Currently I would say Lingering Souls does give a high enough level of value in some common matchups though that it does warrant inclusion. Obviously it's primary use is to be splashed if you expect a meta full of GB/x decks, which is arguably one of the most popular decks in the format overall and very likely the #1 deck you're likely to play against if you're playing in a major event like an Open/GP/RPTQ. And, at least from my experience so far, the splash is very close to free. The only downside to splashing black in the manabase is that you cannot run a basic mountain to fetch early, so in the first 1-2 turns it's harder to cast Lightning Bolt without taking damage to do so. But I seriously haven't felt having two black sources has hurt my mana at all, even against decks with Blood Moon.
Also I will say that Mystical Teachings has been so incredibly versatile that it honestly would just warrant a black splash on its own. I see alot of straight UWR lists running a second Sphinx's Revelation in the slot where I'm running Teachings, and a second Rev seems suppppper clunky in any matchup that's typically going to be decided in the first four turns. So I'd rather have a card that can function as a toolbox, while also being able to find Rev, over just running a second Rev.
Basically even if it just were for 1-2 cards in the maindeck or even just some sideboard slots, I still feel as if splashing a fourth color with the manabase I'm playing is pretty simple. I'm not opposed at all to not playing black if the meta shifts in a way where the black cards aren't needed anymore, but right now I just don't see that.
I'm going to start by saying that this entire "Lingering Souls is/is not a control card" argument going on in the comments above is giving none of us any reliable information. The goal of this thread is to establish what the best UWR Control list for the current Modern format consists of. Having a petty argument with somebody else in the thread really does nothing but derail the entire point of the discussion.
Regarding the list I posted earlier, though, I did play it through the Modern Premier IQ in Kansas City on Sunday. I ended up 5-3 in the Swiss with two of my matches going to opponents who didn't show, so essentially 3-3 in actual matches played. The results of the event for the list went as follows:
Round 1 - Opponent didn't show up (1-0)
Round 2 - Win against UR Twin (2-0)
Round 3 - Win against Burn (3-0)
Round 4 - Loss against UR Twin (3-1)
Round 5 - Loss against UR Twin (3-2)
Round 6 - Loss against Living End (3-3)
Round 7 - Win against Tarmo-Twin (4-3)
Round 8 - Opponent didn't show because match didn't matter (5-3)
As you can see, I played an awful lot against Twin, and I can definitely say UR Twin itself was the most popular deck in the room, and including the other Twin variants was the most popular archetype by a huge margin. But I also find this to be the case fairly often when it comes to Modern events of late, so it was something I expected. Going 2-2 in my Twin matches obviously isn't where I want to be, but I also feel like my list could be tuned to help make that matchup somewhat more favorable without sacrificing too much to the rest of the meta.
My other loss to Living End I honestly felt like there was nothing I could do. Game 1 I won because I was able to Mana Leak his first cascade into Living End, and then he had bad luck with drawing his other two copies. Games 2 and 3 I did play a reactive game for some time against him, but just playing Fulminator Mages against me in the mid-game gave him enough to do before I eventually ran out of ways to stop him just suspending Living End from hand. I definitely feel like some hard graveyard interaction may be necessary if this deck increases in popularity, but I may take some time to decide if anything like Rest in Peace/Relics/Surgical warrants any inclusion in the sideboard.
As you can see the only changes to the 75 are:
-1 Lingering Souls MD
+1 Restoration Angel MD
-1 Rending Volley SB
+1 Celestial Purge SB
The reason for the second Restoration Angel is mostly to help present another win condition against Twin decks, that still has the benefit of being cast-able at instant speed. Sukenik himself said the first Resto pretty much added for this reason to begin with, because tapping out for any threats against Twin can be pretty rough because 1) they usually have counteracts to interact with sorcery speed cards well 2) tapping out can put you at risk of having them combo, especially in Game 1. While I did say earlier Lingering Souls can still be serviceable against Twin, providing card advantage and threat they often have trouble dealing with, it's also never something I find myself just slamming on Turn 3 in that matchup. I often board at least one against them, if not even just all three when I'm on the draw against some players, so I feel like this change is a step up in that regard.
The main matchups Lingering Souls gives you help in, such as Jund, Affinity, Infect, or any of the Grixis control variants, I still feel like are very comfortable for this deck with Restoration Angel. A 3/4 body is pretty hard to kill in Modern outside of Terminate/other pieces of straight hard removal, because it dodges cards like Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command. And against opposing Path to Exile decks you're usually just happy with the extra land and then using a card to get rid of your Angel.
The second Celestial Purge is sort of a hedge against the fact that certain cards are increasing in popularity in Modern. Most Twin players are on the 2 Blood Moon 2 Keranos sideboard plan against you, so often-times Purge is very likely your best cards Games 2 and 3 because it removes the only cards they have that matter. Like I explained earlier though it also hits cards like Liliana of the Veil, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, as well as every creature you see against Burn. So I feel like the card is good enough in Modern to warrant a 2-of.
Cutting the Rending Volley seems counterintuitive, I know, because "Hey, aren't you trying to IMPROVE your numbers against Twin," but I feel like the card does not do much post-board in that matchup, and I'll explain why. I would say the vast majority of Twin players are sideboarding out their Pestermites as well at least 2, more likely 3 to 4, copies of Splinter Twin against you postboard. They know you already have alot of cards that interact with the combo, and seeing your greedy manabase they tend to be on a plan on disrupting you mana and fighting over a resolved Keranos until they out-card advantage you. Each time I've had Rending Volley it's felt pretty mediocre, being used mostly as a 1-for-1 removal spell with an uncounterable clause, as opposed to something that actually disrupts their postboard gameplan.
Any input feel free to let me know. I don't know of any major Modern events that will be occuring here soon (hopefully some local IQs as the next Modern Grand Prix wont be until March in Detriot) but I do know I'm loving playing this deck, and I'll still be tweaking it here in the next couple weeks.
I can say personally I've been a huge fan of Lingering Souls in a few matchups that are currently pretty popular. It's great against Infect, Affinity, Jund or any of the other BG/x variants. Also, as counterintuitive as it may seem, having them against Twin actually can help, although you rarely can tap out for it early in the game. But from what I've found, Twin has an awful time trying to resolve their combo against you, so once the game goes late by around turns 8 or 9 it actually gives you a way to present a threat they can't really handle that well outside of Electrolyze.
I definitely can see going down to 2 at some point, but for KC I'm going to stick with three mostly for the sort of matchups I mentioned earlier.
The one change I think is likely to happen before the 5K tomorrow is that I'm probably going to add a second Celestial Purge to the sideboard. It's possibly one of my best cards against Twin for postboard matchups where they're boarding out their combo and looking to win with Blood Moons and Keranos. And also there's obviously other permanents the card's very powerful against right now: Liliana, Tasigur/Angler, any creatures in Burn. And since I'm definitely anticipating Jund and Twin variants to be the most popular decks in the room I think that seems like a good change.
The cut is likely going to be -1 Izzet Staticaster for the second Celestial Purge. Staticaster, from what I've experienced, is great in quite alot of matchups (Affinity, Infect, Tokens, just other random creature decks). But in most of the matchups where Staticaster normally is good I already feel pretty favored without the card. In testing I've been doing fantastic against Infect. Affinity can be a little bit rough because they're so dense with threats it's hard to trade 1 for 1 with them and still come out ahead, but I feel like some of the other sideboard cards I have already can make that a pretty serviceable matchup postboard.
First time poster here. I've been testing various iterations of Jeskai Control, Jeskai Midrange, and 4C Control for about the past 4-5 months. I was on Affinity almost exclusively for the past three years, but looking at the current state of Modern I honestly feel like a UWR(x) shell is very well positioned at the time being. I'd say ever since playing in the SCG Invitational in Columbus and seeing Jonathan Sukenik's list from that event go X-1 in the Modern portion, I've spend the past months using his 75 as a starting point from which to learn. I've tested multiple different changes to the list, sideboard changes, and after everything imaginable I have still settled on the list below which is still 74 of Sukenik's original 75 minus one sideboard card.
The deck will be getting it's second competitive go-around this weekend. I plan on going to the 5K Invitational this Sunday at SCG Kansas City. I haven't been able to make it out to any major Modern events as frequently as I'd like this year, but I have been testing this deck extensively in our local paper meta, as well as testing matches against different archetypes on X-mage. I currently feel comfortable against almost the entire field in terms of the current Modern meta, but I still feel very weak to a few specific decks which which I'll discuss below:
Against GR Tron (to a smaller extent other Tron variants) I always feel heavily unfavored and like there's little to do to increase my chances in the match. Personally, from my viewpoint, the match-up is actually so rough I don't want to dedicate any more sideboard slots to the matchup (the 1 Crumble to Dust was mostly there for that FYI). Does anybody have any good experience as to what does effectively help you numbers against Tron players?
Also against Bloom Titan it always feels like they're so redundant that it's incredibly hard to play a reactive game against them because once the game goes long they have better inevidability than you. I have managed to beat the matchup two times in a row, but I do feel like overall it's a very lop-sided matchup for us.
A little less popular but I've also had problems against the Nourishing Shoal Reanimator deck, and a little trouble with Living End. Personally I don't expect to see either of those decks in large numbers on Sunday, but if anyone has any feedback on those matchups I'd love a discussion. At this point in Modern though, I don't feel like you can justify more than 1 piece of dedicated graveyard hate in your sideboard. Grave-yard based decks aren't very popular right now (minus the Delve vartiants which I feel favored against mostly), but if anyone has an argument otherwise I'd be great to hear.
I plan on writing up a tournament report for my matches I'll be playing at SCG Kansas City this weekend, so expect that come next week. But until then please do comment on any good changes you'd make to this list or any general advice you might have for those problem matchups I discussed.
Also I will say that Mystical Teachings has been so incredibly versatile that it honestly would just warrant a black splash on its own. I see alot of straight UWR lists running a second Sphinx's Revelation in the slot where I'm running Teachings, and a second Rev seems suppppper clunky in any matchup that's typically going to be decided in the first four turns. So I'd rather have a card that can function as a toolbox, while also being able to find Rev, over just running a second Rev.
Basically even if it just were for 1-2 cards in the maindeck or even just some sideboard slots, I still feel as if splashing a fourth color with the manabase I'm playing is pretty simple. I'm not opposed at all to not playing black if the meta shifts in a way where the black cards aren't needed anymore, but right now I just don't see that.
Regarding the list I posted earlier, though, I did play it through the Modern Premier IQ in Kansas City on Sunday. I ended up 5-3 in the Swiss with two of my matches going to opponents who didn't show, so essentially 3-3 in actual matches played. The results of the event for the list went as follows:
Round 1 - Opponent didn't show up (1-0)
Round 2 - Win against UR Twin (2-0)
Round 3 - Win against Burn (3-0)
Round 4 - Loss against UR Twin (3-1)
Round 5 - Loss against UR Twin (3-2)
Round 6 - Loss against Living End (3-3)
Round 7 - Win against Tarmo-Twin (4-3)
Round 8 - Opponent didn't show because match didn't matter (5-3)
As you can see, I played an awful lot against Twin, and I can definitely say UR Twin itself was the most popular deck in the room, and including the other Twin variants was the most popular archetype by a huge margin. But I also find this to be the case fairly often when it comes to Modern events of late, so it was something I expected. Going 2-2 in my Twin matches obviously isn't where I want to be, but I also feel like my list could be tuned to help make that matchup somewhat more favorable without sacrificing too much to the rest of the meta.
My other loss to Living End I honestly felt like there was nothing I could do. Game 1 I won because I was able to Mana Leak his first cascade into Living End, and then he had bad luck with drawing his other two copies. Games 2 and 3 I did play a reactive game for some time against him, but just playing Fulminator Mages against me in the mid-game gave him enough to do before I eventually ran out of ways to stop him just suspending Living End from hand. I definitely feel like some hard graveyard interaction may be necessary if this deck increases in popularity, but I may take some time to decide if anything like Rest in Peace/Relics/Surgical warrants any inclusion in the sideboard.
As of today the list I'm playing stands as is:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Anticipate
2 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Gideon Jura
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Annul
1 Dispel
2 Celestial Purge
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Negate
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Crackling Doom
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wear / Tear
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Baneslayer Angel
As you can see the only changes to the 75 are:
-1 Lingering Souls MD
+1 Restoration Angel MD
-1 Rending Volley SB
+1 Celestial Purge SB
The reason for the second Restoration Angel is mostly to help present another win condition against Twin decks, that still has the benefit of being cast-able at instant speed. Sukenik himself said the first Resto pretty much added for this reason to begin with, because tapping out for any threats against Twin can be pretty rough because 1) they usually have counteracts to interact with sorcery speed cards well 2) tapping out can put you at risk of having them combo, especially in Game 1. While I did say earlier Lingering Souls can still be serviceable against Twin, providing card advantage and threat they often have trouble dealing with, it's also never something I find myself just slamming on Turn 3 in that matchup. I often board at least one against them, if not even just all three when I'm on the draw against some players, so I feel like this change is a step up in that regard.
The main matchups Lingering Souls gives you help in, such as Jund, Affinity, Infect, or any of the Grixis control variants, I still feel like are very comfortable for this deck with Restoration Angel. A 3/4 body is pretty hard to kill in Modern outside of Terminate/other pieces of straight hard removal, because it dodges cards like Lightning Bolt, Kolaghan's Command. And against opposing Path to Exile decks you're usually just happy with the extra land and then using a card to get rid of your Angel.
The second Celestial Purge is sort of a hedge against the fact that certain cards are increasing in popularity in Modern. Most Twin players are on the 2 Blood Moon 2 Keranos sideboard plan against you, so often-times Purge is very likely your best cards Games 2 and 3 because it removes the only cards they have that matter. Like I explained earlier though it also hits cards like Liliana of the Veil, Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, as well as every creature you see against Burn. So I feel like the card is good enough in Modern to warrant a 2-of.
Cutting the Rending Volley seems counterintuitive, I know, because "Hey, aren't you trying to IMPROVE your numbers against Twin," but I feel like the card does not do much post-board in that matchup, and I'll explain why. I would say the vast majority of Twin players are sideboarding out their Pestermites as well at least 2, more likely 3 to 4, copies of Splinter Twin against you postboard. They know you already have alot of cards that interact with the combo, and seeing your greedy manabase they tend to be on a plan on disrupting you mana and fighting over a resolved Keranos until they out-card advantage you. Each time I've had Rending Volley it's felt pretty mediocre, being used mostly as a 1-for-1 removal spell with an uncounterable clause, as opposed to something that actually disrupts their postboard gameplan.
Any input feel free to let me know. I don't know of any major Modern events that will be occuring here soon (hopefully some local IQs as the next Modern Grand Prix wont be until March in Detriot) but I do know I'm loving playing this deck, and I'll still be tweaking it here in the next couple weeks.
I definitely can see going down to 2 at some point, but for KC I'm going to stick with three mostly for the sort of matchups I mentioned earlier.
The one change I think is likely to happen before the 5K tomorrow is that I'm probably going to add a second Celestial Purge to the sideboard. It's possibly one of my best cards against Twin for postboard matchups where they're boarding out their combo and looking to win with Blood Moons and Keranos. And also there's obviously other permanents the card's very powerful against right now: Liliana, Tasigur/Angler, any creatures in Burn. And since I'm definitely anticipating Jund and Twin variants to be the most popular decks in the room I think that seems like a good change.
The cut is likely going to be -1 Izzet Staticaster for the second Celestial Purge. Staticaster, from what I've experienced, is great in quite alot of matchups (Affinity, Infect, Tokens, just other random creature decks). But in most of the matchups where Staticaster normally is good I already feel pretty favored without the card. In testing I've been doing fantastic against Infect. Affinity can be a little bit rough because they're so dense with threats it's hard to trade 1 for 1 with them and still come out ahead, but I feel like some of the other sideboard cards I have already can make that a pretty serviceable matchup postboard.
First time poster here. I've been testing various iterations of Jeskai Control, Jeskai Midrange, and 4C Control for about the past 4-5 months. I was on Affinity almost exclusively for the past three years, but looking at the current state of Modern I honestly feel like a UWR(x) shell is very well positioned at the time being. I'd say ever since playing in the SCG Invitational in Columbus and seeing Jonathan Sukenik's list from that event go X-1 in the Modern portion, I've spend the past months using his 75 as a starting point from which to learn. I've tested multiple different changes to the list, sideboard changes, and after everything imaginable I have still settled on the list below which is still 74 of Sukenik's original 75 minus one sideboard card.
Here's the list:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Restoration Angel
Spells (30)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Helix
3 Lingering Souls
2 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
2 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Anticipate
2 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Gideon Jura
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Annul
1 Dispel
1 Rending Volley
1 Celestial Purge
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Negate
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Counterflux
1 Crackling Doom
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wear / Tear
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Baneslayer Angel
The deck will be getting it's second competitive go-around this weekend. I plan on going to the 5K Invitational this Sunday at SCG Kansas City. I haven't been able to make it out to any major Modern events as frequently as I'd like this year, but I have been testing this deck extensively in our local paper meta, as well as testing matches against different archetypes on X-mage. I currently feel comfortable against almost the entire field in terms of the current Modern meta, but I still feel very weak to a few specific decks which which I'll discuss below:
Against GR Tron (to a smaller extent other Tron variants) I always feel heavily unfavored and like there's little to do to increase my chances in the match. Personally, from my viewpoint, the match-up is actually so rough I don't want to dedicate any more sideboard slots to the matchup (the 1 Crumble to Dust was mostly there for that FYI). Does anybody have any good experience as to what does effectively help you numbers against Tron players?
Also against Bloom Titan it always feels like they're so redundant that it's incredibly hard to play a reactive game against them because once the game goes long they have better inevidability than you. I have managed to beat the matchup two times in a row, but I do feel like overall it's a very lop-sided matchup for us.
A little less popular but I've also had problems against the Nourishing Shoal Reanimator deck, and a little trouble with Living End. Personally I don't expect to see either of those decks in large numbers on Sunday, but if anyone has any feedback on those matchups I'd love a discussion. At this point in Modern though, I don't feel like you can justify more than 1 piece of dedicated graveyard hate in your sideboard. Grave-yard based decks aren't very popular right now (minus the Delve vartiants which I feel favored against mostly), but if anyone has an argument otherwise I'd be great to hear.
I plan on writing up a tournament report for my matches I'll be playing at SCG Kansas City this weekend, so expect that come next week. But until then please do comment on any good changes you'd make to this list or any general advice you might have for those problem matchups I discussed.