Boo!
This is only a year old, at least give it a chance to hold some value for a while.
It’s like they got totally sick of this game being even somewhat viable as an investment.
That last part is so ridiculous I can’t even come up with a vaguely articulate response.
I genuinely can’t believe people are concerned about this card.
If a card does not do something powerful for its mana cost the turn it comes down, and you have to mention 1-3 other pieces to abuse it, it simply isn’t that strong. Combo piece? Sure - just like dozens of other cards, and at 6cmc no less.
Mikaeus and Mimic work that way with Redcap, yeah. I’d recommend maybe skipping Triskelion just because it doesn’t do much on its own and your slot might be better spent on a higher impact card.
I don’t run Redcap but I do play Glen Elendra Archmage for infinite sac trigger shenanigans, that’s possibly an additional option to consider.
Can you lay this out for me? Do you mean Glen Elendra plus Mikaeus plus sac. outlet?
Yeah, exactly. So Mikaeus, Metallic Mimic (naming Wizards), or Sage of Fables will go infinite along with Glen Elendra and any free sacrifice outlet like Carrion Feeder, Viscera Seer, Phyrexian Altar, or Grimgrin.
As an aside, I don't know if anyone planned on testing Bolas' Citadel - if you are I'd highly recommend it. I've been using it for the past three weeks or so and I've gotten three sessions of 4/5 games in and it's overperformed substantially. It's a little soon to making any sweeping judgments, but it feels like it effectively locks the game out if it resolves people can't address it in a single turn cycle.
I run cards like Viscera Seer, Vampiric Tutor, and Lim-Dul's Vault to smooth things out and so far I tend to end up winning the game the turn I play it quite frequently, usually by playing Gray Merchant and zipping through the deck finding the three clone effects I run. If anyone has been looking for a bomb or an additional way to ensure more wins or value, try the Citadel and see if it's something that works for your list.
Not sure if anyone else is considering it, but I Reanimate’d an opponent's Vilis this afternoon and it made me seriously consider running one as the top end/cheat in creature in my list.
The natural synergy with all the life loss in Marchesa is quite significant. Between Reanimate,Unspeakable Symbol, Treasonous Ogre, Yawgmoth, all the painlands, etc I ended up drawing over half my library by recouping life from Whip of Erebos.
Might have been a one-time success but the card definitely made an impression.
Mikaeus and Mimic work that way with Redcap, yeah. I’d recommend maybe skipping Triskelion just because it doesn’t do much on its own and your slot might be better spent on a higher impact card.
I don’t run Redcap but I do play Glen Elendra Archmage for infinite sac trigger shenanigans, that’s possibly an additional option to consider.
I actually think I cut Azami for the Willbreaker. After playing Azami for some time I realized that the likes of Sylvan Libary/Rhystic Study/Edric, Spymaster of Trest covered my card draw fairly well, but I felt like my threats or win conditions were a bit slim so I included Willbreaker to experiment with a bit.
It's funny you mention Ixidron - I flipped past it in my EDH file earlier this week and I kept thinking I need to try it. I've actually noticed now and then that in situations where I would want to tutor up the Cataclysmic Gearhulk I often have multiple enchantments/artifacts out and I decide against the Gearhulk because I don't want to lose them. Ixidron might actually be a really great substitute, I think I'm going to make that swap and test it out! I used to run Venser and I quite liked him, if I can find an appropriate cut I wouldn't mind including him again, but I think at the time I already had Mystic Snake so I felt comfortable letting Venser go.
I'd highly recommend the Muse if you do feel like you need something that fulfills that function to test out a bit, if I manage to get to my end step with the Muse and a single counter spell in hand games tend to go well for me. I also run Wilderness Reclamation as a similar card, I'm really fond of that type of effect because I tend towards high amounts of instant speed interaction in my list.
Ah yeah, of course - so whatever is on the board beforehand would get the bonus but not the Avenger or tokens. That rules that one out.
Whatever you search for will still get the +/+ and haste, I believe, but EtB triggers will not happen until the entire spell resolves.
I also feel like my 5 drops are a bit boring. 3 graveyard recursion cards live at 5 cmc and then a few "silver bullet" type cards, but I find there isn't really a "goodstuff" card to grab if I don't need either of those. I've tried Thalia's Lancers in the past and, although the tutoring is quite nice, the body just isn't as impressive as I'd like. I'd usually rather just have Reveillark.
Ah okay, cool.
Yeah, I have to admit whenever I'm tutoring for 4/5 drops I always feel like I want to find an effect I don't have, but most 5cmc creatures in Bant aren't amazing, I'm pretty sure the best options have been discussed in threads like this already. I will say after I started playing Seedborn Muse it became the most common 5 drop I find outside of Karmic Guide. I run about 7 counter spells in my list so I'm usually able to protect the Muse and it's quite a game changer, I'd highly recommend anyone who hasn't given it a few games to see if it potentially works for them. It isn't really good stuff in the traditional sense since it doesn't impact the board when it ETBs, but it usually puts me ahead a decent amount.
Just for reference or interest my current list of 5cmc creatures is:
Karmic Guide
Seedborn Muse
Body Double
Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Willbreaker
Reveillark
The utility four drop I ended up adding was Palace Jailer and I've been reasonably impressed with it, almost always grabs a creature and the card draw is never bad.
Ah yeah, of course - so whatever is on the board beforehand would get the bonus but not the Avenger or tokens. That rules that one out.
I managed to get two games in today (admittedly not against the most tuned decks) and used Vannifar in the first and she felt a little awkward. Coincidentally I had Lightning Greaves, but because of the shroud it’s impossible to protect Vannifar and use Derevi’s untap to abuse her ability.
Although she did generate value at the time because nobody could remove her it didn’t feel all that impressive.
In the second game I had the same experience Zen mentioned before of having the opportunity to tutor for her multiple times but it never seemed like that was the optimal play. Useful card for sure but my preliminary feeling is that she might just be a bit slow and clunky.
Slight side note - a card I did try out was Willbreaker and it ended up performing quite well. I often feel like my 5-drops are a little boring and there were a few occasions where finding Willbreaker and using a couple of Derevi triggers to steal problematic creatures was useful.
I’d agree on the cutting GSZ consensus. Chord has just been too valuable in my experience, instant speed shenanigans are just too useful to pass up.
As far as an instant win con with FoD I think Craterhoof , Avenger of Zendikar or Pathbreaker Ibex make the most sense. It’ll have to be a card that gives mass evasion. Something that grants doublestrike could be good for the commander damage route.
Yeah, sadly. I figured it’s possible that as a mid/late game Pod/Vannifar Target she could turn our 1-3 drops into 4/4’s and establish some solid board presence, but really, when the 5 drop slot has stuff like Karmic Guide, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Seedborn Muse, and Willbreaker as competition Oketra kind of falls flat.
Nothing in this set is absolutely begging to be accommodated IMO, not in the same way cards like Vannifar were.
On Friday night I finally had a chance to play some games with my usual group with her in the deck. I ended up slotting her in over Mirari's Wake for the time being to try her out.
I didn't cast her once. I never tutored for her. I had several opportunities, I just never wanted to. Every time I could, it felt like a bad play. In many cases, she was just going to die before I'd get a chance to untap with her, and in others I just had to spend my mana doing other things.
I didn't think it would bug me that much that she needs a turn cycle to be useful, but it really did. In 1v1 it would've been much less of an issue, but in a 4 player game, all people who know my shenanigans, there was no way they were ever going to let me untap with her.
I'm going to try one more session with her, but I'm sad to say that I don't think she'll be making the cut.
I've kind of been worried about that potential drawback for Vannifar. Of all the cards in my deck (and probably any green deck) the highest priority for the table is dealing with me getting Birthing Pod online, so Vannifar will undoubtedly catch the same attention and without haste might mean she's a dead card quite often. If the fine print with her is "Have Greaves available or she's useless" that kind of makes her a bit of an awkward card to include, sadly.
I have yet to test her out but I'm pretty sure your and my playing experiences are rather similar, I generally also tend to have the reputation that whatever plans I might have need to be rapidly disrupted. I'll wait to test it out but I suspect I might have a similar experience, which is kind of sad. But, there are a massive amount of creature tutors already available so it's likely not that much of an issue, but it is a bit of a shame.
Yeah, sadly. I figured it’s possible that as a mid/late game Pod/Vannifar Target she could turn our 1-3 drops into 4/4’s and establish some solid board presence, but really, when the 5 drop slot has stuff like Karmic Guide, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Seedborn Muse, and Willbreaker as competition Oketra kind of falls flat.
Nothing in this set is absolutely begging to be accommodated IMO, not in the same way cards like Vannifar were.
Jenara lists usually playing very high value/quality cards meaning the bar is pretty high to find new additions, but even so Rhonas is quite tame in comparison to Bontu.
It does appear as though the ETB theme is carrying through - we can only hope that Kefnet or Oketra have high impact effects but I’m not optimistic.
Yeah I'm not sure the Double has a place here. Impersonator has a very low floor and very high ceiling in my experience, but the ability to suddenly turn into any nonland permanent is often incredibly strong if one opponent has an impressive creature/artifact/enchantment out.
I'm not sure which creature/PW from the average Jenara list is so great one would replace another Clone-effect for the Double.
After seeing Bontu spoiled I'm very curious about what the rest of the God-Eternal cards look like, particularly if they're a cycle of ETB effects.
That last part is so ridiculous I can’t even come up with a vaguely articulate response.
If a card does not do something powerful for its mana cost the turn it comes down, and you have to mention 1-3 other pieces to abuse it, it simply isn’t that strong. Combo piece? Sure - just like dozens of other cards, and at 6cmc no less.
Yeah, exactly. So Mikaeus, Metallic Mimic (naming Wizards), or Sage of Fables will go infinite along with Glen Elendra and any free sacrifice outlet like Carrion Feeder, Viscera Seer, Phyrexian Altar, or Grimgrin.
As an aside, I don't know if anyone planned on testing Bolas' Citadel - if you are I'd highly recommend it. I've been using it for the past three weeks or so and I've gotten three sessions of 4/5 games in and it's overperformed substantially. It's a little soon to making any sweeping judgments, but it feels like it effectively locks the game out if it resolves people can't address it in a single turn cycle.
I run cards like Viscera Seer, Vampiric Tutor, and Lim-Dul's Vault to smooth things out and so far I tend to end up winning the game the turn I play it quite frequently, usually by playing Gray Merchant and zipping through the deck finding the three clone effects I run. If anyone has been looking for a bomb or an additional way to ensure more wins or value, try the Citadel and see if it's something that works for your list.
The natural synergy with all the life loss in Marchesa is quite significant. Between Reanimate,Unspeakable Symbol, Treasonous Ogre, Yawgmoth, all the painlands, etc I ended up drawing over half my library by recouping life from Whip of Erebos.
Might have been a one-time success but the card definitely made an impression.
I don’t run Redcap but I do play Glen Elendra Archmage for infinite sac trigger shenanigans, that’s possibly an additional option to consider.
It's funny you mention Ixidron - I flipped past it in my EDH file earlier this week and I kept thinking I need to try it. I've actually noticed now and then that in situations where I would want to tutor up the Cataclysmic Gearhulk I often have multiple enchantments/artifacts out and I decide against the Gearhulk because I don't want to lose them. Ixidron might actually be a really great substitute, I think I'm going to make that swap and test it out! I used to run Venser and I quite liked him, if I can find an appropriate cut I wouldn't mind including him again, but I think at the time I already had Mystic Snake so I felt comfortable letting Venser go.
I'd highly recommend the Muse if you do feel like you need something that fulfills that function to test out a bit, if I manage to get to my end step with the Muse and a single counter spell in hand games tend to go well for me. I also run Wilderness Reclamation as a similar card, I'm really fond of that type of effect because I tend towards high amounts of instant speed interaction in my list.
Ah okay, cool.
Yeah, I have to admit whenever I'm tutoring for 4/5 drops I always feel like I want to find an effect I don't have, but most 5cmc creatures in Bant aren't amazing, I'm pretty sure the best options have been discussed in threads like this already. I will say after I started playing Seedborn Muse it became the most common 5 drop I find outside of Karmic Guide. I run about 7 counter spells in my list so I'm usually able to protect the Muse and it's quite a game changer, I'd highly recommend anyone who hasn't given it a few games to see if it potentially works for them. It isn't really good stuff in the traditional sense since it doesn't impact the board when it ETBs, but it usually puts me ahead a decent amount.
Just for reference or interest my current list of 5cmc creatures is:
Karmic Guide
Seedborn Muse
Body Double
Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Willbreaker
Reveillark
The utility four drop I ended up adding was Palace Jailer and I've been reasonably impressed with it, almost always grabs a creature and the card draw is never bad.
I managed to get two games in today (admittedly not against the most tuned decks) and used Vannifar in the first and she felt a little awkward. Coincidentally I had Lightning Greaves, but because of the shroud it’s impossible to protect Vannifar and use Derevi’s untap to abuse her ability.
Although she did generate value at the time because nobody could remove her it didn’t feel all that impressive.
In the second game I had the same experience Zen mentioned before of having the opportunity to tutor for her multiple times but it never seemed like that was the optimal play. Useful card for sure but my preliminary feeling is that she might just be a bit slow and clunky.
Slight side note - a card I did try out was Willbreaker and it ended up performing quite well. I often feel like my 5-drops are a little boring and there were a few occasions where finding Willbreaker and using a couple of Derevi triggers to steal problematic creatures was useful.
As far as an instant win con with FoD I think Craterhoof , Avenger of Zendikar or Pathbreaker Ibex make the most sense. It’ll have to be a card that gives mass evasion. Something that grants doublestrike could be good for the commander damage route.
I've kind of been worried about that potential drawback for Vannifar. Of all the cards in my deck (and probably any green deck) the highest priority for the table is dealing with me getting Birthing Pod online, so Vannifar will undoubtedly catch the same attention and without haste might mean she's a dead card quite often. If the fine print with her is "Have Greaves available or she's useless" that kind of makes her a bit of an awkward card to include, sadly.
I have yet to test her out but I'm pretty sure your and my playing experiences are rather similar, I generally also tend to have the reputation that whatever plans I might have need to be rapidly disrupted. I'll wait to test it out but I suspect I might have a similar experience, which is kind of sad. But, there are a massive amount of creature tutors already available so it's likely not that much of an issue, but it is a bit of a shame.
Nothing in this set is absolutely begging to be accommodated IMO, not in the same way cards like Vannifar were.
Jenara lists usually playing very high value/quality cards meaning the bar is pretty high to find new additions, but even so Rhonas is quite tame in comparison to Bontu.
It does appear as though the ETB theme is carrying through - we can only hope that Kefnet or Oketra have high impact effects but I’m not optimistic.
I'm not sure which creature/PW from the average Jenara list is so great one would replace another Clone-effect for the Double.
After seeing Bontu spoiled I'm very curious about what the rest of the God-Eternal cards look like, particularly if they're a cycle of ETB effects.