Spark Double only being able to copy permanents we would control might end up being too much of a draw back, although the ability to protect itself straight off the bat and also to potentially copy Marchesa or any other legend is pretty neat.
Bontu and the Pig I'm also curious about, they're both potentially very impactful.
Yeah, Neoform opens up lines like 3 drop -> Archeomancer, get back Neoform -> Karmic Guide, get back Archeomancer and Neoform, etc, but abusing it requires a lot of mana. I never thought I'd say it but I actually think Pod/Vannifar/Evo/Chord might be about as many of those kinds of effects as one would want and Neoform perhaps doesn't have enough of an upside to add or cut one of the others for.
Having reconsidered Dovin's Veto a bit it might have a place in some Jenara/Derevi lists. Most lists run cards like Path to Exile/Swords/Palace Jailer so handling creature threats isn't a big problem, so having an uncounterable Negate could provide some value.
I've added Vannifar to my list but haven't gotten any games in yet, hopefully that'll change this coming weekend and I'll have some positive feedback to give. I'm very curious to hear about everyone else's experiences with her, too.
Teferi I think is the best out of the lot, he has a solid effect decent abilities, and also passes the Sun Titan test.
I was super excited about Neoform initially but I think a suite of Pod/Evo/Chord/Vannifar is sufficient for me and Neoform is probably overkill and not as good as the others.
I occasionally run Jenara but unfortunately I think I've found myself in pods where I need a more defensive and resilient commander in order to stay alive. I think as a lone threat Jenara sadly gets outclassed by what a lot of my opponents did in the past and I ended up losing due to having an inability to protect myself/not having a threat that matched up well.
Derevi is well-geared toward playing defensively and incentivizing opponents to attack each other and leave you alone because you can blank an attack by tapping a creature or just blocking ad infinitum.
I'd recommend if anyone ever feels like their Jenara deck isn't doing it for them anymore or feels underpowered to try Derevi and see if it helps out. I think if it were up to me I'd still be running Jenara but my playgroup sort of forced me into considering other avenues like Atraxa or Derevi.
@DeadPresident2910, are you solely running the Derevi, Empyrial Tactician list you posted a while back, or do you have a Jenara list in addition to that?
At the moment it's solely Derevi - but at the time I posted the list on the previous page I had used the same list for Jenara minus two cards; Mana Vault and Ashnod's Altar. I can't quite recall what I had in their spots, but those are the two significant changes I remember making.
In case it's helpful this is the current list, almost exactly the same but with a couple of changes:
If I had to switch to Jenara again I think I'd keep the list precisely the same but with the same two changes of Mana Vault and Ashnod's Altar out - probably for Sword of Fire and Ice and Steel of the Godhead, I recall those being quite effective with Jenara. I'm hoping to get a Vannifar some time soon, it's the card from the new set I'm most curious to try out. Unfortunately life's been getting in the way of playing MTG a little bit, but hopefully everyone here is kicking ass and taking names with their Jenara/Derevi lists
I’ve been running Cryptic Command since I fortuitously came across one and I’ve only been impressed.
Admittedly - its usefulness seems to scale as the game goes longer. I’ve used it to bounce a Coat of Arms before damage in tribal decks, tap opponent’s creatures when I’m at risk of being swung for lethal, and I like it with Witness since you can effectively just keep bouncing Witness to keep picking CC up with.
I wouldn’t say it’s seemed like an essential card by any measure, but it’s been really outstanding in several corner cases I’ve found myself in.
Yeah as soon as Vannifar was spoiled I thought it’s going straight into my Derevi list. Synergizes with Derevi’s untap ability, gets resurrected by Reveilark, is Pod redundancy, and can get searched up easily.
Such a good option to run and really looks like a promising card.
I've never run the Mirror entity combo but I kind of reached a similar spot as you did @Kitsune when I run DEN, Image and Palinchron that it ended up happening quite frequently. I think it was as a result of the playgroup getting more optimized as well as me gaining a reputation of winning frequently and people needing to keep resources around to keep me in check.
I think that's the primary reason I looked into diversifying into multiple reliable win-cons because my first or second attempts to end the game are often scuppered because my playgroup knows to prevent it.
Just out of curiosity, how does everyone mostly end up winning their games? Almost always combo - or sometimes just managing to grind out the table because of the impressive recursion and resilience these lists tend to have?
From my own experience when I originally began running Jenara without an infinite combo I almost always survived until I only had one opponent but struggled to close out games, and then I added a Palinchron combo and now more recently I've added Craterhoof as an additional win-con.
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah it seems quite powerful, and if the deck has other potential targeting effects (I just checked and I have Kiora's Follower and Saffi Eriksdotter that I think would also trigger Willbreaker) but I'm not sure if that's sufficient for something cute like Willbreaker. Perhaps another higher CMC threat would be a better choice, or even a high utility creature like Shalai. I really like the flexibility and range of options for this deck.
Does anyone have experience running Willbreaker? I remember using it very briefly when I initially made a Derevi wizard-focused list and it seemed to be quite useful, but I'm not sure how its power level stacks up objectively. I was very impressed with Cataclysmic Gearhulk when I first started running it, but more recently I've noticed I never tutor for it and almost always wish it was something else when I have it in hand, so I'm thinking of potential replacements for it.
Cool to see the list. Since it originally started being discussed a while back I also changed to Derevi because I was rather disappointed with the Atraxa list I made, and was also underwhelmed by Jenara the last few times I played her. The list I came up with seems somewhat similar to yours Zen, albeit quite a lot lower in terms of creature count. I've been enjoying it so far though, it's got a lot of resilience which I like. Here's mine for anyone interested or who needs some ideas:
Shalai is definitely a creature I'd like to make space for, since she seems like the best thing to use in lieu of Jenara as they have such similarities, although Shalai's additional upsides seem significant.
Bontu and the Pig I'm also curious about, they're both potentially very impactful.
Having reconsidered Dovin's Veto a bit it might have a place in some Jenara/Derevi lists. Most lists run cards like Path to Exile/Swords/Palace Jailer so handling creature threats isn't a big problem, so having an uncounterable Negate could provide some value.
I've added Vannifar to my list but haven't gotten any games in yet, hopefully that'll change this coming weekend and I'll have some positive feedback to give. I'm very curious to hear about everyone else's experiences with her, too.
I was super excited about Neoform initially but I think a suite of Pod/Evo/Chord/Vannifar is sufficient for me and Neoform is probably overkill and not as good as the others.
Derevi is well-geared toward playing defensively and incentivizing opponents to attack each other and leave you alone because you can blank an attack by tapping a creature or just blocking ad infinitum.
I'd recommend if anyone ever feels like their Jenara deck isn't doing it for them anymore or feels underpowered to try Derevi and see if it helps out. I think if it were up to me I'd still be running Jenara but my playgroup sort of forced me into considering other avenues like Atraxa or Derevi.
At the moment it's solely Derevi - but at the time I posted the list on the previous page I had used the same list for Jenara minus two cards; Mana Vault and Ashnod's Altar. I can't quite recall what I had in their spots, but those are the two significant changes I remember making.
In case it's helpful this is the current list, almost exactly the same but with a couple of changes:
1x Serra Ascendant
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Saffi Eriksdotter
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Kiora's Follower
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1x Eternal Witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Wood Elves
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Mystic Snake
1x Palace Jailer
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1x Body Double
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Karmic Guide
1x Reveillark
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
1x Sun Titan
1x Palinchron
1x Resolute Archangel
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Mana Vault
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mask of Memory
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Birthing Pod
1x Cryptolith Rite
1x Sylvan Library
1x Aura Shards
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Rhystic Study
1x Wilderness Reclamation
1x Brainstorm
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Arcane Denial
1x Counterspell
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Chord of Calling
1x Beast Within
1x Render Silent
1x Cryptic Command
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Ponder
1x Serum Visions
1x Farseek
1x Nature's Lore
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Alchemist's Refuge
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Breeding Pool
1x Canopy Vista
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Hinterland Harbor
3x Island
3x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
1x Prairie Stream
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Seaside Citadel
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
1x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Temple of Mystery
1x Temple of Plenty
1x Temple of the False God
1x Windswept Heath
1x Yavimaya Coast
If I had to switch to Jenara again I think I'd keep the list precisely the same but with the same two changes of Mana Vault and Ashnod's Altar out - probably for Sword of Fire and Ice and Steel of the Godhead, I recall those being quite effective with Jenara. I'm hoping to get a Vannifar some time soon, it's the card from the new set I'm most curious to try out. Unfortunately life's been getting in the way of playing MTG a little bit, but hopefully everyone here is kicking ass and taking names with their Jenara/Derevi lists
Admittedly - its usefulness seems to scale as the game goes longer. I’ve used it to bounce a Coat of Arms before damage in tribal decks, tap opponent’s creatures when I’m at risk of being swung for lethal, and I like it with Witness since you can effectively just keep bouncing Witness to keep picking CC up with.
I wouldn’t say it’s seemed like an essential card by any measure, but it’s been really outstanding in several corner cases I’ve found myself in.
It’s a solid 1 drop, can generate its own protection, is a Wizard so it synergizes with Sage/Mimic, and most importantly is a solid card draw engine.
Such a good option to run and really looks like a promising card.
I think that's the primary reason I looked into diversifying into multiple reliable win-cons because my first or second attempts to end the game are often scuppered because my playgroup knows to prevent it.
From my own experience when I originally began running Jenara without an infinite combo I almost always survived until I only had one opponent but struggled to close out games, and then I added a Palinchron combo and now more recently I've added Craterhoof as an additional win-con.
1x Mother of Runes
1x Serra Ascendant
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Saffi Eriksdotter
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Wall of Omens
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1x Eternal Witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Wood Elves
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Mystic Snake
1x Palace Jailer
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1x Body Double
1x Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1x Karmic Guide
1x Reveillark
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
1x Sun Titan
1x Palinchron
1x Sphinx of Uthuun
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mask of Memory
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Mimic Vat
1x Birthing Pod
1x Cryptolith Rite
1x Evolutionary Leap
1x Sylvan Library
1x Aura Shards
1x Rhystic Study
1x Nature's Will
1x Brainstorm
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Arcane Denial
1x Counterspell
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Familiar's Ruse
1x Chord of Calling
1x Krosan Grip
1x Render Silent
1x Cryptic Command
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Dig Through Time
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Ponder
1x Serum Visions
1x Farseek
1x Nature's Lore
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Alchemist's Refuge
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Breeding Pool
1x Canopy Vista
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Glacial Fortress
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Hinterland Harbor
3x Island
3x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
1x Prairie Stream
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Seaside Citadel
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
1x Temple of Enlightenment
1x Temple of Mystery
1x Temple of Plenty
1x Temple of the False God
1x Windswept Heath
1x Yavimaya Coast
Shalai is definitely a creature I'd like to make space for, since she seems like the best thing to use in lieu of Jenara as they have such similarities, although Shalai's additional upsides seem significant.