Could Pithing Needle be helpful here? It can disable one of their guys or a relic. Also, it can be used against the Tron planeswalker, Ooze, and maybe a few other things
I'm not exactly sure what we can "hit" with Pithing Needle. Most of the relevant Eldrazi in the deck don't have activated abilities to hit. The only card I could see it being good against is the exile enablers like Relic of Progenitus (like you mentioned), Scrabbling Claws and Nihil Spellbomb. I think there are much better ways to combat the deck than that.
Soldier of the Pantheon was a staple for its entire time in Standard, though it's not showing up in Modern at all.
I feel like this guy doesn't get the love he deserves! He dodges Abrupt Decay, Electrolyze, Terminate, Kolaghan's Command, Dromoka's Command (the fight mode) and he incidentally gains you some life here and there. Sure, that's not 100% relevant in every match, but it's still fairly impressive on a 2/1 body for 1 measly white mana.
How's the 4 off charm working for you? I really like the card, but i don't think i ever wanted 4. 3 tops.
Also, a singleton curiosity? I always play 2/3. A singleton is to random and you really want it vs attrition and combo.
Otherwise, nice list. Keep up the good work.
The singleton Curiosity being too random is a valid point. I've been holding on to that single Feed the Clan in the sideboard for a long time and I'm sure it can come out for Curiosity #2. I rarely run into Burn at my LGS and when I do it's not a tough match up with the Goyf, Mandrills and enough counters to throw off their game. There's a complete lack of BGx in my meta right now, so that's why I can justify only one at the moment. It comes in against combo decks like Twin and Living End, but combo match-ups are already strong.
I'm happy with 4x Simic Charm. I've never run into a situation where it was dead in my hand and with all the new Ulamogs running around, it's helped to foil that cast trigger on many a surprised Tron player. There's A LOT of Tron in my meta right now, so I can completely justify 4 as it's good against Ulamog, Wurmcoil and just for pushing through extra damage for a more aggressive game when I need to finish the game.
Here's the list I've been running. The mana base is less than ideal, since I'm still missing the Tarns and I have no Blood Moons for the side. In my local meta, I find that I don't really need then all that badly and can get by without them.
I just wanted to commend this primer for having some awesome info. I've been following it for quite a while and I eventually was able to put together the pieces for the deck. After a bunch of play testing, I've been cleaning house at my LGS with this deck. The meta has a lot of Tron, combo and Affinity. I've played the last 6 weeks and my records have been:
4-0
4-0
3-0
3-0
2-1-1
2-2
Granted, 2 weeks we only had 8 players, which is why we only went 3 rounds a couple of nights. GBx has become non-existent in my current meta, which certainly hasn't hurt me at all. I'm a little puzzled as to why it's not more played. I also love the look on people's faces when I play Simic Charm. A lot of people need to read the card...The deck's build is so versatile that it really doesn't fold to any strategy straight, although I've found Affinity and Merfolk to be some steep uphill battles, though not unwinnable, especially post-board.
But, the discussions on tech in here have really opened up my mind as far as the game goes and I just wanted to thank everyone involved in progressing the discussion on this thread.
My beef with the huntmaster is that for his mana cost he usually nets you +2 life and a wolf. The single wolf is almost never relevant. The tokens the other cards leave behind are evasive. Huntsmaster gets there when he's online, but it's tough getting him going. Could just be my bad luck with the card though.
In terms of immediate value the parents are way better than Huntmaster of the Fell, 2/2 1/1F 1/1F is clearly > than 2/2 2/2 +2LP.
In terms of theorical long-time value the hunter can outshine almost any card (Tarmogoyf as well), but we know the world (meta) we live in, the opponents are not going to sit and watch the show. Flipping the master each turn is not so easy and it has the heavy downside that we're not sure if it's going to happen even once. Worst case scenario Huntmaster of the Fell is a 2/2 4CMC wolf token +2LP, a bit costly imho.
My experience with Huntmaster is that he comes out after your opponent has already wasted resources on your other threats, so by the time he hits the battlefield it's much more likely that they do not have the kill spells to take him down and his long term value is extremely high when he sticks. I've played games against Merfolk where Huntmaster single-handedly wrecked their board. Pia and Kiran don't have that kind of power to turn the game around like that.
I sleeved this up and played a LGS modern night. Went undefeated, 3-0. I had to use khans fetches instead of mistys and tarns, and I had no blood moons all for cosy reasons(I didn't expect much bloom, Tron, or abzan, so I wasn't t afraid). Otherwise the deck was fairly stock.
I beat Living End round 1. The matches were a steam rolling. Mana Leak and Stubborn Denial made that deck look pretty sad each game.
Round 2 was UR Twin. Simic Charm was an all star this match. Every mode is super relevant. Second game a Gitaxian Probe revealed a 2 Blood Moons. I almost chuckled as they were essentially dead cards against me and he drew nothin but mountains and vents for lands.
Round 3 was Tron. First game I had a super aggressive opener. Flipped a delver first turn and followed up with Goyf. Those two went wild with stubborn denial up to keep sweepers in check. Game 2 was Hooting Mandrills time to shine. One got smoked by an Ugin. I followed up with a second and was able to kill Ugin. Best play of the game was when he cast Ulamog and targeted my goyf and mandrills, but I had simic charm ready. I was able to finish him off next turn with mandrills and goyf attacking with a second simic charm.
I have to say, nothing feels quite like having a Hooting Mandrills in play with a Stubborn Denial in hand.
Oddly, I have a full play set of Disrupting Shoals in the deck, but only drew one once that night. I did use it to blank a remand against the twin match up, but I really want to play the card more, just to understand the correct plays for it better.
The power of tapping out and leading your opponent into a false sense of being able to play a spell with no worries of interaction from you, is huge. It's greatest power is baiting your opponent into casting something they need to play to get ahead that you can counter. When Shoal works, it's great. Shoaling a Aether Vial when you're on the draw against a Merfolk deck can really mess their strategy up bad (and feels really good).
The card's main problem is that you need to know exactly what spells you need to be using it on, way before you have to cast it and you need to hold the correct pitch for it. It's not like a catch-all counter, like Mana Leak or Stubborn Denial both of which will hit most scary cards your opponent can play, even if you hadn't planned on using it on a specific card.
The 2 for 1 aspect never phased me much. I think people have this misconception that card advantage is always a clear path to victory, but that's not the case when dealing with certain strategies. If that was the case, Goblin Guide would see less play. (OMG he lets your opponent draw cards when he attacks). Tempo doesn't necessarily care about ditching a card if it creates a profitable enough tempo swing.
All that being said, I'm not entirely sure I'm sold on the card. Sometimes I love it. Sometimes I hate staring at it, knowing that what I really need is Spell Snare or a Dispel.
I've been a long time follower of this thread and the MonkeyGrow RUG/Temur Delver thread, but finally decided to post.
I've mostly played tempo style decks, but haven't really been too serious about competitive magic and have only recently been playing at LGS FNM events and SCG events near me. I used to play Standard and switched to Modern after the UG Delver deck rotated out, slowly swapping out the Standard version into a Modern playable version and have tinkered with various RUG, UG and UR combinations, so when ashtonkutcher started brewing with Day's Undoing, I decided to use his primer to test it out at a LGS event last week. I had been doing a bit of playtesting with a few friends who played Merfolk, Jund and Grixis Delver before playing in this, so I have a little familiarity with the deck, but still have a long ways to go to learn it!
Just reporting mys results and observations! We played 4 rounds and I went 2-2.
My decklist is essentially Jordan's stock list with a few changes (mostly because of card availability). I was missing 1 Goyf, so I replaced it with one Hooting Mandrills and my fetchlands were less than ideal. My fetch suite included 4 Polluted Delta, 3 Wooded Foothill and 3 Flooded Strand. In my flex spots, I placed a Sleight of Hand and a Tarfire. (When I get a chance, I'll post the actual deck list).
Round 1: vs Infect (1-2)
Round 2: vs Junk (2-0)
Round 3: vs Living End (1-2)
Round 4: RG Breech (2-0)
Vs. Infect
Game 1: I was on the play and had good opener, although slightly threat heavy. I blind-flipped Delver on turn 2 and went straight into a Monastery Swiftspear and Tarfire on his turn 1 Glistener Elf. He never recovered.
Game 2: I struggled to flip my turn one Delver. I ate a little infect damage, while I dug for an answer to his elf. Couldn't find one and ate a Become Immense for the kill.
Game 3: I slung Lightning Bolt at a couple of threats and aggressively lost life fetching and probing and hit 13. I saw 2x Become Immense in his hand, which I didn't really see as a problem, but I wish I had. He dropped a Dryad Arbor and then a double Immense gave him a 13/13 creature with no resistance.
Thoughts: I made a huge error in how I sideboarded. Game 2, I took out my Day's Undoing for my Forked Bolts, which still seems like the right choice. Game 3, I decided to board out Delvers for 4x Snapcaster Mage. I'm not really sure what I was thinking, since there was no reason to switch to a midrange kind of strategy.
Vs. Junk
Game 1: This one dragged on. I was on the draw. Delver ate a Thoughtseize right away, but I drew into double Young Pyromancer. He got some Lingering Souls tokens out, but I chipped away at him with my elementals. I played undoing and drew into straight business (2 bolts and a snag). He only played a Finks after the undoing and I just bounced his Kitchen Finks, attacked with tons of tokens and bolted him twice for lethal.
Game 2: This one went shorter. He took a mulligan to 5 and didn't play any hand disruption. I blind-flipped a Delver and dropped a Young Pyro. Gitaxian Probe revealed that he had Choke, and 2 Lingering Souls. I was actually pretty happy about the Choke, since I had Undoing and a Shoal in hand. He tried playing it on his turn, but Shoal took care of it. After that, I hit him with tokens and Delver through his spirit tokens, eventually getting the win.
Vs. Living End
Game 1: On the play again. I was glad that I had a Disrupting Shoal in my opener after I saw him cycling a minotaur and a Street Wraith right away. I jammed out 2 Swiftspears early on and boosted them with cantrips. He cycled his creatures until he had 3 mana. Then he waited until my next turn to play Violent Outburst during my combat phase. I hit the Living End with Shoal for x=zero and finished the job the next turn with my Swiftspears.
Game 2: I probably should have took a mulligan, but I had 2 goyfs and a Serum Visions+Probe, so I decided to keep. The game went pretty much the same as last one for my opponent, until it was time to cast outburst. This time, I had no answer and struggled to recover with his board full of lame-o 3/4s.
Game 3: I landed a pyromancer turn two and had the Shoal in hand, but I fetched stupidly and didn't have double blue to counter the Living End. I also forgot that countering a spell with cascade doesn't stop the cascade trigger. So, I pitched Undoing to shoal to counter the outburst, but the cascade went off and I got my parts toasted.
Thoughts: This match should have been mine, but I just fetched like a moron on my last game. The second game, I should probably have held back a goyf knowing that I had no answer to Living End. You live. You learn.
Vs. RG Breach
Game 1: On the play again. I originally pegged this as a Scapeshift deck, since I saw an early Valakuut. The first game I got Delver and double Swiftspears out early. I won out of nowhere with my opponent's life total being 13, by casting a chain of spells and pumping Swiftspears. My opponent looked a little dumbfounded when it happened.
Game 2: I ground my opponent down to 1 life. I had Undoing in my hand, with 4 mana. He had a Stormbreath out. At this point I was rather confused as to what my opponent was playing, since he didn't do much in game and still thought I was playing against Scapeshift (albeit a really weird/bad budget version without blue). I decided to roll the dice and play the Undoing, leaving a Steam Vents up. I hit a snag and bounced his creature to push the last damage through.
Thoughts: This round made me realize how insane Swiftspears can be. Taking an opponent from 13 to 0 from out of nowhere on turn 3 by chaining cards like Probes/Visions/Bolts? That's pretty crazy.
Overall thoughts:
I'm cool with how I did. I could've done better had I not made some slip ups, but no game I played felt un-winnable. In fact, I feel if I had played better, I would have won all my rounds. There's some real potential in this deck and it often plays like the UR version with Treasure Cruise. Obviously, cruise is way better, but Undoing often functions as the way to finish out a game when you've run out of gas. I actually didn't have to cast it that often (only twice), but when I did, it won me the game.
Young Pyro and Swiftspear were all-stars. Swiftspear gets big in a hurry and out of nowhere. Goyf was kind of a dingus during my games. He's just a big dumb beast that your opponent sees coming a mile away. He's still great and I'd never not play him purely because of how efficient he is, but he's kind of lackluster in the element of surprise.
The cards that generally frustrate me the most are good old Delver of Secrets (we've always had a love-hate relationship since he got printed) and Disrupting Shoal. The reason being the variance on both of them. I've often toyed with the idea of dropping Delver for something else, because when he doesn't flip, he's kind of a turd. But the pure fact of the matter is, he's such a low mana investment and when he flips, the 3 power with evasion is such a huge tempo swing. A turn 2 blind flip Delver often wins the game. Disrupting Shoal is another card that has high variance. When it's good, it's insanely good. When it's bad...well, I think it has pretty artwork, so at least it's not an eyesore to look at. I had pretty good luck with both of them during my games at my LGS, but in testing, this has not always been the case. I have a feeling that DS is going to be another card that I have a love-hate relationship with.
I'm not exactly sure what we can "hit" with Pithing Needle. Most of the relevant Eldrazi in the deck don't have activated abilities to hit. The only card I could see it being good against is the exile enablers like Relic of Progenitus (like you mentioned), Scrabbling Claws and Nihil Spellbomb. I think there are much better ways to combat the deck than that.
I feel like this guy doesn't get the love he deserves! He dodges Abrupt Decay, Electrolyze, Terminate, Kolaghan's Command, Dromoka's Command (the fight mode) and he incidentally gains you some life here and there. Sure, that's not 100% relevant in every match, but it's still fairly impressive on a 2/1 body for 1 measly white mana.
The singleton Curiosity being too random is a valid point. I've been holding on to that single Feed the Clan in the sideboard for a long time and I'm sure it can come out for Curiosity #2. I rarely run into Burn at my LGS and when I do it's not a tough match up with the Goyf, Mandrills and enough counters to throw off their game. There's a complete lack of BGx in my meta right now, so that's why I can justify only one at the moment. It comes in against combo decks like Twin and Living End, but combo match-ups are already strong.
I'm happy with 4x Simic Charm. I've never run into a situation where it was dead in my hand and with all the new Ulamogs running around, it's helped to foil that cast trigger on many a surprised Tron player. There's A LOT of Tron in my meta right now, so I can completely justify 4 as it's good against Ulamog, Wurmcoil and just for pushing through extra damage for a more aggressive game when I need to finish the game.
Mainboard:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Simic Charm
4 Stubborn Denial
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Thoughtscour
2 Mana Leak
2 Tarfire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Island
1 Forest
Side:
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Firespout
2 Dispel
1 Curiosity
1 Pyroclasm
1 Feed the Clan
That's what I've been rolling with and it's been working pretty excellent for me in my meta.
4-0
4-0
3-0
3-0
2-1-1
2-2
Granted, 2 weeks we only had 8 players, which is why we only went 3 rounds a couple of nights. GBx has become non-existent in my current meta, which certainly hasn't hurt me at all. I'm a little puzzled as to why it's not more played. I also love the look on people's faces when I play Simic Charm. A lot of people need to read the card...The deck's build is so versatile that it really doesn't fold to any strategy straight, although I've found Affinity and Merfolk to be some steep uphill battles, though not unwinnable, especially post-board.
But, the discussions on tech in here have really opened up my mind as far as the game goes and I just wanted to thank everyone involved in progressing the discussion on this thread.
My experience with Huntmaster is that he comes out after your opponent has already wasted resources on your other threats, so by the time he hits the battlefield it's much more likely that they do not have the kill spells to take him down and his long term value is extremely high when he sticks. I've played games against Merfolk where Huntmaster single-handedly wrecked their board. Pia and Kiran don't have that kind of power to turn the game around like that.
I beat Living End round 1. The matches were a steam rolling. Mana Leak and Stubborn Denial made that deck look pretty sad each game.
Round 2 was UR Twin. Simic Charm was an all star this match. Every mode is super relevant. Second game a Gitaxian Probe revealed a 2 Blood Moons. I almost chuckled as they were essentially dead cards against me and he drew nothin but mountains and vents for lands.
Round 3 was Tron. First game I had a super aggressive opener. Flipped a delver first turn and followed up with Goyf. Those two went wild with stubborn denial up to keep sweepers in check. Game 2 was Hooting Mandrills time to shine. One got smoked by an Ugin. I followed up with a second and was able to kill Ugin. Best play of the game was when he cast Ulamog and targeted my goyf and mandrills, but I had simic charm ready. I was able to finish him off next turn with mandrills and goyf attacking with a second simic charm.
I have to say, nothing feels quite like having a Hooting Mandrills in play with a Stubborn Denial in hand.
Oddly, I have a full play set of Disrupting Shoals in the deck, but only drew one once that night. I did use it to blank a remand against the twin match up, but I really want to play the card more, just to understand the correct plays for it better.
The power of tapping out and leading your opponent into a false sense of being able to play a spell with no worries of interaction from you, is huge. It's greatest power is baiting your opponent into casting something they need to play to get ahead that you can counter. When Shoal works, it's great. Shoaling a Aether Vial when you're on the draw against a Merfolk deck can really mess their strategy up bad (and feels really good).
The card's main problem is that you need to know exactly what spells you need to be using it on, way before you have to cast it and you need to hold the correct pitch for it. It's not like a catch-all counter, like Mana Leak or Stubborn Denial both of which will hit most scary cards your opponent can play, even if you hadn't planned on using it on a specific card.
The 2 for 1 aspect never phased me much. I think people have this misconception that card advantage is always a clear path to victory, but that's not the case when dealing with certain strategies. If that was the case, Goblin Guide would see less play. (OMG he lets your opponent draw cards when he attacks). Tempo doesn't necessarily care about ditching a card if it creates a profitable enough tempo swing.
All that being said, I'm not entirely sure I'm sold on the card. Sometimes I love it. Sometimes I hate staring at it, knowing that what I really need is Spell Snare or a Dispel.
I've been a long time follower of this thread and the MonkeyGrow RUG/Temur Delver thread, but finally decided to post.
I've mostly played tempo style decks, but haven't really been too serious about competitive magic and have only recently been playing at LGS FNM events and SCG events near me. I used to play Standard and switched to Modern after the UG Delver deck rotated out, slowly swapping out the Standard version into a Modern playable version and have tinkered with various RUG, UG and UR combinations, so when ashtonkutcher started brewing with Day's Undoing, I decided to use his primer to test it out at a LGS event last week. I had been doing a bit of playtesting with a few friends who played Merfolk, Jund and Grixis Delver before playing in this, so I have a little familiarity with the deck, but still have a long ways to go to learn it!
Just reporting mys results and observations! We played 4 rounds and I went 2-2.
My decklist is essentially Jordan's stock list with a few changes (mostly because of card availability). I was missing 1 Goyf, so I replaced it with one Hooting Mandrills and my fetchlands were less than ideal. My fetch suite included 4 Polluted Delta, 3 Wooded Foothill and 3 Flooded Strand. In my flex spots, I placed a Sleight of Hand and a Tarfire. (When I get a chance, I'll post the actual deck list).
Round 1: vs Infect (1-2)
Round 2: vs Junk (2-0)
Round 3: vs Living End (1-2)
Round 4: RG Breech (2-0)
Vs. Infect
Game 1: I was on the play and had good opener, although slightly threat heavy. I blind-flipped Delver on turn 2 and went straight into a Monastery Swiftspear and Tarfire on his turn 1 Glistener Elf. He never recovered.
Game 2: I struggled to flip my turn one Delver. I ate a little infect damage, while I dug for an answer to his elf. Couldn't find one and ate a Become Immense for the kill.
Game 3: I slung Lightning Bolt at a couple of threats and aggressively lost life fetching and probing and hit 13. I saw 2x Become Immense in his hand, which I didn't really see as a problem, but I wish I had. He dropped a Dryad Arbor and then a double Immense gave him a 13/13 creature with no resistance.
Thoughts: I made a huge error in how I sideboarded. Game 2, I took out my Day's Undoing for my Forked Bolts, which still seems like the right choice. Game 3, I decided to board out Delvers for 4x Snapcaster Mage. I'm not really sure what I was thinking, since there was no reason to switch to a midrange kind of strategy.
Vs. Junk
Game 1: This one dragged on. I was on the draw. Delver ate a Thoughtseize right away, but I drew into double Young Pyromancer. He got some Lingering Souls tokens out, but I chipped away at him with my elementals. I played undoing and drew into straight business (2 bolts and a snag). He only played a Finks after the undoing and I just bounced his Kitchen Finks, attacked with tons of tokens and bolted him twice for lethal.
Game 2: This one went shorter. He took a mulligan to 5 and didn't play any hand disruption. I blind-flipped a Delver and dropped a Young Pyro. Gitaxian Probe revealed that he had Choke, and 2 Lingering Souls. I was actually pretty happy about the Choke, since I had Undoing and a Shoal in hand. He tried playing it on his turn, but Shoal took care of it. After that, I hit him with tokens and Delver through his spirit tokens, eventually getting the win.
Vs. Living End
Game 1: On the play again. I was glad that I had a Disrupting Shoal in my opener after I saw him cycling a minotaur and a Street Wraith right away. I jammed out 2 Swiftspears early on and boosted them with cantrips. He cycled his creatures until he had 3 mana. Then he waited until my next turn to play Violent Outburst during my combat phase. I hit the Living End with Shoal for x=zero and finished the job the next turn with my Swiftspears.
Game 2: I probably should have took a mulligan, but I had 2 goyfs and a Serum Visions+Probe, so I decided to keep. The game went pretty much the same as last one for my opponent, until it was time to cast outburst. This time, I had no answer and struggled to recover with his board full of lame-o 3/4s.
Game 3: I landed a pyromancer turn two and had the Shoal in hand, but I fetched stupidly and didn't have double blue to counter the Living End. I also forgot that countering a spell with cascade doesn't stop the cascade trigger. So, I pitched Undoing to shoal to counter the outburst, but the cascade went off and I got my parts toasted.
Thoughts: This match should have been mine, but I just fetched like a moron on my last game. The second game, I should probably have held back a goyf knowing that I had no answer to Living End. You live. You learn.
Vs. RG Breach
Game 1: On the play again. I originally pegged this as a Scapeshift deck, since I saw an early Valakuut. The first game I got Delver and double Swiftspears out early. I won out of nowhere with my opponent's life total being 13, by casting a chain of spells and pumping Swiftspears. My opponent looked a little dumbfounded when it happened.
Game 2: I ground my opponent down to 1 life. I had Undoing in my hand, with 4 mana. He had a Stormbreath out. At this point I was rather confused as to what my opponent was playing, since he didn't do much in game and still thought I was playing against Scapeshift (albeit a really weird/bad budget version without blue). I decided to roll the dice and play the Undoing, leaving a Steam Vents up. I hit a snag and bounced his creature to push the last damage through.
Thoughts: This round made me realize how insane Swiftspears can be. Taking an opponent from 13 to 0 from out of nowhere on turn 3 by chaining cards like Probes/Visions/Bolts? That's pretty crazy.
Overall thoughts:
I'm cool with how I did. I could've done better had I not made some slip ups, but no game I played felt un-winnable. In fact, I feel if I had played better, I would have won all my rounds. There's some real potential in this deck and it often plays like the UR version with Treasure Cruise. Obviously, cruise is way better, but Undoing often functions as the way to finish out a game when you've run out of gas. I actually didn't have to cast it that often (only twice), but when I did, it won me the game.
Young Pyro and Swiftspear were all-stars. Swiftspear gets big in a hurry and out of nowhere. Goyf was kind of a dingus during my games. He's just a big dumb beast that your opponent sees coming a mile away. He's still great and I'd never not play him purely because of how efficient he is, but he's kind of lackluster in the element of surprise.
The cards that generally frustrate me the most are good old Delver of Secrets (we've always had a love-hate relationship since he got printed) and Disrupting Shoal. The reason being the variance on both of them. I've often toyed with the idea of dropping Delver for something else, because when he doesn't flip, he's kind of a turd. But the pure fact of the matter is, he's such a low mana investment and when he flips, the 3 power with evasion is such a huge tempo swing. A turn 2 blind flip Delver often wins the game. Disrupting Shoal is another card that has high variance. When it's good, it's insanely good. When it's bad...well, I think it has pretty artwork, so at least it's not an eyesore to look at. I had pretty good luck with both of them during my games at my LGS, but in testing, this has not always been the case. I have a feeling that DS is going to be another card that I have a love-hate relationship with.