I really only forsee myself bringing pox in on a few matchups, one coming to mind is affinity, as we have so very few answers to the man lands early on. very often they are forced to keep a 1-2 lander and with spring leaf drum, a dude and the man land, it basically blows them out, while only setting us back a turn or so. the fetches have actually been fine with the basics as there is only 1 white spell main and 2 spells board, i really only need to pull 1 white source. i do like dakmor with pox, but i found the cipt to be kind of annoying. i may throw in a tomb or 2 or maybe even vault, however, this build has been testing quite well on COCKAtrice.
I actually love this deck, as far as card suggestions are concerned, i dunno if anyone has discussed infernal tutor yet, but it seems like the perfect tutor card for this deck. also, necrogen mists seems way worse than lilly, its a good card and all, but i feel lilly is just more versatile for this deck.
this is what im going to be running this Tuesday at my local tournament, i do not own wrench mind atm so im running stupor. i will let you know how it works out.
currently the list is the same except -2 breeding +2 selesnia guildgate. i still am not sold on this mana base and i would like to add another 4 drop. maybe clone is an option. any other suggestions would be helpful, esp. in regards to the mana base...those lands hurt a lot atm
edit:
after testing the deck a while i came to the conclusion it needs some maindeck help vs. control (ie. +1 aetherling -1 angel) and i also cut an advent for another land (there were evolutions that went off where i wasn't ripping a land in the top 3 cards...insane). I also made some changes to the sb as well. so it looks like this now:
while i like the idea of populating 2x per turn, a 2/3 really doesnt seem like its going to have a long lifespan in this meta. and when weighed with the mana cost doesnt seem worth the slot in this deck. i definitely agree tho, the curve is a little too high, i would like to add more 4 drops to the deck if possible.
as for armada wurm, ill have to disagree there, i can't tell you how many times against red where i was very close to death and with a trosti in play and then just dropped him and instantly put them out of the game. gaining ten life and getting 10 power is insane against any red deck, and can easily be achieve by t4. it makes me want to up the count of trostani to 3 or 4 of, but i think thats a little overkill.
So I built this deck mostly on my own because I got bored with B/W Midrange, got a little help from friends on numbers and a card choice or two. The deck is incredibly fun to play and I would love to get some criticism (constructive) on it as it seems solid so far and has very few bad match-up. Here's the deck with tentative SB.
I have thought about planeswalkers and none of them seem to fit atm. at 21 creatures garruk I feel would miss too often and elspeth's -3 seems like a rough sell. primeval bounty is primarily for black decks with heavy removal, they usually have no way to remove it and are quickly overwhelmed by it when untap with it. mistcutter for mono blue and rootborn for epser.
so far i've only brought it to a 21 man tourney last monday and t8'd it going 3-1-1. my only loss was to a jund deck that had to rip 4x stormbreath to kill me.
ive been thinking about just cutting rtb entirely from the deck, as it makes for some awkward t3s sometimes as well as the fact that the card basically looses you a turn and life. I was rocking underworld MD previous to this build but it sucked vs. mono red. with the addition of fiendslayer and alms beast tho i think it can more efficiently run the enchantment. any questions or comments are welcome.
love this idea. definitely initiative is an option, also priest of iroas for the board, detention sphere could be an annoying card? another card to think about is barrage of the expendables to help finish the job or as a response to verdicts, could be better than judges familiar.
Is deadbridge chant better then primeval bounty with ooze being in the deck has anyone tested both? I realize verse opposing oozes the chant gets much worse but at the same time we have a lot of ways to deal with their ooze and then pretty much guranteed getting back our removal or whatever next we put in gy if they cleared it.
I might test both but wanted to hear opinions on why bount>chant and what not.
bounty allows you to trigger it as soon as it comes in most of the time, gets around renounce the guilds, and is extremely hard, once resolved, for any control deck to deal with it. i wouldn't be surprised seeing control/ramp decks maindecking it sooner or later. i tried deadbridge at my last fnm and while it did win me a game i did have to get both of them that i sided in in play for it to be effective enough. ooze being in the deck; i think it is fine with it as you can use ooze to manipulate what you get back into play or to your hand. i however wont be using this card going forward as i feel it is just lack luster, esp. compared to bounty.
The more I play the deck the more I realize the vaults need to be caverns. 1 vault isn't going to sway the game as much as a resolved thragtusk or demon, and it will def fix any mana issues we have. In the control match vault damage is easily replaced by a eot sphinx's and a flashed angel with no instant speed removal to block it makes me want to throw up.
Also vs jund I think the life gain they have makes vault attacks moot. The benefits of caverns outweigh those of the vault I think.
This is the version of the deck I would run right now. Unfortunately I have to wait on the bounties so I am using deadbridge in the board atm. My meta is mostly R/G aggy and Jund, very few control players. I will let you know my results from my next FNM.
I've had an idea on how to improve our matchup against flash and other control decks nagging at me since the night before the PTQ, but it makes us a bit worse against burning earth and might cost too much life. I will be testing out a list over the next week or so that replaces four swamps with watery graves and changes the 2 guildgates out for hinterland harbors so that I can run drownyards in place of mutavaults. Mutavault has done a lot of work for me, but I anticipate a surge in flash for a bit so finding a way to increase percentage in the main deck might be the way to go. Deck will still have 20 black sources and 10 green sources so mana shouldn't be an issue, but we'll see.
this has been my biggest problem with the deck. while the main is not great vs. the flash, amer midrange decks, it IS winnable. although if you see the game start to head south you may want to just scoop and go to game 2 to save time. the lists i have been running as of late have cut the SiB completely for underworld connections which has helped EPICALLY in these match ups, and not totally missed in aggro/midrange matches, not to mention being the nuts vs. jund. as for the sb option for the flash/american decks if been tinkering with deadbridge chant, primeval bounty in conjunction with duress to help with the resolution of said spells. so far bounty seems to be the best option cuz it triggers when you cast the spell or drop the land and can't be removed with renounce the guilds.
I posted this deck a few months back. I'm still having fun playing it and it is pretty consistent. The problem is that I'm still at a loss when it comes to building the sideboard.
I would really appreciate any criticism or thoughts anyone is willing to provide regarding the sideboard, perhaps advice on bad matchups I might encounter.
I got my face so stomped in by a B/G Zombies with the Scar Striped and Blood Artist and Loleth Troll.
So. Much. Pain.
sounds like you didnt pull tragic slip. i just played a weird match vs U/G aggro and got brutalized. it's funny how the mainstream decks get housed by zombies and its variants, but the more abstract decks sometimes have good matchups vs. us.
Jund is basically a bye. They literally for the most part can't deal with messenger or the tempo of the deck. Even if they run pillar in the main it's easily played around with far/away and bloodthrone at your disposal.
Esper/bant control also has problems, esp. with uncounterable team and messenger to back swing after a most likely painful supreme verdict. Their only outs most of the time are a 2x rest in peace in the board or 1-2 of MD terminus. usually you side in notion thief in this match up, side out the seers and 1 ofs to fit the connections.
R/g is a 50/50 shot game one, and depends heavily on the draws and how many pillars they are packing. Game 2, nighthawks come in and help out quite a bit. I've been debating on what gets sided out in this matchup, most likely its the duskmantle seers/1 ultimate price to preserve the life total.
Naya blitz isn't played too much around me, but by the testing ive seen online, their land base ends up losing them the race most of the time. I usually side in nighthawks again.
Junk, ACTII, Aristocrats is probably 60-40 in their favor game one depending on the draws. Lingering souls allows them ample time for setting up so its difficult to punch damage through, esp. since they are also running artists. G2, if you resolve the Illness, the game is almost unwinnable for them. Half their deck comes into play dead and its really hard for them to deal with.
Reanimator is by far imo the hardest matchup, depending on the build. 4 color is usually easier to take out as it takes longer for them to setup. You can do some wacky stuff with your boarding if you want and side in Notion Thief as it turns faithless looting into a mindculling, although I try to keep it simple and just stick to the appetite/crypt plan. Whatever version of the deck though I would highly recommend NOT siding out Evil Twin, as you need a solid answer for a resolved Angel of Serenity. Duskmantle, I also must say, usually has a potential to do high amounts of damage.
4 Fetid Heath
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Raven's Crime
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Duress
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Stupor
3 Path to Exile
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
1 Infernal Tutor
4 Smallpox
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
this is what im going to be running this Tuesday at my local tournament, i do not own wrench mind atm so im running stupor. i will let you know how it works out.
edit:
after testing the deck a while i came to the conclusion it needs some maindeck help vs. control (ie. +1 aetherling -1 angel) and i also cut an advent for another land (there were evolutions that went off where i wasn't ripping a land in the top 3 cards...insane). I also made some changes to the sb as well. so it looks like this now:
4 Forest
4 Temple Garden
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Selesnya Guildgate
1 AEtherling
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Angel of Serenity
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Armada Wurm
3 Rapid Hybridization
3 Detention Sphere
3 Urban Evolution
3 Advent of the Wurm
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Rapid Hybridization
3 Rootborn Defenses
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Detention Sphere
2 Sundering Growth
1 AEtherling
1 Blind Obedience
as for armada wurm, ill have to disagree there, i can't tell you how many times against red where i was very close to death and with a trosti in play and then just dropped him and instantly put them out of the game. gaining ten life and getting 10 power is insane against any red deck, and can easily be achieve by t4. it makes me want to up the count of trostani to 3 or 4 of, but i think thats a little overkill.
4 Plains
4 Forest
4 Temple Garden
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple of Mystery
Dudes
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
3 Angel of Serenity
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Armada Wurm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Rapid Hybridization
3 Detention Sphere
3 Urban Evolution
4 Advent of the Wurm
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Primeval Bounty
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Rapid Hybridization
3 Rootborn Defenses
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Detention Sphere
2 Sundering Growth
I have thought about planeswalkers and none of them seem to fit atm. at 21 creatures garruk I feel would miss too often and elspeth's -3 seems like a rough sell. primeval bounty is primarily for black decks with heavy removal, they usually have no way to remove it and are quickly overwhelmed by it when untap with it. mistcutter for mono blue and rootborn for epser.
so far i've only brought it to a 21 man tourney last monday and t8'd it going 3-1-1. my only loss was to a jund deck that had to rip 4x stormbreath to kill me.
5 Plains
9 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
3 Orzhov Guildgate
4 Desecration Demon
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Alms Beast
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Devour Flesh
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Read the Bones
2 Ultimate Price
2 Pithing Needle
2 Dark Betrayal
3 Glare of Heresy
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Sin Collector
1 Shattering Blow
2 Underworld Connections
ive been thinking about just cutting rtb entirely from the deck, as it makes for some awkward t3s sometimes as well as the fact that the card basically looses you a turn and life. I was rocking underworld MD previous to this build but it sucked vs. mono red. with the addition of fiendslayer and alms beast tho i think it can more efficiently run the enchantment. any questions or comments are welcome.
bounty allows you to trigger it as soon as it comes in most of the time, gets around renounce the guilds, and is extremely hard, once resolved, for any control deck to deal with it. i wouldn't be surprised seeing control/ramp decks maindecking it sooner or later. i tried deadbridge at my last fnm and while it did win me a game i did have to get both of them that i sided in in play for it to be effective enough. ooze being in the deck; i think it is fine with it as you can use ooze to manipulate what you get back into play or to your hand. i however wont be using this card going forward as i feel it is just lack luster, esp. compared to bounty.
Also vs jund I think the life gain they have makes vault attacks moot. The benefits of caverns outweigh those of the vault I think.
12 Swamp
2 Mutavault
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Thragtusk
4 Desecration Demon
2 Disciple of Bolas
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Mutilate
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
2 Putrefy
3 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Underworld Connections
1 Lifebane Zombie
1 Mutilate
1 Vraska the Unseen
3 Duress
3 Golgari Charm
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Primeval Bounty
this has been my biggest problem with the deck. while the main is not great vs. the flash, amer midrange decks, it IS winnable. although if you see the game start to head south you may want to just scoop and go to game 2 to save time. the lists i have been running as of late have cut the SiB completely for underworld connections which has helped EPICALLY in these match ups, and not totally missed in aggro/midrange matches, not to mention being the nuts vs. jund. as for the sb option for the flash/american decks if been tinkering with deadbridge chant, primeval bounty in conjunction with duress to help with the resolution of said spells. so far bounty seems to be the best option cuz it triggers when you cast the spell or drop the land and can't be removed with renounce the guilds.
why aren't you running shrieking affliction?
sounds like you didnt pull tragic slip. i just played a weird match vs U/G aggro and got brutalized. it's funny how the mainstream decks get housed by zombies and its variants, but the more abstract decks sometimes have good matchups vs. us.
Jund is basically a bye. They literally for the most part can't deal with messenger or the tempo of the deck. Even if they run pillar in the main it's easily played around with far/away and bloodthrone at your disposal.
Esper/bant control also has problems, esp. with uncounterable team and messenger to back swing after a most likely painful supreme verdict. Their only outs most of the time are a 2x rest in peace in the board or 1-2 of MD terminus. usually you side in notion thief in this match up, side out the seers and 1 ofs to fit the connections.
R/g is a 50/50 shot game one, and depends heavily on the draws and how many pillars they are packing. Game 2, nighthawks come in and help out quite a bit. I've been debating on what gets sided out in this matchup, most likely its the duskmantle seers/1 ultimate price to preserve the life total.
Naya blitz isn't played too much around me, but by the testing ive seen online, their land base ends up losing them the race most of the time. I usually side in nighthawks again.
Junk, ACTII, Aristocrats is probably 60-40 in their favor game one depending on the draws. Lingering souls allows them ample time for setting up so its difficult to punch damage through, esp. since they are also running artists. G2, if you resolve the Illness, the game is almost unwinnable for them. Half their deck comes into play dead and its really hard for them to deal with.
Reanimator is by far imo the hardest matchup, depending on the build. 4 color is usually easier to take out as it takes longer for them to setup. You can do some wacky stuff with your boarding if you want and side in Notion Thief as it turns faithless looting into a mindculling, although I try to keep it simple and just stick to the appetite/crypt plan. Whatever version of the deck though I would highly recommend NOT siding out Evil Twin, as you need a solid answer for a resolved Angel of Serenity. Duskmantle, I also must say, usually has a potential to do high amounts of damage.
Lemme know if I missed anything.