I'm inclined to just run 1 devoted druid and 1 *maybe* 2 recruiters to keep the opportunity cost as low as possible. Something similar to above. Hell, I'd probably only run 1 Devoted druid because it's a large downgrade from Wall of Roots.(Side note: I despise kataki & canonist but that's another discussion)
If anything, I would want to make the deck more robust against Surgical targeting Vizier, but replacing a number of them with Anafenza hurts the primary combo...and having more than 4 -1/-1 stoppers seems excessive. It can be played around using instant-speed Witness, of course...wait, someone mentioned RIP as a new option, and it incidentally stops Surgical, as well.
I like that quite a bit, actually. Most of the decks using Surgical care about the quantity of cards in the graveyard...that is why they run the card in the first place.
If you're referring to my suggestion of a 1-of Rallier. It's pretty common to have at least 1 so you can scry to it as protection against discuption(doesnt matter if they remove seer or anafenza/melira/vizier because rallier can get them all back)
I would go -1 eternal witness +1 rallier. Good to have it in the deck to recurr a combo piece if necessary.
Upon thinking further. I think it's definitely worth splashing black for Viscera seer at the very least like this list shows. Infinite scry is just so powerful.
I wouldn't say our matchup becomes abysmal considering we're essentially become much faster combo wise. You can go off turn 3 very easily with this deck, something abzan coco was not as good at. Also yeah, you can splash black, one overgrown tomb wouldn't hurt if you wanted to add some sideboard cards. But you're also gaining Rest In Peace by not having the combo, and Rest In Peace I find really good right now against Deaths shadow decks. Also we are much less vulnerable to blood moon by being 2 colors, and a black splash would be very easy, even swap birds for nobles. I just find that I don't need black, deck functions fine without it.
Let us know when you take it to an event. I'd be interested in seeing how it plays out. Going 2 color for more consistent mana and blood moon protection is very attractice.(also I could play a 3rd gavony township one of my favorite cards)
I'm gonna test it myself on xmage once they add amonkhent. Can you put your list here?
My deck consists of 10 cards I can use to go infinite while they're in hand. 4 Duskwatch Recruiter 4 Chord of Calling, and 2 Walking ballista. Reasonably we always have 1 of those in hand, it's 1/6 cards in our deck, in playtesting I don't recall a single time I would have rather chorded for a seer than my infinite combo
You have to remember what you give up by cutting black in terms of sideboard as well. No Fulminators, no Pontiff, no discard(not as big but thoughtseize is common) No Sculler/Sin Collecter. Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse. Your matchup against combo becomes abysmal. All you have is, what, canonist and eidolon?
It's worth testing and bringing to events but I'm definitely skeptical.
You coco or chord for duskwatch recruiter who draws your whole deck or you play ballista from hand
Ah, that makes more sense. I don't think it's necessarily batter than any of the melira combos(remember you lose the infinite bolster combo cutting black). It'd be interesting if this allow GW company to be a decent deck(instead of just some random thing Todd Stevens does)
I've cut black from the deck entirely. The melira combo is essentially worse than this combo in every single way. It doesn't even make sense to run the melira combo in your deck considering how bad it is now. Real excited about this though, also remember to bring an alternative to walking ballista so you can get around stony silence
I d rather cut Anafenza than Melira, because Anafenza is harder on the mana and Melira actually helps a lot against Infect (how high do you guys value the +1 +1 counters from Anafenza?)
Payoff should probably be something that can be chorded for so that you have virtual 5 ways to find it. My first thought was emrakul, but you dont get the extra turn when you chord for him (still might be enough, but maybe we can do better)
Cutting Anafenza is a big no-no. She's hard on the mana but the +1 +1 counters from her is reliably contributes to the beatdown plan(which is our primary plan before combo in most matchups). She also provides infinite bolster triggers with Melira. Never cut her.
I'm gonna veto both your options. It's not worth running *****ty cards that aren't at least decent by themselves for this combo because it's not a particularly strong combo really. What makes it worth playing at all is that the opportunity cost is so low(that all 3 creatures are reasonable by themselves) That's why Duskwatch Recruiter is really the best payoff AFAIK because that card's actually going to do something if you don't assemble the fragile 3 creature combo that's easily disrupted.(Who the hell wants an Invoker or Emrakul stuck in there hand?)
100% do not run more than 1 of each. This is a backup combo because it's far less of an instant game-win than any others. Like I said, it needs to be as low impact as possible on the rest of the list because the payoff isn't instantly winning the game. Hence why I think only 1 of each.(ESPECIALLY only 1 devoted druid, Wall of Roots is an immensely useful card that is miles ahead of Devoted Druid)
Would a single Genesis Wave be a possible consideration? Doesn't quite fit the overall gameplan of the deck being creature heavy, but would be nice to flood the board and hit all the combo pieces you needed.
On a different note, does Saffi Eriksdotter have any place in the deck? Have people tried and tested it? Any results?
Genesis Wave actually crossed my mind. It's cute but the payoff card has to be something that's reasonable to begin with. Genesis Wave is ***** even at 7-9 mana. Duskwatch Recruiter is a reasonable card to play by itself.
Vizier of Remedies combos with Devoted Druid to make infinite Green mana.
Good point.
What, like,
-1 Melira
-1 Wall of Roots I guess
-1 something
+1 Vizier
+1 Devoted Druid
+1 infinite mana payoff?
Assuming the payoff is some sort of infinite damage, it would be infinite dmg that doesn't use the graveyard or the combat step which is something I don't believe we had access to before.
Maybe it'd be something like Duskwatch Recruiter for card advantage? It's not like the cost to play the combo is high. They're all cards that aren't the most unreasonable to play just normally.(I've seen lists get results with Recruiter)
I aggree it has some advantages over flickerwisp even though it cannot manage a kalitas before starting combo. And also it has no effect if we find it via collected company at end of turn. Therefore I doubt it will see play.
I'll be so happy the day we will have have a really good creature with removal when it enters the battlefield and cost <= 3... Up to now all creatures of this type have too big drawbacks
Hmm? What are you talking about? As long as something has attacked or blocked that turn you can flicker it with this. It's not "attacking or blocking".
Edit: full spoiler out
Looks like there's a budget replacement for melira or something
I don't see any reason to play this over Melira though in terms of power reasons.
Interesting effect. Don't see how it's any better than Rallier though.
Unless I missed something, those are the only ones I think could contribute anything to the deck.
I'm inclined to favor it over flickerwisp. It can't hit non-creature permanents but it has flash by itself and it's easier to cast(not that getting WW is the hardest thing). On the other hand, it's much much worse in combat than Flickerwisp. 3 power in the air is a strong clock. 2/2 not so much. I don't know how much of a restriction the attacking/blocking part is for creatures. Seems like an easy requirement to meet in most cases.
Overall the main advantage it has over flickerwisp is not requiring coco to gain instant speed.(which I think is a fairly strong plus)
Way too much trouble for what amounts to a goyf with indestructible and evasion. The sac is super expensive(for modern) and the payoff is ultimately just a beatstick and it's not like we can freely sac something every turn to turn this thing on. I'd rather just play goyf.
In other news, just played against blue moon and I think I gained the most life ever in 1 game from finks without any combo. Drew all 4 Finks, cast all 4 finks, got back a finks with e-wit. 2 Persist triggers for a total of 14 life.
Super weird game 3 in general. Game stalled out until we were both in 7-8 lands. They hardcast Platinum Emperion and a turn later had a Clique. I'm barely surviving off the life gain from all the finks and(at that point) 1 Angel swing. They tapped my board with cryptic and hit me with emperion and dropped me for 2. Dunno why they did that considering it wasn't enough to kill me and they were better served to bounce angel so they could get in with their Clique. I draw and play Courser and my Finks, Angel, and over the course of the next 2-3 turns(Opponent can't attack cause at this point my board is large enough to kill Emperion) my board gets absolutely massive from the life triggers from Courser after ripping multiple fetch lands off the top. After that I naturally drew into Spike Feeder and they conceded to infinite life(Oppo figured I would eventually draw into enough e wits and maelstrom pulses to kill emperion)
During almost the entire lategame I had a Distended Mindbender in hand I couldn't cast due to BB cost and fetching for basics early to play around blood moon.
I also killed a Threads of Disloyalty with Rec Sage. That was fun.
Any advice for sideboarding against the various death's shadow flavors? Do I board it like a midrange matchups so I should board out the mana dorks? Do I board out grindy midrange stuff like eternal witness/rallier?
I'm inclined to just run 1 devoted druid and 1 *maybe* 2 recruiters to keep the opportunity cost as low as possible. Something similar to above. Hell, I'd probably only run 1 Devoted druid because it's a large downgrade from Wall of Roots.(Side note: I despise kataki & canonist but that's another discussion)
If you're referring to my suggestion of a 1-of Rallier. It's pretty common to have at least 1 so you can scry to it as protection against discuption(doesnt matter if they remove seer or anafenza/melira/vizier because rallier can get them all back)
Upon thinking further. I think it's definitely worth splashing black for Viscera seer at the very least like this list shows. Infinite scry is just so powerful.
Let us know when you take it to an event. I'd be interested in seeing how it plays out. Going 2 color for more consistent mana and blood moon protection is very attractice.(also I could play a 3rd gavony township one of my favorite cards)
I'm gonna test it myself on xmage once they add amonkhent. Can you put your list here?
You have to remember what you give up by cutting black in terms of sideboard as well. No Fulminators, no Pontiff, no discard(not as big but thoughtseize is common) No Sculler/Sin Collecter. Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse. Your matchup against combo becomes abysmal. All you have is, what, canonist and eidolon?
It's worth testing and bringing to events but I'm definitely skeptical.
Scroll up and you'll see tons of discussion.
Ah, that makes more sense. I don't think it's necessarily batter than any of the melira combos(remember you lose the infinite bolster combo cutting black). It'd be interesting if this allow GW company to be a decent deck(instead of just some random thing Todd Stevens does)
Cant coco or chord for ballista. Seems super bad.
Cutting Anafenza is a big no-no. She's hard on the mana but the +1 +1 counters from her is reliably contributes to the beatdown plan(which is our primary plan before combo in most matchups). She also provides infinite bolster triggers with Melira. Never cut her.
I'm gonna veto both your options. It's not worth running *****ty cards that aren't at least decent by themselves for this combo because it's not a particularly strong combo really. What makes it worth playing at all is that the opportunity cost is so low(that all 3 creatures are reasonable by themselves) That's why Duskwatch Recruiter is really the best payoff AFAIK because that card's actually going to do something if you don't assemble the fragile 3 creature combo that's easily disrupted.(Who the hell wants an Invoker or Emrakul stuck in there hand?)
100% do not run more than 1 of each. This is a backup combo because it's far less of an instant game-win than any others. Like I said, it needs to be as low impact as possible on the rest of the list because the payoff isn't instantly winning the game. Hence why I think only 1 of each.(ESPECIALLY only 1 devoted druid, Wall of Roots is an immensely useful card that is miles ahead of Devoted Druid)
Genesis Wave actually crossed my mind. It's cute but the payoff card has to be something that's reasonable to begin with. Genesis Wave is ***** even at 7-9 mana. Duskwatch Recruiter is a reasonable card to play by itself.
Good point.
What, like,
-1 Melira
-1 Wall of Roots I guess
-1 something
+1 Vizier
+1 Devoted Druid
+1 infinite mana payoff?
Assuming the payoff is some sort of infinite damage, it would be infinite dmg that doesn't use the graveyard or the combat step which is something I don't believe we had access to before.
Maybe it'd be something like Duskwatch Recruiter for card advantage? It's not like the cost to play the combo is high. They're all cards that aren't the most unreasonable to play just normally.(I've seen lists get results with Recruiter)
Hmm? What are you talking about? As long as something has attacked or blocked that turn you can flicker it with this. It's not "attacking or blocking".
Edit: full spoiler out
Looks like there's a budget replacement for melira or something
I don't see any reason to play this over Melira though in terms of power reasons.
Interesting effect. Don't see how it's any better than Rallier though.
Unless I missed something, those are the only ones I think could contribute anything to the deck.
I'm inclined to favor it over flickerwisp. It can't hit non-creature permanents but it has flash by itself and it's easier to cast(not that getting WW is the hardest thing). On the other hand, it's much much worse in combat than Flickerwisp. 3 power in the air is a strong clock. 2/2 not so much. I don't know how much of a restriction the attacking/blocking part is for creatures. Seems like an easy requirement to meet in most cases.
Overall the main advantage it has over flickerwisp is not requiring coco to gain instant speed.(which I think is a fairly strong plus)
Way too much trouble for what amounts to a goyf with indestructible and evasion. The sac is super expensive(for modern) and the payoff is ultimately just a beatstick and it's not like we can freely sac something every turn to turn this thing on. I'd rather just play goyf.
In other news, just played against blue moon and I think I gained the most life ever in 1 game from finks without any combo. Drew all 4 Finks, cast all 4 finks, got back a finks with e-wit. 2 Persist triggers for a total of 14 life.
Super weird game 3 in general. Game stalled out until we were both in 7-8 lands. They hardcast Platinum Emperion and a turn later had a Clique. I'm barely surviving off the life gain from all the finks and(at that point) 1 Angel swing. They tapped my board with cryptic and hit me with emperion and dropped me for 2. Dunno why they did that considering it wasn't enough to kill me and they were better served to bounce angel so they could get in with their Clique. I draw and play Courser and my Finks, Angel, and over the course of the next 2-3 turns(Opponent can't attack cause at this point my board is large enough to kill Emperion) my board gets absolutely massive from the life triggers from Courser after ripping multiple fetch lands off the top. After that I naturally drew into Spike Feeder and they conceded to infinite life(Oppo figured I would eventually draw into enough e wits and maelstrom pulses to kill emperion)
During almost the entire lategame I had a Distended Mindbender in hand I couldn't cast due to BB cost and fetching for basics early to play around blood moon.
I also killed a Threads of Disloyalty with Rec Sage. That was fun.
Playing more non-creatures with 4 chord and 4 coco makes my dick shrink.