I did think so as well, until I ran into a wall of UW Spirits. Pretty sure Bant Spirits will play similarly.
Any specific tech you like against them or have you been lucky enough to avoid the matchup?
There were at least 5 spirits players in my 23 player tournament last week.
Torpor Orb still feels too narrow to be worth it (Humans-Merfolk-Spirits, maybe it's enough?), maybe Faerie Macabre can tackle some of their pesky sacrificing spirits, and more EE and brutalities in place of most countermagic since Cavern+Vial make counterspells feel awful...
I think theres just too many things going against us to make the matchup totally favorable... we could do spreading seas to hit their caverns, damping matrix to shut off vial/mausoleum wanderer/selfless spirit, languish to wipe the board around selfless spirit, but all of them leave us open to something they're already running mainboard.
I would like to try archfiend of ifnir. Seems a little more difficult for them to play around. They can hit it with path, but path isn't protected by vial/cavern. They cant dodge it with selfless spirit, and they cant dodge it with hexproof.
Some of the new spells might come in handy, too. Apparently you CAN use as foretold to cast spells with mission briefing. So who knows what that'll play like.
Necrotic Wound, as I already said, it’s simply a bad spell. It goes under every single kind of graveyard hate, pre and postboard, and it’s very situational. We cannot afford to play this kind of solution. If you want removals maindeck, the tutorability of Engineered Explosives is miles better, given we still play at least one Bojuka Bog to complement it. I would even consider narrow things like Reality Shift or Pongify before it (and I’m not suggesting to do so), or simply some Repeals (tested them, very good against many archetypes).
If you feel the card is not playable because it's completely useless when up against graveyard hate, then why are you playing Living End at all? But then again maybe that's why LE, in any form, is not competitive in the current meta
Personally I think it's bad because it can be dead early game and it can be dead late game. Things like goyf will quickly grow out of reach and it, and it will likely not hit bigger late game threats like wurmcoil.
Another potential card to consider today with Mission Briefing, since it's not an alternate cost, we can target an AV or LE and cast it off As Foretold with it. It's a better fit than snapcaster for us, and surveil 2 helps dig as well.
I came just to talk about this new card. It looks very good on first look and works very well with Search for Azcanta. If only we had more ways to discard cards like using Thirst for Knowledge(which is way too slow for us) it would be game breaker!
I am concerned that this card is a Winmore for us:
If we are trying to "reanimate" Living End, this means that we already used it and if we need a second time we are in trouble, in which case this card wont help anyway.
Using it to target Ancestal Vision is not the best case too since AV need to be on our graveyard and As Foretold on our board, we can't use suspend as alternative cost (since suspend says use only if this card is in your hand) and seems like this situation would be good in an already stabilized post-LE moment.
If we are trying to "reanimate" another card, that would be one of our control cards, which is not that good.
What you guys think about that?
I'm not entirely sold on mission briefng as it doesn't hit our most pivotal spells, but it does hit our cryptics. So idk.
I'm more excited about the tutor, for obvious reasons. It definitely benefits us more than other LE lists. The consistency is by far the biggest factor. But I really like the thought of being able to reliably grab a mb surgical extraction. Maybe countersquall if we need to grab a counter.
You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts.
Mortar pod is bad because requiring mana to sac something is inconvenient AF. Killing wave is bad because it gives the opponent a choice which can only help them; it's a sweeper they can choose to ignore. Blasting station and damnation are just better, specifically because they don't have those fundamental problems.
It's fine if you like playing with those cards, but don't fool yourself into thinking that they are optimal for any list. I'd cut the "perfect machine from imperfect parts" mentality.. it doesn't apply in this case. And it's super cringey.
Got to play SCG Regionals this past weekend. Deck did pretty well, would have finished Top 32 at X-2 but I conceded to a friend of mine that I got paired against in the 9th round, as he was paired down to me and had a possibility of Top 8. The key change for what I've been playing was Liliana, the Last Hope. That card was absolutely nuts. Here's the list I played:
- Temple of Malice as a one-of is more useful then not useful. Only extremely rarely is the tapped land source detrimental to the game, but the scry is incredibly valuable, especially when the deck can dig fairly deep with Faithless Looting and Chandra, Torch of Defiance.
- Liliana, the Last Hope is an insanely powerful card and good in many circumstances. It's a win condition in its own right, can oppress any decks that are aggressive, and is better in far more matchups than Liliana of the Veil. Since the deck has a solid Control matchup, LTLH has found a home in the main deck.
- Shattering Spree was not necessary for the sideboard, as the Affinity matchup is actually about 80/20 in our favor when running 2+ Kolaghan's Command, 4 Lightning Bolt, 2+ Terminate, and any number of Fatal Push greater than zero.
- We don't have as many ways to trigger Fatal Push as you would think. 8 fetch lands is not a lot, and getting stuck in positions where a Kalitas or a Kitchen Finks needs to be Fatal Pushed is a bad spot to be in without a fetch land. It's a good card but I don't currently believe we need more than two of them.
- As stated above, the Control matchups are very good. Liliana of the Veil is also seemingly unhelpful in those matchups. This deck requires maximum use of resources, and despite similarities with Jund, does not function as similarly well as a Jund deck with Liliana of the Veil. She is only for niche matchups out of the sideboard currently.
- The 3rd Kolaghan's Command in the maindeck has proven to be an excellent use of a slot. The card is just more powerful as the meta evolves, especially in this deck. Bringing back creatures from the graveyard is a game-winning strategy all too frequently.
- Having 3 Thoughtseize in the sideboard is now necessary because of the return of Abzan Coco, and other ways to help defeat that deck might be useful now. Grafdigger's Cage is an option once again.
- Dreadbore might not be the best option for dealing with Planeswalkers. Currently have that slot, as well as the Hangarback Walker slot (which will likely be removed soon) down to Dreadbore, Hero's Downfall, and To The Slaughter.
That's all I got. For those wondering about my matchup spread, I beat Jeskai Control twice, UB Control, Zoo, and two different Grixis decks. My losses were to Titan Shift and possibly the luckiest sequence I've ever seen from a Kiki Chord player. I'll take it for a day's work.
I'm digging this. I'm trying to get my hands on some LtLH, glad to hear this confirmation. How many would you say is justifiable maindeck?
I'm new to this archetype so this might be a stupid question, but how good is demigod? It's something I've always wanted to play, but assumed he was suboptimal and never committed. And how has bedlam reveler been treating you?
Hi Guys, I'd like to ask a question regarding the RW 'Sun and Moon' list with 4x SSG, 4x Chalice, 4x Moon. Do you think its better positioned then the list that popped up over the weekend that comprises Walls, Restos and Kiki's (No SSG or Chalice)? I have basically all the cards for the later deck and have made some changes. I' ve played a few games on cockatrice and enjoy it. Please give me some feedback -cheers..
//Creatures
4 Restoration Angel
4 Wall of Omens
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//PWs
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Ajani Vengeant
//Removal
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chained to the Rocks
3 Anger of the Gods
//Other
4 Blood Moon
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
I do like the idea here.. one of the issues I have with the more common "sun and moon" lists is their lopsided matchups. Like ssg into chalice is a free win in some matchups, and dead cards in others. I also think having do deal with nahiri + poor man's twin could be a real pain in the ass for the opponent.
His list is not traditional control or sweeper control it is literally eldrazi.he runs a lot of ways to exile your cards like path, Though-knot, spell queller, ever then BW creature that exiles from you hand, he then also runs the eldrazi displacer for flicker, the 4CMC eldrazi that is a counterspell by putting 2 cards from exile into he GY and the other eldrazi that puts from exile to GY and gives a creatures -3/-3 . It is not the most powerful deck but throw in Aether Vials and Caverb of souls. Generally I cannot kill anything as it can be spell quelled or countered, he has the hand disruption with bodies attached and when he gets a few creatures on board attacking though without Angel or Elsoeth is hard and easily swing back for the same or worse dmg.
Like I said I don't mind loosing but man I loose bad to him, even our U-torn player can't do anything. I also know even without this deck i do still need to make some modifications to be where I want the list so I still need to decide replacements for my slots.
Sounds like BW processors, splashing blue for spell queller. Esper processors? Seems legit. The BW version isn't bad, it just has similar odds against the field to bant eldrazi, but is poorly positioned against the bant version, making it statistically worse. It's like bant, but trades speed and size for interaction.
Unfortunately, since processors is a fairly fringe deck, I'm not sure how much advice there is on the matchup... The aether vial gives it a eldrazi taxes feel, so that might be a better comparison, and should be more common.
If the deck is that common in your meta, I'd recommend supreme verdicts in the side. It still gets grabbed by spell queller, but knowing that, it would probably be wise to hold your spot removal for him. Also, running disinchants for the vials and skullers. Maybe run hushwing gryff or torpor orb? The deck is built around etb creatures... it wouldn't stop them from killing you, but it might allow you some breathing room to stop them.
To be honest, though, I don't think much can be done to put the matchup completely in your favor. Midrange fair decks are eldrazi's favorite breakfast.
A turn 2 stony silence makes Tron a very winnable game. Also Ajani is very good against Tron as he can tap down a Tron land, and if he gets to his ultimate that's GG.
With how good stony silence is against Tron, Affinity, and lantern control I'd run 2-3.
Yeah, Stony Silence is good against lots of things. It also hates on Thopter-Sword.
Regarding the Ajani vs Tron, I don't think it's very good as you said... Tapping a land doesn't break the Tron, BCS it taps a Urza's Tower in turns 4, 5, 6 and 7 and then ultimates on turn 8... that's 2 turns slower than Nahiri-->Emrakul. Both ultimates are GG against Tron, but one is faster
Tron is the reason I want to try boom//bust.. on top of boom being essentially sinkhole.
I would definitely consider some delve fatties to utilize the graveyard some. Angler over tassigur, since his ability is dead in mardu. Totally agree with kalitas, at least somewhere in the 75.
Not so sold on myth realized. The great thing about BB and lingering souls is they make 1-1 removal useless. With myth realized, that thing will just eat whatever path/GftT/terminate they've been holding on to the entire game. At least BB leaves some dudes behind if it doesn't get Abrupt Decayed immediately.
I like this. Mentor and BB are both cards I desperately want to sleeve up.
I would also consider Grave Titan and Batterskull in place of Emrakul. Slapping Batterskull on endless flyers closes out games fast, as does a 6/6 death touch that leaves 4 zombies on field after swinging off Nahiri. And they're castable without Nahiri if she gets shut down.
I have just recently started playing batterskull and have liked it. I can't search it up with Nahiri though.
Nahiri ult reads "search library for an ARTIFACT or creature"
I like this. Mentor and BB are both cards I desperately want to sleeve up.
I would also consider Grave Titan and Batterskull in place of Emrakul. Slapping Batterskull on endless flyers closes out games fast, as does a 6/6 death touch that leaves 4 zombies on field after swinging off Nahiri. And they're castable without Nahiri if she gets shut down.
Maybe i should get more into Vengevine territory with my BUG List?
Also Stitchwing Skaab has been really great in my initial testings.
It bumps Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam to the bin, which gives my plenty of Gas in the first couple of turns.
Yea, I see what you're saying. If everything you have comes back on its own, relentless dead doesn't bring enough to the table. I do think dredgevine is more of the direction you're going for. Like horse suit dog guy said, the deck we're going for wants to use the graveyard without entirely relying on it.
I think theres just too many things going against us to make the matchup totally favorable... we could do spreading seas to hit their caverns, damping matrix to shut off vial/mausoleum wanderer/selfless spirit, languish to wipe the board around selfless spirit, but all of them leave us open to something they're already running mainboard.
I would like to try archfiend of ifnir. Seems a little more difficult for them to play around. They can hit it with path, but path isn't protected by vial/cavern. They cant dodge it with selfless spirit, and they cant dodge it with hexproof.
Some of the new spells might come in handy, too. Apparently you CAN use as foretold to cast spells with mission briefing. So who knows what that'll play like.
Personally I think it's bad because it can be dead early game and it can be dead late game. Things like goyf will quickly grow out of reach and it, and it will likely not hit bigger late game threats like wurmcoil.
It's just too conditional.
I'm not entirely sold on mission briefng as it doesn't hit our most pivotal spells, but it does hit our cryptics. So idk.
I'm more excited about the tutor, for obvious reasons. It definitely benefits us more than other LE lists. The consistency is by far the biggest factor. But I really like the thought of being able to reliably grab a mb surgical extraction. Maybe countersquall if we need to grab a counter.
Mortar pod is bad because requiring mana to sac something is inconvenient AF. Killing wave is bad because it gives the opponent a choice which can only help them; it's a sweeper they can choose to ignore. Blasting station and damnation are just better, specifically because they don't have those fundamental problems.
It's fine if you like playing with those cards, but don't fool yourself into thinking that they are optimal for any list. I'd cut the "perfect machine from imperfect parts" mentality.. it doesn't apply in this case. And it's super cringey.
I'm digging this. I'm trying to get my hands on some LtLH, glad to hear this confirmation. How many would you say is justifiable maindeck?
I'm new to this archetype so this might be a stupid question, but how good is demigod? It's something I've always wanted to play, but assumed he was suboptimal and never committed. And how has bedlam reveler been treating you?
I do like the idea here.. one of the issues I have with the more common "sun and moon" lists is their lopsided matchups. Like ssg into chalice is a free win in some matchups, and dead cards in others. I also think having do deal with nahiri + poor man's twin could be a real pain in the ass for the opponent.
Sounds like BW processors, splashing blue for spell queller. Esper processors? Seems legit. The BW version isn't bad, it just has similar odds against the field to bant eldrazi, but is poorly positioned against the bant version, making it statistically worse. It's like bant, but trades speed and size for interaction.
Unfortunately, since processors is a fairly fringe deck, I'm not sure how much advice there is on the matchup... The aether vial gives it a eldrazi taxes feel, so that might be a better comparison, and should be more common.
If the deck is that common in your meta, I'd recommend supreme verdicts in the side. It still gets grabbed by spell queller, but knowing that, it would probably be wise to hold your spot removal for him. Also, running disinchants for the vials and skullers. Maybe run hushwing gryff or torpor orb? The deck is built around etb creatures... it wouldn't stop them from killing you, but it might allow you some breathing room to stop them.
To be honest, though, I don't think much can be done to put the matchup completely in your favor. Midrange fair decks are eldrazi's favorite breakfast.
Tron is the reason I want to try boom//bust.. on top of boom being essentially sinkhole.
I would definitely consider some delve fatties to utilize the graveyard some. Angler over tassigur, since his ability is dead in mardu. Totally agree with kalitas, at least somewhere in the 75.
Not so sold on myth realized. The great thing about BB and lingering souls is they make 1-1 removal useless. With myth realized, that thing will just eat whatever path/GftT/terminate they've been holding on to the entire game. At least BB leaves some dudes behind if it doesn't get Abrupt Decayed immediately.
Nahiri ult reads "search library for an ARTIFACT or creature"
I would also consider Grave Titan and Batterskull in place of Emrakul. Slapping Batterskull on endless flyers closes out games fast, as does a 6/6 death touch that leaves 4 zombies on field after swinging off Nahiri. And they're castable without Nahiri if she gets shut down.
Yea, I see what you're saying. If everything you have comes back on its own, relentless dead doesn't bring enough to the table. I do think dredgevine is more of the direction you're going for. Like horse suit dog guy said, the deck we're going for wants to use the graveyard without entirely relying on it.