theoretically, deal with aggro a full turn earlier (Grim: Turn three cast, turn four answer v. Diabolic: Turn four cast, turn five answer). I don't have a solid answer off hand. Against Burn it would be suicide. As for Cofferless MBC...if you add more non-basics, you have to worry about things like Wasteland. You could do a Coffer/Cofferless thing, by using Yawgmoth's Tomb to turn your non-basics into swamps to be used by Coffers, though that manabase would be a bit shakey. Right now I'm sticking to the Coffers.
Edit: Got beaten to the Urborg idea. Shrouded Lore is a neat idea.
Ah! My apologies! I forgot to include where I got it from. I'm terribly sorry. I'll remember that for the future. It came, the orignal list that is, from thestarcitygames database, and me and a friend tinkered with it. Of course, as luck has it, it appears that it is no longer in the database. However, the list was from Jack Elgin, hence the name 'Black Jack.' Again, my apologies.
As for Diabolic Edict: It was argued on the WotC boards that being able to deal with a turn one Lackey was more imporant than the instant speed removal.
As for Diabolic Tutor...replacing it may be good idea. It was in there to fetch needed cards, whatever was needed. Promise was oringinally Skeletal Scrying.
(If I do something unconventional, or miss a rule of courtesy, let me know. This is my first post, and I promise to learn these rules as fast as possible.)
This is a decklist I've made for MBC (Mono Black Control) in Legacy. It's a bit old, but perhaps it might be of some use in this discussion?
If card choices need to be explained, I'll add them as an edit.
Edit1: Deck Tag added. Card explanations will follow shortly.
Edit2: Card explanations.
Main: Chainer's Edict: Creature removal. While it isn't pin point, it gets around any 'cannot be targeted' shenanigans. It also has flashback which, while somewhat high, allows re-use, so it essential counts as 8 creature removal spells. Consume Spirit: Win condition. Not only do you lower their life total, you raise yours. Also, it can be pointed at a creature if you're in a pinch, and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, you can gain life equal to the X you pay, so you can gain, say, 5 life off a 1 toughness creature. Diabolic Tutor: A tutor. It allows you to search for what you need. Duress: Hand disruption. Yes, it's limited to non-land, non-creature, and against aggro decks, it will probably be sided out. But it is a good intelligence gathering card. Haunting Echoes: Removes the graveyard, along with a portion of their library. If this resolves against Thresh, it really hurts them. Hymn to Tourach: Card advantage and hand disruption. Infest: Tiny board sweeper. Works well against Goblins, and sometimes against Thresh early on.
[cardInnocent Blood[/card]: Creature removal. The symmetry doesn't matter that much, since you don't run any creatures. Oblivion Stone: Board clearer. Promise of Power: Card advantage and win condition. I'm not sure if it's more of a win more card. Staff of Domination: A sink for your mana. Multi-use card. Creature control(tap down), life gain, and card advantage. Cabal Coffers: You're playing MBC. This should be in there. Gives you access to lots of mana.
Swamp: MBC.
Yes, but the forests are making my eyes twitch.
I mean a complete overhaul. And the realization that straight control may not be viable.
Oh, and I've heard that the traditional Top 3 may change from Goblins, Tresh, Solidarity to Goblins, CounterSliver, and IGGy Pop/TES. Two tribal decks...Engineered Plague anyone? Of course, instead of dealing with Solidarity pulling wins out of its rear, we have to deal with a deck that wins several turns earlier.
I was never against the inclusion of Helldozer. There are, how ever, two things that make me slightly wary: 1) You run board sweepers, and he's a creature that will get swept up. People will scream anti-synnergy. 2) People run Pithing Needle, and Helldozer, I believe, can be Needled. Of course, that doesn't save them from getting their face smashed in, so point two may be somewhat irrelevant.
That deck is fine, expected it runs Forests. Now, I'm guilty of considering splashing another color, but that's been convered already, so it would be unoriginal to a large extent. Plus MBC was my first true Legacy deck, so it holds that special place in my heart, above the Slivers and Elves of course.
Elgin's build is a good frame to work off of, but I'm feeling the need to re-design the deck from scratch. Sticking to the frame is a bit limiting.
Magus of the Coffers would be run along side Cabal Coffers.
(Future Sight card: Avatar of Kokusho. CMC: 5Black, creature type: MBC Player, Rules Text: If you control a Coffers, you may play this card without paying its mana cost. Tap: Search you library for a black card and reveal it. You may play it without paying it's mana cost. 4Black, Tap: Destroy target non-basic land. If that land is an Island, that player looses two life, and you many untap Avatar of Kokusho :p, Flavor Text: "I told you I'd ban the island.")
I didn't think Nantuko Shade was a bad idea. It can be a very fast clock. Of course, the problem is most of the creatures we could run can be Needled. Cept for Magus. That might not a bad idea. He is a 4/4.
That does make very good sense. I'm all for running Infest and another board sweeper (Damnnation), the only problem is combo. Solidarity, IGGy-Pop, TES, they run no creatures (barring Empty the Warrens), leaving creature kill cards dead. Sure, we have discard, but like it has been mentioned, with no quick clock to take advantage of it, they can rebuild their hand and win. Unless you Haunting Echoes them. Maybe that's the way we can finally kill combo? (Oh, and kudos to the April Fool's board Kokusho! I loved it ^_^). Oh, would Mindslaver be any good against combo? I see it like this: Hey kids, always wanted to try your hand at combo? Now you can! Target your opponent and control their next turn? Always want to see how Solidarity worked, now you can! It doesn't matter if you know how to play the deck, simply waste all their spells and leave them crying. Or, if you know how to run the deck, combo off and target yourself (The Solidarity player, of course) and mill their library, then have them Stroke themselves for your win!
Edicts really are an essential part of the deck. Funeral Charm is nifty in that it can kill an X/1, but the discard part is really ineffective. Duress lets you choose, and Hymn is a two for one. Unless it's dual use is really good enough to warrant inclusion.
I like that card. Allows you to reuse cards. Recur answers. That is going to go into my new build once I get around to it (unless someone beats me to it, which is very likely at this point
Stone's usefulness isn't being denied. It's how vulnerable it is *cough* Needle *cough* that needs to be dealt with.
Maybe running something that applies pressure a little bit faster than a huge Consume is in order. The problem with that is if we run creatures, it's a little anti-synnergystic. But then we're playing Swamps anyway. Who cares if the minions die, as long as we win!
The debate is whether or not you want to wait an extra to cast a Wrath like effect against an aggro deck. Normally, aggro decks feature creatures that have a tougness of two or lower. Giving any aggro deck an extra turn to beat face is a bad thing. (Infest is playable turn three, Damnations turn four). Of course, if someone can provide evidence that having Damnation main is better then Infest main, theory or result wise, I will concede this debate.
Innocent Blood is there to give MBC an on the draw answer to Lackey, which seems to be a biggy: Can your deck handle a turn one Lackey? If not, go cry in a corner.
Smother was brought up as a: Target a creature you really want to kill. I just thought I'd mention it. I wasn't aware that Reanimator was really played. Diabolic can replaced Blood, but then you have the Lackey issue.
It's incredibly Needle vulnerable. That's another problem I've run into.
Something I've drawn flak from at the Source, and will probably do so here, is including Infest main instead of Damnation or Mutilate. Yes, I know it's not a one deck metagame, and yes I know it's poor against Thresh later on, and against anything with a toughness greater than two. But my argument is against an aggro deck, Goblins, white weenie, etc... You do not want to wait an extra turn to cast a Wrath effect. Giving an aggro deck an entire turn to beat face is generally a bad idea, unless that idea is obsolete.
Smother has also been brought up to replace Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10361.html
Jack Elgin's article at SCG. And something of an ironic twist, the MBC thread at the Source is receiving quite a bit of flak over its poor MU against Solidarity (confirmed) and it's supposed poor MU against Goblins (which I have not yet confirmed). This has led me to believe the best route to take, color spashing aside, is the abandonment of Elgin's MBC shell and to redesign the deck from the ground up.
Experience has told me that Thresh isn't a freeby. Unless you get a Haunting Echoes to resolve, they'll use their cantrips to find new threats. Their counters do interfere. Needles and Mages are also a royal pain. They only need to get one creature down to win.
Edit: What is the general consensus on adding fetchlands? Is thinning the deck worth loosing the overall swamp count, and would the extra loss of life be worth be tolerable?
Edit2: Any thoughts on Top in MBC?
I am certain that it works as any time. That, plus Staff, is a pretty good lock. Of course, if they draw an instant, they can play it in response.
I don't think there really is any other list for MBC at the moment.
@pooispoois
Betrayal is a good idea. If you can tutor it, it's a multi-purpose Plague against anything running creatures. With Thresh, if they have Threshold, does it kill their creatures or do they live? Grim Tutor...I would test that. While you are loosing three life, think of it like this: Against aggro, the one mana less means you can cast it a turn earlier for an answer against a board of creatures. So...it would translate into life gained? You, theoretically, deal with aggro a full turn earlier (Grim: Turn three cast, turn four answer v. Diabolic: Turn four cast, turn five answer). I don't have a solid answer off hand. Against Burn it would be suicide. As for Cofferless MBC...if you add more non-basics, you have to worry about things like Wasteland. You could do a Coffer/Cofferless thing, by using Yawgmoth's Tomb to turn your non-basics into swamps to be used by Coffers, though that manabase would be a bit shakey. Right now I'm sticking to the Coffers.
Edit: Got beaten to the Urborg idea. Shrouded Lore is a neat idea.
As for Diabolic Edict: It was argued on the WotC boards that being able to deal with a turn one Lackey was more imporant than the instant speed removal.
As for Diabolic Tutor...replacing it may be good idea. It was in there to fetch needed cards, whatever was needed. Promise was oringinally Skeletal Scrying.
No, you're not alone in playing MBC
This is a decklist I've made for MBC (Mono Black Control) in Legacy. It's a bit old, but perhaps it might be of some use in this discussion?
Main Deck
4 Chainer's Edict
4 Consume Spirit
3 Diabolic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Infest
4 Innocent Blood
3 Oblivion Stone
2 Promise of Power
3 Staff of Domination
4 Cabal Coffers
21 Swamp
3 Engineered Plague
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Damnation
2 Nightmare Void
2 Skeletal Scrying
4 Wrench Mind
If card choices need to be explained, I'll add them as an edit.
Edit1: Deck Tag added. Card explanations will follow shortly.
Edit2: Card explanations.
Main:
Chainer's Edict: Creature removal. While it isn't pin point, it gets around any 'cannot be targeted' shenanigans. It also has flashback which, while somewhat high, allows re-use, so it essential counts as 8 creature removal spells.
Consume Spirit: Win condition. Not only do you lower their life total, you raise yours. Also, it can be pointed at a creature if you're in a pinch, and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, you can gain life equal to the X you pay, so you can gain, say, 5 life off a 1 toughness creature.
Diabolic Tutor: A tutor. It allows you to search for what you need.
Duress: Hand disruption. Yes, it's limited to non-land, non-creature, and against aggro decks, it will probably be sided out. But it is a good intelligence gathering card.
Haunting Echoes: Removes the graveyard, along with a portion of their library. If this resolves against Thresh, it really hurts them.
Hymn to Tourach: Card advantage and hand disruption.
Infest: Tiny board sweeper. Works well against Goblins, and sometimes against Thresh early on.
[cardInnocent Blood[/card]: Creature removal. The symmetry doesn't matter that much, since you don't run any creatures.
Oblivion Stone: Board clearer.
Promise of Power: Card advantage and win condition. I'm not sure if it's more of a win more card.
Staff of Domination: A sink for your mana. Multi-use card. Creature control(tap down), life gain, and card advantage.
Cabal Coffers: You're playing MBC. This should be in there. Gives you access to lots of mana.
Swamp: MBC.
Sideboard:
Engineered Plague: Goblin control.
Haunting Echoes: See Main Deck explanation.
Damnation: Black ***. Replaced Mutilate.
Nightmare Void: Recurrable dicard, mainly against combo.
Skeletal Scrying: Card advantage.
Wrench Mind: More hand disruption.