Lets talk about champion. When is he good? Im talking vs actually good decks. Obviously every card is good vs bad decks but when is champion good vs, say, mono red? He has no evasion or card advantage. What do you think?
Also, Ive been struggling a bit more lately...probly around a 50% win rate which is fine but not what I was doing earlier. Im wondering if Krassis could be a good sideboard slot vs midrange
I don't think Champion is ever really great, but is it better than Pteramander in this deck? Situationally probably.
Krasis could be a decent sideboard card, but we'll never be playing it for as much as decks like Sultai do. I can see casting it for 4-6 mana, drawing and gaining 1-3 and getting a 2/2-4/4 flample. Not bad if we can protect it, but definitely a late game card.
So between the last two posts, there seems to be a creature heavy deck and a more spell based version. He is my problem with the 12 creature version. Pteramander rewards you for casting lots instants/sorceries which also goes well with drakes. However, if you are busy adapting Growth Chamber or countering with Mystic, then Pteramander won't adapt soon. When I was playing with those cards I found that many times I didnt have a clock, so was just a bad control deck.
Pteramander might be better in a more spell-focused shell, maybe Izzet Drakes with Arclight Phoenix. I've been trying to find something that might replace it, but the only option I've come up with is Deeproot Champion. It's not ideal, but it's a threat that grows while we're doing what we want to do anyway.
Adapt is an ability that fits right into what we want to do with the deck as it's instant speed and increases our options. It allows us to play an early body, protect it, and present a threat when we're ready. Guardian also happens to find more of itself which is an incredible upside.
Pteramander was almost always a 1/1 for me. It wasn't the damage it dealt as much as the threat of Adapting and that damage. It threw off their combat math because I had so many options to respond with which is why I'm also considering Lightning Strike. They know I can't remove threats on their turn with Lava Coil so they can focus on avoiding counters. The only threats that are a potential problem then are Drakes and Rekindling Phoenix, neither of which are as prevalent as they once were. This deck wins on the back your of opponents mistakes which they make because they don't know how we'll interact on their turn.
I'm also considering Spell Pierce, but I have no idea what I'd remove for them.
Can you post your decklist? Is it the same as the original decklist? I feel like a tempo deck like this cannot function without cheap counters like Spell Pierce or Dive Down. I'm not playing Dive Down at the moment, but pierce has been one of the deck's mvps
Here's what I have right now. I agree that Spell Pierce probably deserves a spot, but over what I can't say. Syncopate is another card that keeps popping up on my radar. It seems like it has potential up and down the curve. Everything has proven valuable at times with potentially Risk Factor and Pteramander being the weakest.
I've been testing the OP's version with only slight modifications for a little now. I've played Mono White, Boros, Orzhov Knights, Abzan Knights, Abzan Life Gain, Mono Blue, UW Control, and Walls. Still haven't played Mono Red Aggro, Mono Red Burn, Golgari, or Sultai. With the recent GP results it looks like Sultai and Mono Red are the decks to beat.
In the games I've played I've occassionally been light on mana and sometimes just wish for a Spell Pierce or that Lava Coil was Lightning Strike for the instant-speed interaction.
Has anyone else felt similarly? Are there any changes the deck needs to combat Sultai?
I'm thinking of switching Coil to Strike too. There are a few x/4 creatures, like drakes, but not many. Have you felt that version was powerful? How has pteramander? I've only had it been a 5/5 twice I think.
Pteramander was almost always a 1/1 for me. It wasn't the damage it dealt as much as the threat of Adapting and that damage. It threw off their combat math because I had so many options to respond with which is why I'm also considering Lightning Strike. They know I can't remove threats on their turn with Lava Coil so they can focus on avoiding counters. The only threats that are a potential problem then are Drakes and Rekindling Phoenix, neither of which are as prevalent as they once were. This deck wins on the back your of opponents mistakes which they make because they don't know how we'll interact on their turn.
I'm also considering Spell Pierce, but I have no idea what I'd remove for them.
I've been testing the OP's version with only slight modifications for a little now. I've played Mono White, Boros, Orzhov Knights, Abzan Knights, Abzan Life Gain, Mono Blue, UW Control, and Walls. Still haven't played Mono Red Aggro, Mono Red Burn, Golgari, or Sultai. With the recent GP results it looks like Sultai and Mono Red are the decks to beat.
In the games I've played I've occassionally been light on mana and sometimes just wish for a Spell Pierce or that Lava Coil was Lightning Strike for the instant-speed interaction.
Has anyone else felt similarly? Are there any changes the deck needs to combat Sultai?
Hey everyone, I know the rules say to PM someone about getting something made, but I don't know where to start. I have a friend who's a dastardly SOB and I'd like to get him a custom Nicol Bolas (not entirely sure which version) 3D life counter.
Has anyone done this before? Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks.
I've found life gain to be pretty important to the deck, that's why I run Glory-Bound Initiate in addition to Sacred Cat. Against any red variant it can mean the difference between winning and losing. I've also considered Squire's Devotion, but I really don't think it's good enough.
I've been running an Esper list that's primarily white, but splashes blue and black. I run Daring Saboteur, Warkite Marauder, Kitesail Freebooter, and Glory-Bound Initiate instead of Sacred Cat, Skymarcher Aspirant, Temmet, Oketra, Legion's Landing, Slither Blade, Unsummon, etc. I also run Cartouche of Ambition and Fatal Push. The mana base is definitely shaky at times and I'm definitely still working on it, but it works relatively smoothly more often than not.
Once I'm home from work I plan on typing up my FNM results from last night with a decklist.
I run a 3-3 split of Merfolk Branchwalker and Seekers' Squire along with Jadelight Ranger as my explore creatures. Splitting the two drops allows my mana to be a bit more flexible and to get bodies down more consistently on turn two since using them to stop or slow aggro is so important. It also allows a turn three Ranger or Deathgorge to be more useful.
I'm running 24 lands without any ramp and I feel like that's currently the right number. I've considered 23 with all of the explore I have, but I'm not sure yet.
I agree that Scrounger is a value card that we really want in the deck. I think others are using Heart as another flyer to get in damage and block and potentially help with flying vampires.
It's the best consistency that I've worked out so far, but it's not as solid as I'd prefer. If only Jadelight Ranger or Vraska's Contempt weren't so good...
I've been looking at some MTGO lists that run Heart of Kiran and Scrapheap Scrounger along with Rhonas the Indomitable. Scrounger can crew Heart which then lets Rhonas attack and it can also be used on defense to allow Rhonas and Heart to block. Scrapheap is also another creature that's tough to deal with along the lines of Phoenix (not as good obviously), but can utilize creatures in our graveyard that we really have no way to utilize and as a bonus it can remove targets for Scarab God in those match ups. I think this makes the deck much more creature-centered at the cost of some utility spells. Thoughts?
I've had a Doran, the Siege Tower deck that I've built and taken apart several times. It's always been Treefolk tribal because beating people senseless with Treefolk is hilarious, but the deck had a lot of trouble winning. I've decided to remake the deck, but instead focus it on Doran Voltron. I have a working decklist, but it's way too bloated so it's time to trim it. What should I remove?
Rumpy5987 and Life1less: I generally want to avoid using green as I already use it several decks. I've considered Sigarda, and while she may be better than some of my other choices, I'm not really looking for her color combination. Same thing goes for Thrun. Thromokratis would also be pretty interesting, but I already have a mono-blue deck in Muzzio.
bobthefunny: Shun Yun looks fun to play, but he doesn't have evasion built in and he only gives double strike if I pay extra for every spell I cast. That might be ok with a lot of cheap buffs or auras, but why do that when I can use equipment to grant it to him permanently?
MRHblue: I've tried Doran in the form of Treefolk tribal and while it's as cool as it sounds, it never really got there. Treefolk need help really getting though to hit players. That said, I've never tried Doran voltron before. It might be an option, though he lacks any sort of built in evasion which means I'd have to get it on him quickly. I do enjoy how he messes with combat though.
Hunting Gjornersen and Johnny Degenerate: I definitely want to take as many extra combat steps as I can as part of the fun, but I don't want to take tons of extra turns or really slow down the game like that. That's why I'm leaning towards Aurelia or Godo. How often did you miss on her attack trigger if your build was creatureless? It seems like you'd be able to cast pretty much anything but lands. I think a handful of creatures would be pretty useful and could see exiling them from time to time with her trigger. Why did it get more difficult to hit players after a few attacks?
Everyone else: I think Aurelia gives more access to extra combat steps easier than Godo, and she lets me attack with whatever I have if I want or to use untap abilities multiple times. I do agree that being 6cmc could make the deck slower, though maybe I can make that up with mana rocks.
bobthefunny: Really digging that pro's and cons list - thanks. Makes me want to build Aurelia and toss in Godo just for fun.
barrencapuccino and life1ess: Kemba is one I hadn't even thought of. I'm not a huge fan of mono white though. The reason I lean towards mono red is because it can be bonkers. If I do go with Godo and mono red, I want to avoid Wildfire type effects because while the damage is decent for a board wipe, MLD is something we tend to avoid. We've cycled through casual-competitive-back to casual in my playgroup.
Forgotten One, Vashbismark, and Zordrath: I want to avoid Rafiq for a few reasons. I already run two decks that use blue (Muzzio and Ezuri) so I'd prefer not to use blue in another deck. I also think Rafiq can be broken too easily (just like Narset, I suppose). He gets pretty mean pretty quickly. I'm leaning towards red to abuse multiple combat phases as well, and Rafiq doesn't ave access to it (though he doesn't really need it). Shun Yun seems like Rafiq lite and can use red which is more what I'm looking for. I hadn't considered him either so I'll have to do some research into it.
Macabre: Those are definitely unique general choices. I agree that cost and built in evasion are key characteristics of a voltron general, but I don't think multiplayer generals need to cost 4cmc or less, though it'd certainly make them more aggressive (I considered Mina and Denn, Wildborn). I like that Aurelia has a TON of evasion built in. No one around me plays 1v1 EDH so generals like that probably wouldn't work great. My first general was Karn, Silver Golem and it was a mean, mean deck, but fun (for me) and unique since no one else played him. Admittedly, Godo and Aurelia are probably good for slow 1v1.
Definitely leaning towards Aurelia, but still have some things to consider. Thanks guys!
Recently, my local group has been playing decks that are pretty slow and our four-player games can take around 90 minutes. I'm looking to speed that up with a voltron deck that not only puts people on clocks, but that can also survive taking down multiple opponents.
I'm stuck between Godo, Bandit Warlord, Aurelia, the Warleader, and Narset, Enlightened Master. Obviously, color choice affects a lot so Godo being mono-red might be it's biggest draw back. However, I also feel like Narset is so easily broken that a more friendly deck might automatically be targeted.
Regardless of which I end up using, the general game plan is ramp into general, equip general, smash face. The differences come in the support cards and colors.
I don't think Champion is ever really great, but is it better than Pteramander in this deck? Situationally probably.
Krasis could be a decent sideboard card, but we'll never be playing it for as much as decks like Sultai do. I can see casting it for 4-6 mana, drawing and gaining 1-3 and getting a 2/2-4/4 flample. Not bad if we can protect it, but definitely a late game card.
Pteramander might be better in a more spell-focused shell, maybe Izzet Drakes with Arclight Phoenix. I've been trying to find something that might replace it, but the only option I've come up with is Deeproot Champion. It's not ideal, but it's a threat that grows while we're doing what we want to do anyway.
Adapt is an ability that fits right into what we want to do with the deck as it's instant speed and increases our options. It allows us to play an early body, protect it, and present a threat when we're ready. Guardian also happens to find more of itself which is an incredible upside.
Here's what I have right now. I agree that Spell Pierce probably deserves a spot, but over what I can't say. Syncopate is another card that keeps popping up on my radar. It seems like it has potential up and down the curve. Everything has proven valuable at times with potentially Risk Factor and Pteramander being the weakest.
Land: 23
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Steam Vents
3 Stomping Ground
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Rootbound Crag
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures: 12
4 Pteramander
4 Growth-Chamber Guardian
4 Frilled Mystic
Other Spells: 25
3 Ionize
4 Opt
4 Chart A Course
4 Lightning Strike
3 Risk Factor
3 Dive Down
4 Shock
Sideboard: 15
3 Carnage Tyrant
3 Fiery Cannonade
2 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
3 Lava Coil
2 Crushing Canopy
Pteramander was almost always a 1/1 for me. It wasn't the damage it dealt as much as the threat of Adapting and that damage. It threw off their combat math because I had so many options to respond with which is why I'm also considering Lightning Strike. They know I can't remove threats on their turn with Lava Coil so they can focus on avoiding counters. The only threats that are a potential problem then are Drakes and Rekindling Phoenix, neither of which are as prevalent as they once were. This deck wins on the back your of opponents mistakes which they make because they don't know how we'll interact on their turn.
I'm also considering Spell Pierce, but I have no idea what I'd remove for them.
In the games I've played I've occassionally been light on mana and sometimes just wish for a Spell Pierce or that Lava Coil was Lightning Strike for the instant-speed interaction.
Has anyone else felt similarly? Are there any changes the deck needs to combat Sultai?
Has anyone done this before? Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks.
Once I'm home from work I plan on typing up my FNM results from last night with a decklist.
I'm running 24 lands without any ramp and I feel like that's currently the right number. I've considered 23 with all of the explore I have, but I'm not sure yet.
The mana base is definitely an issue. Right now, this is where I'm at:
4 Blooming March
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Canyon Slough
2 Sheltered Thicket
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
It's the best consistency that I've worked out so far, but it's not as solid as I'd prefer. If only Jadelight Ranger or Vraska's Contempt weren't so good...
Land:
Savannah
Bayou
Scrubland
Verdant Catacombs
Windswept Heath
Marsh Flats
Godless Shrine
Overgrown Tomb
Temple Garden
Fetid Heath
Twilight Mire
Wooded Bastion
Sunpetal Grove
Isolated Chapel
Woodland Cemetery
Terramorphic Expanse
Evolving Wilds
Krosan Verge
Rogue's Passage
Command Tower
Murmuring Bosk
Kor Haven
Volrath's Stronghold
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures:
Sunblast Angel
Silent Arbiter
Vhati il-Dal
Timber Protector
Stoneforge Mystic
Leonin Shikari
Leonin Abunas
Treefolk Harbinger
Puresteel Paladin
Angel of Serenity
Silklash Spider
Sun Titan
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Bosk Banneret
Deadwood Treefolk
Angel of Despair
Ashen Rider
Marble Titan
Mother of Runes
Equipment:
Kusari-Gama
Slagwurm Armor
Behemoth Sledge
Kite Shield
Magebane Armor
Darksteel Plate
Whispersilk Cloak
Fireshrieker
Accorder's Shield
Spidersilk Net
Grappling Hook
Lightning Greaves
Swiftfoot Boots
Nim Deathmantle
Auras:
Eland Umbra
Bear Umbra
Snake Umbra
Lignify
Angelic Destiny
Gift of Immortality
Enchantments:
Spidersilk Net
Mirari's Wake
Asceticism
Mana Reflections
Pernicious Deed
No Mercy
Removal:
Crib Swap
Putrefy
Swords to Plowshares
Unmake
Beast Within
Oblation
Path to Exile
Mortify
Wrath of God
Damnation
Krosan Grip
Fracturing Gust
Abrupt Decay
Return to Dust
Utter End
Sever the Bloodline
Decree of Pain
Artifacts:
Belbe's Armor
Exoskeleton
Meekstone
Ensnaring Bridge
Card Advantage:
Steelshaper's Gift
Worldly Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Green Sun's Zenith
Mana:
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Explosive
Vegetation
Skyshroud Claim
Farseek
Ranger's Path
Edit: I can't get the DECk tags to create a decklist so I'm trying another way.
bobthefunny: Shun Yun looks fun to play, but he doesn't have evasion built in and he only gives double strike if I pay extra for every spell I cast. That might be ok with a lot of cheap buffs or auras, but why do that when I can use equipment to grant it to him permanently?
MRHblue: I've tried Doran in the form of Treefolk tribal and while it's as cool as it sounds, it never really got there. Treefolk need help really getting though to hit players. That said, I've never tried Doran voltron before. It might be an option, though he lacks any sort of built in evasion which means I'd have to get it on him quickly. I do enjoy how he messes with combat though.
Hunting Gjornersen and Johnny Degenerate: I definitely want to take as many extra combat steps as I can as part of the fun, but I don't want to take tons of extra turns or really slow down the game like that. That's why I'm leaning towards Aurelia or Godo. How often did you miss on her attack trigger if your build was creatureless? It seems like you'd be able to cast pretty much anything but lands. I think a handful of creatures would be pretty useful and could see exiling them from time to time with her trigger. Why did it get more difficult to hit players after a few attacks?
Everyone else: I think Aurelia gives more access to extra combat steps easier than Godo, and she lets me attack with whatever I have if I want or to use untap abilities multiple times. I do agree that being 6cmc could make the deck slower, though maybe I can make that up with mana rocks.
barrencapuccino and life1ess: Kemba is one I hadn't even thought of. I'm not a huge fan of mono white though. The reason I lean towards mono red is because it can be bonkers. If I do go with Godo and mono red, I want to avoid Wildfire type effects because while the damage is decent for a board wipe, MLD is something we tend to avoid. We've cycled through casual-competitive-back to casual in my playgroup.
Forgotten One, Vashbismark, and Zordrath: I want to avoid Rafiq for a few reasons. I already run two decks that use blue (Muzzio and Ezuri) so I'd prefer not to use blue in another deck. I also think Rafiq can be broken too easily (just like Narset, I suppose). He gets pretty mean pretty quickly. I'm leaning towards red to abuse multiple combat phases as well, and Rafiq doesn't ave access to it (though he doesn't really need it). Shun Yun seems like Rafiq lite and can use red which is more what I'm looking for. I hadn't considered him either so I'll have to do some research into it.
Macabre: Those are definitely unique general choices. I agree that cost and built in evasion are key characteristics of a voltron general, but I don't think multiplayer generals need to cost 4cmc or less, though it'd certainly make them more aggressive (I considered Mina and Denn, Wildborn). I like that Aurelia has a TON of evasion built in. No one around me plays 1v1 EDH so generals like that probably wouldn't work great. My first general was Karn, Silver Golem and it was a mean, mean deck, but fun (for me) and unique since no one else played him. Admittedly, Godo and Aurelia are probably good for slow 1v1.
Definitely leaning towards Aurelia, but still have some things to consider. Thanks guys!
I'm stuck between Godo, Bandit Warlord, Aurelia, the Warleader, and Narset, Enlightened Master. Obviously, color choice affects a lot so Godo being mono-red might be it's biggest draw back. However, I also feel like Narset is so easily broken that a more friendly deck might automatically be targeted.
Regardless of which I end up using, the general game plan is ramp into general, equip general, smash face. The differences come in the support cards and colors.
Thoughts?