If running flagstones with smallpox you should likely have mote urborg or fetid heath. Sometimes a turn 2 smallpox to hit the 1 land and 1 creature your opponent played can be backbreaking if you can filter the white mana from flagstone with another land to do this means you are way ahead, especially if you can discard a bloodghast to smallpox and get landfall from flagstones. But with only 1 urborg and no filter land explosive plays like this are rarely possible
That's a great suggestion. I'll try dropping a fetch land to add in one fetid heath.
We share a lot of the same list, which is a good sign. My only worry is that you cut Smallpox. I've never really found it to be a do nothing card, unless it is the late game, in which case it can be looted away. I prefer to think that the graveyard interactions, like Bloodghast, Faithless, and Angler were included to compliment using Smallpox. Without that card, you might have a stronger deck playing a pure Mardu control build and dropping the graveyard interactions. How do you deal with not running out of gas?
I built the deck to be as close to a typical Mardu control deck as possible, since it has put up proven results. Ajax is on the sideboard for me, since I want to be more aggressive game 1. Sorin synergies well with Young Pyromancer and Bloodghast. I'm going a little more wide in my build than you are.
Why use these colors to play a Pox deck? Green gives you so much more than both red and white for that strategy.
White gives you Flagstones of Trokair, red gives you Young Pyromancer, both of which have great interactions with Smallpox. I like playing control, so I'm trying it out in the typical Mardu shell. I didn't want to play a deck like Loam Pox which completely folds to graveyard hate.
How are you finding Nahiri alongside the Kiki-Resto combo?
All things considered I have the opinion that these shell provides some aggression and ability to close games down, but concerning all other aspects of Mardu, I think there are more disadvantages then advantages, if compared to a grindy standard list of mardu.
I agree with you on all of these points really. I do want to clarify that I don't think it's worth it to run 4x Bloodghast, 4x Faithless Looting + Some number of Anglers in the normal shell. The cons definitely outweigh the pros here. I run 4x Ghast, 3x Looting and 1x Angler to compliment using 4x Smallpox, not the other way around. Alongside that, I use a typical removal + creature base.
I think we can all agree that Mardu is a fairly unsolved shell, this is just one more option to test out.
I'm looking forward to trying the list in competitive play but I would love to get some thoughts in the meantime. Sideboard options would be great as well.
This list looks very solid for building on a budget. My only worry is that you have too few sac targets for Falkenrath. If Bloodghast is out of the question for now, I would replace her and underworld connections with 3 Heir of Falkenrath and 3 Asylum Visitor. Underworld is a cool idea, but I think you might be better off just with Asylum or Phyrexian Arena.
I don't disagree with anything you're saying but you are literally considering the best case scenarios for these card interactions.
And discarding souls, ghast, and faithless looting isn't that amazing. A lot of the times, you want to cast two parts of the same card like souls. Most times you will flashback looting once a gamr at the most, so putting another looting into the grave is like winning a free happy meal at mcdonalds. Looting doesn't pay its full value in decks that don't have some kind of unfair combo (e.g griselbrand summoning).
I prefer to look at what typically happens as well as the worst-case scenarios. Interaction between ghast and kalitas for instance isn't going to be that common. If it works, it certainly may not even be game breaking. Each card in the deck either needs to carry their own weight (e.g jund or junk) or be part of some unifying goal (e.g burn or combo).
I'm trying to highlight some of the benefits of playing with Bloodghast and Faithless Looting in Mardu that I have experience with, so of course I'm going to be talking about best case scenarios. Analyzing from a worst-case scenario basis is a good idea, but don't you think it is better to actually test the cards?
Most builds run 4 Lingering Souls, so drawing multiple in a game isn't that uncommon. Think about it this way: if you loot away a Lingering Souls, you essential reduced its cost by one AND it replaced itself. That has never been a bad thing when it played out for me.
I'm not trying to say that we get the best value out of Bloodghast and Looting, weren't not vengevine or griselbrand. But, they do have the surprising effect of increasing the deck's ability to close out the game faster, and provide us with virtual card advantage and filtering. Have you ever drawn and inquisition late game and wished it were something else? Flashing back looting is a powerful option in the late game.
Kaltias and Ghast scenarios are fairly common because Bloodghast doesn't go away without graveyard hate.
I'm not trying cause a huge argument here, simply trying to show that these cards can provide some advantages in this shell.
Why run Delver builds with Mardu when you can run it with Grixis? Grixis you have the ability to protect the few creatures you have with counterspells and also get thought scour, which doesn't give you negative card advantage like faithless looting. Also, Bloodghast is one of those cards you want to dedicate in a creature-oriented build like Dredgevine otherwise it just becomes a nuisance in the late game.
Wear/tear isn't useful against RiP because the damage is done when RiP hits the board.
Faithless looting is either neutral or positive card advantage if you discard 1-2 of Bloodghast, Lingering Souls, or even another Faithless Looting. If you run high enough numbers of those spells, this can happen quite often.
You're right that we don't have access to the same synergy that Bloodghast has with Vengevine, but we do have Kalitas, who also combos with ghast.
Wear/tear can be useful against RiP if your Bloodghasts have died yet, or hasn't been cast.
@ ebrosef and @desertdrive I was not talking about Bloodghast as a single card being bad since being susceptible to GY hate. I know its a powerful card. Again, if you look at the decklist, its easy to see, that if say a RIP or Leyline of the Void or any similar GY hate hits the board, the deck only has half a lingering souls, a 2/1 for 2, 2 Kalitas and a 5/5 for 7 as threats. (In addition KCommand and looting becomes slightly worse)
I know that bloodghasts pros outweigh the cons, but does this apply to all other cards that GY hate affects on? If you think about it, and add up all the little things that become worse through that, its actually a huge problem. And this is a problem which is normally not present in Mardu lists.
The main problems of Mardu are: susceptible to combo, not able to close games down fast (due to missing relevant 2 drop), dead cards against non-creature based strategies. So by running this list, besides all problems Mardu already has, now GY hate is a problem. I personally wouldn't want that, because I think by going for that route of strategy, not at least a single other problem of mardu is fully compensated. This is the concern I have about this list.
The nice thing about Bloodghast and Faithless looting is that it helps make the deck more explosive. It does introduce a small weakness to graveyard hate at the expense of being able to close games down faster. Rest in peace does turn Bloodghast into a 2/1 for 2 with no abilities, but it does the same for Snapcaster and no one bats an eye at this problem.
Here's what I'm working on. Thinking Kalitas might get swapped for Butcher of the Horde (possibly a 1:1 split?) since both work really well with Bloodghast. Haven't tested much yet. So far I'm liking it, but definitely a work in progressive.
You're list is very similar to mine, however I focus a little more on Smallpox synergies. I would recommend using 4x Bloodghast, 3x Young Pyromancer, 2x Kalitas, and 1x Gurmag Angler as the threats. Ajani is good, but try using a Sorin alongside. You also need some form of card advantage. I would drop Murderous Cut for a Painful Truths or two.
@desertdrive I think Bloodghast, KCommand and Lingering Souls are all nonbos with Angler and Murderous Cut, so I think thats somewhat suboptimal. You will have the issue of running out of gas, because you have no card draw whatsoever (Looting is just filtering by the way, and it is concerning card advantage negative, it costs you a card). Concerning your manabase I would run the full 4 Blackcleave cliffs and cut the extra 2 shockland copies of Godless and Blood crypt, also I would cut a fetchland and add a third shambling vent, I think more than one kind of shock is actually not really needed most of the time.
And actually your deck is pretty susceptible to GY hate. I think if someone play RIP and you can't answer it, you pretty much can't do anything, your Bloodghasts are just 2/1 for 2, Lingering Souls and Looting can't be flashbacked, you can't cast Angler (most likely), and you can't get back a Kalitas with KCommand which potentially can get killed, since its your best card if GY hate hits the board.
I am inclined to think you haven't tried Bloodghast @FlyingDelver. If you had, you would know that the benifits of playing him outweigh the weakness to graveyard hate. Looting can be positive card advantage if you discard a Bloodghast and Lingering Souls in the process. You are right that @desertdrive's list does need some real card advantage, however.
Hi guys. I'm new to the forum. I started in the Prowess build, but once I started playing in my new meta, I knew right away after two nights of modern... that i needed a new approach, and midrange is more my style anyways.
-So i'm not sure how this build looks, i think i might cut down on one of my paths, to make room for another counterspell.
-I also think i may take out a check land for another basic, i played against living end last night and fulminator mage was not friendly to me.
-my meta is pretty competative, and quite serious, which is a huge difference from what im used to.
-during my 2 nights of playing, i literally saw every deck archetype under the sun: Affinity, Infect, Jund, Temur Goyf, STUPID THOPTER BUILDS, lingering souls everywhere , 3 different delver builds, Abzan, soul sisters, reanimator, dredge, Tron of course, grixis control with/without thing in the ice, burn and zoo or course, and of course chord of calling decks. So i need a sideboard that will hit as much as possible on my bad match ups.
-bonfire of the damned is a pet card, i want to try it out against all the token builds like thopters and lingering souls, and all the small aggro decks.
-dont mock gideon. I love smashing him in on an open board. He has won games for me by himself lol but im open to suggestions gang
How does the sideboard look so far guys? Any tips/tricks? I would like to make some room for another timely reinforcements... i figured kor firewalker wouldn't be too easy on the mana base and with my board wipes doesn't make much sense.
-Do people prefer anger of the gods or supreme verdict or try to find room for both?
-Should I find room for spellskite?
Very cool list! Bonfire of the Damned + Serum Visions is a really good idea. I imagine that could lead to some massive blow-outs. The full 4 paths are usually necessary in the deck, so I wouldn't run any less. The only changes I could potentially see are:
1. OUT: 1x Forked Bolt and 1x Spell Pierce, IN: 2x Remand. Forked bolt and spell pierce are both great cards, but only against specific match-ups. Remand is a more general tempo generator that can help us lock out the game. You already have better Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce-like cards in the sideboard that can come in if you need them.
2. OUT: 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, IN: 1x Archangel Avacyn. Gideon is also an awesome card, but we can't take advantage of him the same way that tokens or any other go-wide strategy can. Avacyn is much more in-line with your deck's strategy by being able to protect Geist, but is also stellar against aggro in the same way that Gideon is.
3. OUT: 1x Clifftop Retreat, IN:Ghost Quarter or Desolate Lighthouse. You seem to have more than enough sources of each color, so I would recommend trying out one or two utility lands. Ghost Quarter can be immensely helpful against enemy man-lands, tron pieces, or Gavonry townships.
4. OUT: 1x Essence Scatter, IN:1x Celestial Purge. Essence scatter is a bit redundant when we have a ton of removal and better two mana counterspells. Celestial purge helps us get rid of things like Liliana of the Veil.
That Bonfire of the Damned is seriously a cool idea, I might try it out myself!
It runs a pretty weird creature base of 1x Goblin Dark Dwellers, 3x Resto, 3x Wall of Omens, 4x Snapcaster, 1x Kiki-Jiki, and 2x Geist. The list seems really all over the place, but obviously did well. I would personally cut the GDD and AV from the list, but Geist and Kiki together seems interesting. Is it too inconsistent to pack in a single Kiki-Jiki or is it worth trying?
Debating weather or not to run Serum Visions is very inconsequential. Either you run 3-4 SV, or you are running 1 Land and 2-3 extra of the two mana counterspells. Do either have a huge impact on the deck, probably not. I personally like having answers right away in my hand, but that is because I built the deck to be more controlling. If you are running the tempo game a little more, serum visions isn't a bad option.
That's a great suggestion. I'll try dropping a fetch land to add in one fetid heath.
Here is my list:
4x Bloodghast
3x Young Pyromancer
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Gurmag Angler
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Instants/Soceries: 26
3x Faithless Looting
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
4x Lingering Souls
2x Painful Truths
4x Smallpox
2x Terminate
4x Marsh Flats
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Godless Shrine
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Blood Crypt
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Crumble to Dust
1x Duress
1x Lightning Helix
2x Molten Rain
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Stony Silence
1x Terminate
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Torpor Orb
2x Wear / Tear
1x Wrath of God
1x Zealous Persecution
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
I built the deck to be as close to a typical Mardu control deck as possible, since it has put up proven results. Ajax is on the sideboard for me, since I want to be more aggressive game 1. Sorin synergies well with Young Pyromancer and Bloodghast. I'm going a little more wide in my build than you are.
White gives you Flagstones of Trokair, red gives you Young Pyromancer, both of which have great interactions with Smallpox. I like playing control, so I'm trying it out in the typical Mardu shell. I didn't want to play a deck like Loam Pox which completely folds to graveyard hate.
How are you finding Nahiri alongside the Kiki-Resto combo?
I agree with you on all of these points really. I do want to clarify that I don't think it's worth it to run 4x Bloodghast, 4x Faithless Looting + Some number of Anglers in the normal shell. The cons definitely outweigh the pros here. I run 4x Ghast, 3x Looting and 1x Angler to compliment using 4x Smallpox, not the other way around. Alongside that, I use a typical removal + creature base.
I think we can all agree that Mardu is a fairly unsolved shell, this is just one more option to test out.
This list looks very solid for building on a budget. My only worry is that you have too few sac targets for Falkenrath. If Bloodghast is out of the question for now, I would replace her and underworld connections with 3 Heir of Falkenrath and 3 Asylum Visitor. Underworld is a cool idea, but I think you might be better off just with Asylum or Phyrexian Arena.
I'm trying to highlight some of the benefits of playing with Bloodghast and Faithless Looting in Mardu that I have experience with, so of course I'm going to be talking about best case scenarios. Analyzing from a worst-case scenario basis is a good idea, but don't you think it is better to actually test the cards?
Most builds run 4 Lingering Souls, so drawing multiple in a game isn't that uncommon. Think about it this way: if you loot away a Lingering Souls, you essential reduced its cost by one AND it replaced itself. That has never been a bad thing when it played out for me.
I'm not trying to say that we get the best value out of Bloodghast and Looting, weren't not vengevine or griselbrand. But, they do have the surprising effect of increasing the deck's ability to close out the game faster, and provide us with virtual card advantage and filtering. Have you ever drawn and inquisition late game and wished it were something else? Flashing back looting is a powerful option in the late game.
Kaltias and Ghast scenarios are fairly common because Bloodghast doesn't go away without graveyard hate.
I'm not trying cause a huge argument here, simply trying to show that these cards can provide some advantages in this shell.
Faithless looting is either neutral or positive card advantage if you discard 1-2 of Bloodghast, Lingering Souls, or even another Faithless Looting. If you run high enough numbers of those spells, this can happen quite often.
You're right that we don't have access to the same synergy that Bloodghast has with Vengevine, but we do have Kalitas, who also combos with ghast.
Wear/tear can be useful against RiP if your Bloodghasts have died yet, or hasn't been cast.
The nice thing about Bloodghast and Faithless looting is that it helps make the deck more explosive. It does introduce a small weakness to graveyard hate at the expense of being able to close games down faster. Rest in peace does turn Bloodghast into a 2/1 for 2 with no abilities, but it does the same for Snapcaster and no one bats an eye at this problem.
You're list is very similar to mine, however I focus a little more on Smallpox synergies. I would recommend using 4x Bloodghast, 3x Young Pyromancer, 2x Kalitas, and 1x Gurmag Angler as the threats. Ajani is good, but try using a Sorin alongside. You also need some form of card advantage. I would drop Murderous Cut for a Painful Truths or two.
I am inclined to think you haven't tried Bloodghast @FlyingDelver. If you had, you would know that the benifits of playing him outweigh the weakness to graveyard hate. Looting can be positive card advantage if you discard a Bloodghast and Lingering Souls in the process. You are right that @desertdrive's list does need some real card advantage, however.
Liliana is great, but I've been able to get away without her in my list to much success in my local meta. I'll post my list on the thread sometime.
Very cool list! Bonfire of the Damned + Serum Visions is a really good idea. I imagine that could lead to some massive blow-outs. The full 4 paths are usually necessary in the deck, so I wouldn't run any less. The only changes I could potentially see are:
1. OUT: 1x Forked Bolt and 1x Spell Pierce, IN: 2x Remand. Forked bolt and spell pierce are both great cards, but only against specific match-ups. Remand is a more general tempo generator that can help us lock out the game. You already have better Forked Bolt and Spell Pierce-like cards in the sideboard that can come in if you need them.
2. OUT: 1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, IN: 1x Archangel Avacyn. Gideon is also an awesome card, but we can't take advantage of him the same way that tokens or any other go-wide strategy can. Avacyn is much more in-line with your deck's strategy by being able to protect Geist, but is also stellar against aggro in the same way that Gideon is.
3. OUT: 1x Clifftop Retreat, IN:Ghost Quarter or Desolate Lighthouse. You seem to have more than enough sources of each color, so I would recommend trying out one or two utility lands. Ghost Quarter can be immensely helpful against enemy man-lands, tron pieces, or Gavonry townships.
4. OUT: 1x Essence Scatter, IN:1x Celestial Purge. Essence scatter is a bit redundant when we have a ton of removal and better two mana counterspells. Celestial purge helps us get rid of things like Liliana of the Veil.
That Bonfire of the Damned is seriously a cool idea, I might try it out myself!
It runs a pretty weird creature base of 1x Goblin Dark Dwellers, 3x Resto, 3x Wall of Omens, 4x Snapcaster, 1x Kiki-Jiki, and 2x Geist. The list seems really all over the place, but obviously did well. I would personally cut the GDD and AV from the list, but Geist and Kiki together seems interesting. Is it too inconsistent to pack in a single Kiki-Jiki or is it worth trying?